Is a model in a transport in "base contact" with it?

[thade]

My presumption is No. However, it occurred to me that it'd be *very* nice if, say, my techmarine could repair my LR without having to hop outside, and I'm not sure, so here I have posed the question.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Frosty the Pyro]

I beleive last time this came up the concensous was no.

[thade]

I had done some digging but failed to find a relevant tread. I'll dig again. =) If anyone knows it offhand, I'd appreciate a link.

 

I'll stick with my presumption of "No" for now. <_< Thanks!

[igotsmeakabob!!]

I seem to recall "no" as well.

[gibbro]

Original topic Techmarine in Vehicle

 

I almost hate to bring this topic back, but I wasn't convinced by the arguments presented. There is more evidence to suggest that models in a transport are actually in the transport, even though they don't fit in the transport.

Because he is NOT considered "in" the tank. He is considered "off the board".

This is just not true. Here is where it says the models are. BRB 66 "...transport may carry a single unit...", "... infantry models may embark in transports.", "doors, ramps and hatches that passengers use to get in and out of the vehicle.", "... a unit can embark onto a vehicle...". Carry, embark, transport? What do they mean? Carry- to contain and direct the course of. Embark- to go onboard a vehicle for transportation. Transport- a ship for carrying soldiers or military equipment. (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary 10ed.) I can 't physically place 10 marines inside a Rhino, so does that mean per RAW I can't embark because the vehicle can't 'carry' them or they can't 'embark' onto the vehicle? No, "...it is removed from the table and placed aside", but you still "make note or otherwise mark[] that the unit is being transported." per the entry on Embarking. That's a whole lot of 'it's in the vehicle' to balance against one sentence that says 'off the table', that still references that they are inside.

 

If you could declare BtB from the hull then embarked units could take close combat attacks against enemies that are assaulting the vehicle, and would lock those enemies in CC (as they are in BtB with an enemy unit).

Untrue. Imagine you have 10 marines in a straight line with all bases touching and directly behind them is another 10 marines in a straight line touching the first. The front line is assaulted by Chaos Marines who make it into BtB with the front line but not the back. This means the front line is in BtB with the Chaos Marines, and the front line is in BtB with the 2nd line, but the Chaos Marines are not in BtB with the 2nd line. The Techmarine is in BtB with the vehicle, the assaulters are in BtB with the vehicle, but the assaulters are not in BtB with the Techmarine.

 

So how then do you determine BtB? BtB is a distance/range of 0" from one model to another model. Under Embarking BRB 66, it states, "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull." In this case we are measuring the distance of BtB between the embarked Techmarine and the hull, which is a distance of 0". This fulfills the requirement of BtB.

 

If someone asked you what was in your Land Raider you wouldn't respond, "Nothing, because the unit embarked in the Land Raider isn't on the table.", you say "There's Assault Terminators in there and they're going to kill you." I need a better reason to believe that my Techmarine is not actually inside my transport when it is in fact, inside my transport.

[Grey Mage]

See and thats my common sense approach to the idea- its in the transport, so its in base to base.

 

But then, I believe Ive already contributed to this topic.

[Isiah]

See and thats my common sense approach to the idea- its in the transport, so its in base to base.

 

If he's inside he can't be in B2B :lol:. But in base contact with the vehicle possibly.

[Grey Mage]

See and thats my common sense approach to the idea- its in the transport, so its in base to base.

 

If he's inside he can't be in B2B :D. But in base contact with the vehicle possibly.

BtB, BIB, *shrugs* :D.

[Isiah]

Reading this again and the linked topic I say no he can't mend the vehicle when embarked. Why?

 

Well the only snag I can see is that importantly he isn't physically in the vehicle so technically as a pair of models they aren't in base contact (as all embarked models must be taken off the table). But of course we know he is in there gamewise as he's embarked in it.

 

Rules are clear though – base contact – and he cannot as a model be both touching the inside of his transport and be off table at the same time.

 

Cheers

I

[Race Bannon]

Regardless of rules, could you fix the fender of a car from the inside? :D

[thade]

Regardless of rules, could you fix the fender of a car from the inside? ;)

 

This is where I find myself leaning when I try to justify the techmarine not counting as in BtB contact with the tank.

[gibbro]

If he's inside he can't be in B2B . But in base contact with the vehicle possibly

Hence the definition of BtB = 0", but that is not diffinatively defined in the BRB. I might conceed my argument to BiB vs BtB. Excellent point Isiah. However, while there is no distinction of distance of BtB, there is also no distinction of a difference between Bib and BtB. So further evidence is needed to set preceedence for one or the other.

 

Pg 11 BRB "MODELS IN THE WAY: A model may not move into or throught the space occupied by another model(which is represented by it base or by its hull) or through a gap between friendly models that is smaller than its own base (or hull) size." This means that no model may overlap another model for any reason (or in our case be base in base or base on base).

 

Pg 66 BRB "EMBARKING: A unit can embark onto a vehicle by moving each model to within 2" of its access points in the Movement phase." Embarking is defined as boarding a vehicle for transportation as it is mentioned many times on pg 66 alone. Embarking onto the vehicle is an exception to the MODELS IN THE WAY rule.

 

Now comes the murky part. As embarking is clearly an exception to the placement of the models you have a situation that may have consquences that can't be resolved without further exceptions.

 

FIRE POINTS details how the unit may shoot or use a psychic power, ACCESS POINTS details how the models embark and disembark, EMBARKING and DISEMBARKING detail movement of both the vehicle and the unit inside. But is the unit in BtB? It is unclear but perhaps there is a clue within some of these exceptions.

 

The elephant in the room is this statement, "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull." The one time you measure from the vehicle in regards to passengers inside is shooting. "... a single passenger may fire out of a fire point...[r]anges and line of sight are measured from the fire point itself." This is an action that players must measure a range involving the embarked unit, but was excepted by the EMBARKING rule yet clarified by the FIRE POINTS rule. As we must accept all rules governing the rulebook and codex we would therefore follow the "unit measuring rule" under EMBARKING for everything that is not shooting. The distance between models is defined by measuring in units of inches, whether it is 60", 6" or touching (BtB). Per the MODELS IN THE WAY touching is as close as two models can come and never any closer. Embarking is an exception to this rule, allowing bases to overlap, and any noticable differences between the models touching and the models overlapping are defined on pg 66-67 BRB. No exception is given on distance between the embarked unit and the transport meaning we only have the rules of measuring distances to go by. Pg 3 BRB "When meauring distances between two units, use the closest models as your reference points, ...o for example if any model in a unit is within 2' of an enemy unit/model, the unit aid to be within 2" of that enemy unit/model." If outside the vehicle you measure from the Techmarine to the hull, this distance must be 0" to repair. If inside the vehicle you measure from the hull (this is the techmarine following the embarked measuring rule) to the hull which is also a distance of 0".

 

The models are inside the transport, all exceptions to this phenomeon are outlined on pg 66-67. Unless otherwise stated you can only follow all other rules as outlined in the rulebook and codex. This means that the models inside the transport are in base contact with the transport itself as this is as close as models are allowed to be. The stipulatation that models are removed is in the same sentence with the stipulation that the unit is being transported. This is the only sentence that gives placement of the models themselves which is ambiguious by itself, but when put in context with all the rules governing Transport Vehicles clearly puts the models inside the transport in gaming terms, which is why there are exceptions to the rules governing shooting, moving and measuring distance.

[gibbro]

Regardless of rules, could you fix the fender of a car from the inside? ;)

Can I in the year 2009? No. Can a techmarine in the year 40,000? I have no idea. 1000 years ago could you talk to a person in real time on the other side of the earth? No. Can you now? Yes. This is a made-up game in an incomprehensible time frame and to justify a ruling based on what you can and can not do in the present is laughable. Can you travel across the galaxy to another planet? No. Can Space Marines? Yes. Don't be so sure of what can and can't be done "logically" by fictitious characters in a game set in the FAR distant future.

 

If you need a logical explanation how the Techmarine can fix the vehicle from inside it, that's easy. A lascannon blast disables a tread, immobilizing the tank. The techmarine goes into action, not wanting to risk being shot he minimizes his exposure by opening a service hatch and extends his servo-arm to make repairs to the tread while remaining safely inside the vehicle from incoming fire.

[Seahawk]

as all embarked models must be taken off the table

Mostly. "...making a note or otherwise marking that the unit is being transported (we find that placing one of the unit's models on top of the transport works well!)." In black and white it states that one model from the unit may be placed on top of the transport (with the designers' support at least). Sure, it's meant as a marker to show what unit is in what, but wouldn't it then fulfill criteria for a techmarine to be in "base contact?" His base is now touching the vehicle.

[gibbro]

I beleive I've reasoned a simplier version of what I was trying to say.

 

Techmarine is next to razorback. Techmarine embarks onto razorback, and model is removed from table. Razorback suffers weapon destroyed result. Techmarine wants to repair while in vehicle.

 

Blessing of the Omnissiah rule C:SM- in base contact during Shooting Phase. So range = base contact.

 

Measuring Distance pg 3 BRB, you measure distance between two units, use the closest model. Tech is off the board so not allowed by this rule.

 

Exception to measuring distance rule is measuring distance for embarked models pg 66 BRB. Embarked meauring distance- embarked unit range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull.

 

Tech is embarked so use Razorback hull as embarked unit starting point to measure distance from Tech and ending distance is hull of Razorback. The Razorback hull is in base contact with itself.

 

Blessing of the Omnissiah would then be allowed.

[GTang]

The thing is while logically being 0" away from something else would mean they are in contact with them, being in a vehicle is one case where it doesn't seem to be true. The base of the Techmarine model isn't in contact with the base of the vehicle model, even if it counts as being 0" away during the shooting phase.

[Octavulg]

Gibbro's reasoning makes sense to me...

 

And I think I should probably point out that vehicles don't have bases, so nothing can ever be in base to base with one. So there.

[GTang]

Of course, for a vehicle, you count the base as the hull.

 

The Techmarine does have a base. And while it may count as being 0" from the vehicle, while it's inside of it, it's not in base to base contact with the vehicle's hull.

[Seahawk]

Again, if you put it on top (as suggested by the rulebook), then it is in base contact with the transport, no?

[thade]

Again, if you put it on top (as suggested by the rulebook), then it is in base contact with the transport, no?

 

This had occurred to me, but I'm certain this is out of consideration. He's on top of the Rhino as just a sign that he's inside; he's not ACTUALLY on the Rhino...otherwise he could be individually targeted or some bologna. That's got "can of worms" written all over it.

 

And the rules make direct references to being in base contact with vehicles, so clearly they think it's possible. :P

[igotsmeakabob!!]

Again, if you put it on top (as suggested by the rulebook), then it is in base contact with the transport, no?

 

This had occurred to me, but I'm certain this is out of consideration. He's on top of the Rhino as just a sign that he's inside; he's not ACTUALLY on the Rhino...

Right, because if he was actually rhino-surfing then I could shoot at him.

[thade]

Right, because if he was actually rhino-surfing then I could shoot at him.

 

Actually, that requires a leadership check...because units are reticent to shoot at any model that Rhino Surfs, since it's really quite hard and awesome-looking.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

What about scorpions? Can I drop scorpions on him?

[Grey Mage]

What about scorpions? Can I drop scorpions on him?

Well technically, RAW a Scorpion could move OVER him, but not stop on top of him... as that would be to close to enemy models, even as a skimmer.

[Agrab]

I would say that he is in B2B, and would treat it as such

 

1) we allow shooting and psychic powers from inside a model as though they were there.

2) where a model is specifically doesnt always matter. He is said to be in the tank, even if we have him off the table (otherwise, see the problem with 1)