Haakon_Stormbrow Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 ok thought i'd give this it's own topic, i discovered after other peoples assistance that the rules under thunderwolf mount state quite clearly that a character is who is mounted on the beast is subject to these rules.... it does not state that these are the rules for thunderwolf calvary units, nor does the entry refer yo to read page 62. thunderwolves are just a unit which have the rending special rule if you give them a thunder hammer on top of that, suddenly you have a str 9 unit with 5 attacks that can hurt armour 18. but more importantly you can give them a frost blade and have 6 str 6 rending attacks on the charge, that is pretty scary to a dreadnaught especially since any roll of a 6 is an auto penetrate, but even more effective is that good old cheesy trick us wolves did with a machine spirit controlled assault cannon.... you re-roll any non 6's with 5 str 5 attacks that rend thats .85 penetrates on average with a further .67 pens after re-rolls, statistically giving 1.52 pen hits vs the frost blades 1.00 penetrates if anyone can find it written anywhere that the thunderwolf calvary units rending and special weapons do not stack then gve me the page number where to find this! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 *Shrugs* I wont use it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2137947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
antique_nova Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 fun as they may be, there literally sw blood crushers without the invulnerable save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2137957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Howland Greywolf Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Yes but why would you need rending on a strength 10 weapon that ingnors armour? :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2137979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
40k Junkie Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 pg. 62 "...rending special rule in close combat with any attack that does not use a special close combat weapon." Read from front to back, and play from back to front. You are reading the rulebook backwards for game play purposes. All of the unit rules are in the back pages 81-94. Carification of wargear is found on pages 57-64, and only Character specific abilities are list under their profiles in the fluff description sections, pages 24-56. Thunderwolves are not special characters, and possess no special abilities therefore you find their rule/ usage description under the wargear section. This "trick" would not fly in a tournament. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2137995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
antique_nova Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 and praise be the emperor, but personally i don't think there competitive anyway. fun but not competitive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2137999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haakon_Stormbrow Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 it quite clearly states "a character with a thunderwolf mount get's the following stat increases, and has rending, this does not stack with other weapon abilities" if they were using thunderwolf mounts under the front or back entry it would sate that they ride thunderwolf mounts and the stats are included above, so either i still get +1 s, +1 t and + 1a to my thunderwolves or thunderwolf calvary are there own entry and as such can have rending frostblades. End of story, sorry 40k junkie you have not disproved this, and therefore rending is stacked with weapon abilities until such time as a faq is released to say otherwise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2138006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjugin Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Yes but why would you need rending on a strength 10 weapon that ingnors armour? :lol: Yeah, rending or not does not make ANY differnece when you have strenght 10 and ignore armour saves. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2138023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haakon_Stormbrow Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 yeah exactly thunder hammers don't need it but the point is more for the potential on frostblades, they are the weapon which would benefit from rending as it would turn each twc who took one into a combat equivalent of an assault cannon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2138029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenmichi Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 it quite clearly states "a character with a thunderwolf mount get's the following stat increases, and has rending, this does not stack with other weapon abilities"if they were using thunderwolf mounts under the front or back entry it would sate that they ride thunderwolf mounts and the stats are included above, so either i still get +1 s, +1 t and + 1a to my thunderwolves or thunderwolf calvary are there own entry and as such can have rending frostblades. End of story, sorry 40k junkie you have not disproved this, and therefore rending is stacked with weapon abilities until such time as a faq is released to say otherwise. You misquoted the codex. It says, "...and has the Rending special rule in close combat with any attack that does not use a special close combat weapon." This includes: thunder hammers, power fists, frost blades, frost axes, and even simple power weapons. Page 42 of the BRB gives a nice clear list of special close combat weapons. Ergo, 40k Junkie is correct and did disprove your supposed loophole. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2138030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haakon_Stormbrow Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 it quite clearly states "a character with a thunderwolf mount get's the following stat increases, and has rending, this does not stack with other weapon abilities"if they were using thunderwolf mounts under the front or back entry it would sate that they ride thunderwolf mounts and the stats are included above, so either i still get +1 s, +1 t and + 1a to my thunderwolves or thunderwolf calvary are there own entry and as such can have rending frostblades. End of story, sorry 40k junkie you have not disproved this, and therefore rending is stacked with weapon abilities until such time as a faq is released to say otherwise. You misquoted the codex. It says, "...and has the Rending special rule in close combat with any attack that does not use a special close combat weapon." This includes: thunder hammers, power fists, frost blades, frost axes, and even simple power weapons. Page 42 of the BRB gives a nice clear list of special close combat weapons. Ergo, 40k Junkie is correct and did disprove your supposed loophole. nope it states that "a character who is mounted on" ergo a thunderwolf calvary unit is not subject to the rule yo stated, nor does it state anywhere in the book that it follows those rules. they are merely a unit with rending and calvary as their unit type, they have nothing to do with the entry on page 62 therefor, you sill haven't proven anything, as your referring to a rule for character that are given an upgrade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2138048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldenhaller Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 lol...this one again the confusion comes between thunderwolf cav and thunderwolf mounts. The cav have rending which states that they cannot have it with special attacks whereas the mount does not have this stipulation. It's the terminators not having terminator arounr thrpough and through but while it exists I'm happy for my wolf lord to have 6 str 6 rending attacks against vehicles....aginst everything else it's a little overkill ~O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2138052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haakon_Stormbrow Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 actually it's the other way around oldenhaller i'm saying characters can't combine rending and weapons but units of thunderwolves can. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2138068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldenhaller Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 lol...oops yeah - it's one way or t'other :D silly either way but ftw ~O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2138072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenmichi Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 it quite clearly states "a character with a thunderwolf mount get's the following stat increases, and has rending, this does not stack with other weapon abilities"if they were using thunderwolf mounts under the front or back entry it would sate that they ride thunderwolf mounts and the stats are included above, so either i still get +1 s, +1 t and + 1a to my thunderwolves or thunderwolf calvary are there own entry and as such can have rending frostblades. End of story, sorry 40k junkie you have not disproved this, and therefore rending is stacked with weapon abilities until such time as a faq is released to say otherwise. You misquoted the codex. It says, "...and has the Rending special rule in close combat with any attack that does not use a special close combat weapon." This includes: thunder hammers, power fists, frost blades, frost axes, and even simple power weapons. Page 42 of the BRB gives a nice clear list of special close combat weapons. Ergo, 40k Junkie is correct and did disprove your supposed loophole. nope it states that "a character who is mounted on" ergo a thunderwolf calvary unit is not subject to the rule yo stated, nor does it state anywhere in the book that it follows those rules. they are merely a unit with rending and calvary as their unit type, they have nothing to do with the entry on page 62 therefor, you sill haven't proven anything, as your referring to a rule for character that are given an upgrade. So what you're saying is the Thunderwolf gets rending? Okay, I can agree with that. Except the Thunderwolf needs a rider to take the weapon, who does not get rending. Plus, a cavalry unit needs a rider to be a cavalry unit, otherwise it's a pack of large Fenrisian Wolves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2138086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haakon_Stormbrow Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 no there fluff states the rider and wolf are bonded, psychicly i think, anyway the point is no where does it state calvary needs a rider, do ferissian wolves which are calvary have riders? NO! stop reading them as a space wolf on a big wolf. they are a single entity which has rending in combat counts as having a boltpistol and ccw for attack purposes and may be given a thunder hammer, frost blade, power weapon, power fist or wolf claw as well as a storm shield or plasma pistol. they do not use the entry on page 62 at all as page 62 is only for equipment upgrades. just because a wolf lord can intimidate a thunderwolf into letting him ride it, doesn't mean it is the same as someone who has bonded with his wolf for life. Canis wolfborn also is listed as per the thunder calvary, he gets rending str 5 wolf claws. as his is not listed in equipment. just as thunder wolf calvary do not have thunder wolf mount in there equipment section! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2138095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 If your LGS let's you do that, then rock on. No need to convince the rest of us. Enjoy your glory. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2138107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I'm sorry, why are we still debating this when it clearly states that rending works when NOT using a special CCW? :D ---------- Edit, I see now there is a distinction between upgrade and the TW entry. I would say you are correct from a RAW perspective. However, I would not go into battle using it because I don't think that is what they intended. However, if my opponent uses loopholes are insists I ashere to loopholes that work against me, I'd gladly use it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2138109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenmichi Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Well, I don't see it that way but okay. I'm betting this will be FAQ'd soon enough, anyway, as I don't think average TWC were meant to have rending attacks with special weapons (Canis being the exception). I'm sorry, why are we still debating this when it clearly states that rending works when NOT using a special CCW? :D That's what I'm wondering but apparently it's not as clear cut as both the codex and BRB want us to think it is? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2138111 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I'm starting to rethink my comments as I peruse the dex. GW is determined to confuse us.... 1. Upgrade thunderwolves may not use rending with special CCW 2. Thunderwolf entry can 3. Canis entry can 4. not sw codex, but Codex Daemons allows Skulltaker to rend with special(just to point out not unprecedented) 5. Not Sw codex, but Shrike can rend with lightning claws. (just to point out not unprecedented) So as far as I know, GW is providing us wiht more examples of rending with special vs not. I can only suspect that it is either an error on the upgrade entry, error on TWC entry, or there for balance. So what does all this mean?????? FAQ update needed Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2138131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 So what does all this mean?????? FAQ update needed Yep. Doesn't make sense that a mount and cavalry work so different (possible rending special weapons, strength 10 power fists for the cavalry, 9 for mounts, Instant death issues). Give a FAQ to make things make sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2138134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispy Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 It's pretty straight forward - twc don't have the mounts as their wargear, thefore they aren't subject to it's limitAtions. They have the rending special rule with no caveats. Whether this is an oversight or not doesn't matter, as this reads pretty clearly. The only place I think this helps you is if you need a little extra umph in tank killing. Actually makes frost blades a better all around choice - s6, with the ability to glance 13 on a roll of 6. With enough luck, they COULD penetrate a land raider. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2138365 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obeisance Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 It states the rending only applies to normal weapons. Sorry, no rending Runeswords kthnx. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2138375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Yes but why would you need rending on a strength 10 weapon that ingnors armour? :P Yeah, rending or not does not make ANY differnece when you have strenght 10 and ignore armour saves. :P Actually, Rending DOES make a difference. Not against infantry, but against vehicles...as when you rend, you get to do an additional D3 worth of armor penetration. So instead of getting 1d6, you get 1d6+1d3 of armor pen. (Check the Rending entry in the BRB. <3) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2138381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Yes but why would you need rending on a strength 10 weapon that ingnors armour? :P Yeah, rending or not does not make ANY differnece when you have strenght 10 and ignore armour saves. :) Actually, Rending DOES make a difference. Not against infantry, but against vehicles...as when you rend, you get to do an additional D3 worth of armor penetration. So instead of getting 1d6, you get 1d6+1d3 of armor pen. (Check the Rending entry in the BRB. <3) Which on a Strength 10 weapon doesn't matter as the top armor is 14. If you roll the rend, you've already got a penetrating hit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180574-rending-thunder-hammers-yes-they-do-exist/#findComment-2138405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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