rending thunder hammers - yes they do exist!

[Gentlemanloser]

By RAW, it doesn't, and wouldn't.

 

They can fleet and have a 12" charge only becuase they are listed as Cavalry in thier unit type, and not infantry. They can Rend with any close combat weapon as that's one of thier special rules, like ATSKNF and Counter Attack.

 

They do not, by RAW, ride a 'Thunderwolf Mount', as they do not unlike thier Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, CCW and Frag/Krak Grenades, have that specific Wargear.

 

A Thunderwolf Mounts Wargear rules would carry over to them in the exact way TDA or a Runic Weapon would. They don't, as they don't have them.

 

Now, I'm sure most people expect it *should*, and will probably be FAQed that way. But currently, unless you houserule it, TWC don't have a Thuderwolf Mount (which if they did, they would only have 1W....) and Can rend with any Close Combat attack, regardless of Weapon.

 

IC's on TW Mounts are still ID at S8. It says it blck and white in the Main Rule Book;

 

Some models can gain improvements to their Toughness by using wargear items like bikes, Chaos Marks, etc. When it comes to instant Death, such bonuses do not count

 

A TW Mount is wargear that gives a bonus to T. It does *not* count for ID protection, no mattr if the wargear says adds to profile. That means nothing.

 

TWC and Canis, do not have any Wargear that adds to their T, their T5 is natural.

 

Weapons that double S work exactly the same way, for the same reason. TWC TH are S10. IC with TWM TH are S9.

 

You can play it any way you like, but you'd be using a Houserule until this is FAQed any differently.

[Toasterfree]

By RAW, it doesn't, and wouldn't.

 

They can fleet and have a 12" charge only becuase they are listed as Cavalry in thier unit type, and not infantry. They can Rend with any close combat weapon as that's one of thier special rules, like ATSKNF and Counter Attack.

 

They do not, by RAW, ride a 'Thunderwolf Mount', as they do not unlike thier Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, CCW and Frag/Krak Grenades, have that specific Wargear.

 

A Thunderwolf Mounts Wargear rules would carry over to them in the exact way TDA or a Runic Weapon would. They don't, as they don't have them.

 

Now, I'm sure most people expect it *should*, and will probably be FAQed that way. But currently, unless you houserule it, TWC don't have a Thuderwolf Mount (which if they did, they would only have 1W....) and Can rend with any Close Combat attack, regardless of Weapon.

 

IC's on TW Mounts are still ID at S8. It says it blck and white in the Main Rule Book;

 

Some models can gain improvements to their Toughness by using wargear items like bikes, Chaos Marks, etc. When it comes to instant Death, such bonuses do not count

 

A TW Mount is wargear that gives a bonus to T. It does *not* count for ID protection, no mattr if the wargear says adds to profile. That means nothing.

 

TWC and Canis, do not have any Wargear that adds to their T, their T5 is natural.

 

Weapons that double S work exactly the same way, for the same reason. TWC TH are S10. IC with TWM TH are S9.

 

You can play it any way you like, but you'd be using a Houserule until this is FAQed any differently.

 

wow then you disagree with every GW employee that I have spoken to about it. i you add to you BASE PROFILE, you get double strength based on your BASE! not doubled and then based. it adds +1 to your base toughness, not like a bike that gives yo extra protection. therefore you do not ID to s8. you get to base atk, not 4+1+1 (base TWM dual weaps) you are 5+1 (base plus dual weaps). based on just that you are wrong

[Gentlemanloser]

You're disagreeing with the games main rulebook.

 

Not me.

 

But if you feel the main rulebook is wrong, more power to you.

 

For ID protection, increases from wargear to Toughness aren't taken into account. I've shown the passage above.

The TW Mount is a peice of wargear.

 

You can't disagree with that.

[Toasterfree]

but unlike a bike it modifies your BASE toughness. ID goes by base toughness

[Gentlemanloser]

No.

 

It goes by Toughness *not* modyified by any wargear. Call that 'base' if you want. Still, it doesn't include the TW Mount.

 

It's all there in the passage I quote above.

 

Caling the TW Mount an increase to the Profile means absolutley nothing. It's a wargear increases, that is ignored, by the BRB, for ID protection.

[the witch king]

I would have to agree with the op on the rending issue for thunderwolf cavalry. Atm as it stands the rules read clearly that even with special weapons they can still rend. Wether it is intentional or not remains to be seen, but it could be that characters with access to sagas had to be limited a bit after playtesting them on TW.

 

As for the toughness issue. The thunderwolf cavalery have a bas toughness of 5 on their stat line so for now i am of the opinion that they are only IK by strength 10, characters toughness however is still modified my the mount and so their base statline toughness of 4 is what counts towards ID. Again that may change with an FAQ but untill then thats my interpritation of the rules.

 

Edit* having just said that, i am reminded of the necron lords destroyer body taking him to toughness 6 and therefore making him immune to ID. I dont have a necron codex on me so i could simply be remembering that the wrong way but I am nearly sure that it was the case. anyway i am just playing devils advocate to my previous line.

[Silvtalon]

I spent some time looking over three key areas very carefully from fluff to war gear and abilities. Cross Referencing with the core codex as well. I think I figured it out.

 

Lets look at the rules for a few things in the core rule book first.

Core Rule book Pg 42

Rending weapons

If a model armed with a rending close combat weapon rolls a 6 on any rolls to wound in close combat, the opponent automatically suffers a wound, reguardless of its toughness. These wounds count as wounds from a power weapon. Against vehicles, a armor penetration roll of 6 allows a further d3 to be rolled, with the result added to the total score.

 

Side note: Notice the entry states Rending weapons......

 

Core Rule book page 42

Thunder hammer

Read it. It states there is no rending effect added or the weapon. But... (explained later)

 

Core Rule book page 42

Power firsts + Power weapons

Read it. It states there is no rending effect added or on the weapon. But... (explained later)

 

Now lets look at the Space wolves Codex. Take note of the power weapon entries we have choices from. None of them state they have rending on them so were all clear on that. But....

 

Lets look at Canis wolfborn.

In his HQ profile take a look at his weapons. He is using two wolfclaws these are power weapons with the ability to re-roll to hit or To-wound. We know wolfclaws normally do not give rending but if you look at special rules. You notice Rending... Thus his wolfclaws can rend! All attacks he does is classified as power weapon attacks that do rend! Which in this case rend is only useful vs vehicles.

 

Reading fluff, canis rides upon the greatest of thunderwolves. Thus he has a affinity with them due to his upbringing. In a sense he is a thunderwolf rider a character that has gained the affinity and respect of his wolfkin.

 

Now lets look at Thunderwolves very carefully.

In Fast attack profile under thunderwolf calavry we look at wargear. We will notice they are equipped with a close combat weapon and bolt pistol. These are basic weapons with no special rules or abilities attached to them. An they are under the wargear profile only...

 

Now You notice that Special rules profile is seperate from that of wargear? These are additions that your thunderwolf calavry has! These are abilities! Remember when we looked at the core rule book (quoted above) It said rending weapons? So.. Is this rending a weapon? No... The rending in Thunderwolf Calavry is a ability! Thus the ability is granted to ANY WEAPON you give them! Same as Canis Wolfborn whom has rending as a special rule!

 

Thunderwolf Calavry is the mini-me verisons of Canis Wolfborn!

 

 

Now lets look at the Wolflord and Iron Priest upgrade for a thunderwolf mount.

Thunderwolf Mount pg 62 Space Wolves Codex

Only the bravest and most skilled have what it takes to break in one of these legendary thunderwolves. One who has done rides to war upon a growling, hissing mountain of muscle, hatred and sybernetics eager to slaughter all before it. A character with a thunderwolf mount has the unit type CAVALRY, Adds +1str, +1 toughness, and +1 attack to his profile, and has the rending special rule in close combat with any attack that does not use a special close combat weapon. However, he may only join thunderwolf cavalry or fenrisian wolve units - anything esle is asking for trouble!

 

Lets break this down so we can understand it.. Its pretty clear in what it states here.

1) You get +1str +1 toughness +1 attack, And become cavalry. Can only Join Thunderwolf's and Fenrisian wolves.

2) You get rending special rule. (But with a balance limiter that only applies to the IP and WL or any character taking this upgrade) In short, Rending special Rule can not be used with a special close combat weapon.

 

The mount upgrade option as wargear was given a limiter intentionaly to ensure that the custom built characters are not insainly over powered. In addition if you look at the fluff read carefully the mount is BROKEN IN. The character didn't earn an affinity (seams to be more like respect) like the thunderwolf riders and Canis wolfborn has archived. The Broken in mount was earned though domination and force.

 

 

In short...

Canis Wolfborn Has rending power weapon attacks

Thunderwolf Cavalry does in fact have rending power and non-power weapon attacks.

Character choosing a thunderwolf mount DOES NOT have power weapon rending attacks (special weapons). But DOES HAVE rending attacks with non-special close combat weapons.

 

 

Sorry if this seams a bit long winded to get the point across, but I had to cross ref a lot of information to ensure I had a good post for you to review. The special Rules is what caught my attention as they work differently then wargear. Wargear is simply put what you see is what you get. While special rules adds onto character as abilities or skills that are always active unless otherwise stated with conditioners.

 

The original poster of this thread is completely correct. You can have a rending Thunderhammer, Frost blade, Powerfist and power weapon. In a thunderwolf Cavalry squad, the rending part is only useful against vehicles. So I hope my research was useful.