New Wolf Guard Terminators

[Brother Grius]

Oh man am I disappointed after a half hour of number crunching. I know it's all about how you use the army, but just running the numbers and not including any bonuses from special characters, I'm not happy.

 

Here is the little word document I just got done typing up for myself.

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Kill Capacity Chart

Lightning Claws	27 points	22 points	32 points	x	27 points	27 points
Thunder Hammer	32 points	34 points	50 points	20 points	32 points	x
Power Fist	32 points	34 points	46 points	x	32 points	30 points
Frost Blade	x	x	43 points	x	x	x
Power Weapon	53 points	40 points	44 points	x	53 points	40 points
Nemesis ForceWeapon	x	x	x	27 points	x	x

 

To get an accurate idea of how you are going to fair against your opponent, cross-index his kill capacity and divide his unit's point value by it.

Consider who goes first by Initiative. Deduct from the second players unit the number of kills achieved times the cost per model.

Next determine how many kills will be achieved based on how many points are surviving in the second squad.

If an invulnerable save is present, multiply the number of kills based on the chart below.

 

Save vs. Kill Multipliers

2+	0.1667
3+	0.3334
4+	0.5000
5+	0.6667
6+	0.8334

 

For example, 5 Black Templars (215 pts.) with Lightning Claws charge 6 Space Wolves (378 pts!) with TH&SS. With Furious Charge and LC, the Templars will go first.

215 / 22 = 9.77 Kills for the Templars

The Space Wolves will take 9.77 * 0.3334 = 3.25 wounds after their storm shield saves.

The remaining 3 Space Wolves will counter-attack and deal 189 / 50 = 3.78 wounds.

The Black Templars will take 3.78 * 0.6667 = 2.52 unsaved wounds.

It may not look pretty for the Templars, but they more than make up for their points in this scenario.

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I know we aren't going to be running all TH&SS, but the point is we lose out in every area. We will always pay more to kill the same number of models, no matter how we're armed with Terminators.

 

Edited to fix the Grey Knights Nemesis Force Weapon row.

[Lord Ragnarok]

As you have already alluded, you have to factor in other options in our dex which effect their effectiveness, like...

 

1. overall army composition

2. None of those armies can hide those in troops with heavy weapons

3. the only other army which can take them as troops are DA's

4. we have more flexible kit

[the great beaver]

yeah...I hear what the OP is saying but at the end of the day I think that being able to get your power weapons where you need them when you need them is more important than the price of the power weapons. for instance, the majority of the armies mentioned.

 

Blood Angels, Black Templars, Grey Knights, Codex and Chaos marines can't get powerfists in any squad they want. they all have to get their power weapon squad and then they have to truck them around the board. we on the other hand can get all the power weapons we need anywhere we need them so any unit we have can possibly go and assault a troop choice holding an objective and take it.

 

for codex marines you don't have the number of attacks or the number of power weapons in the regular army so you have to rely a single unit of terminators to do all your assaulting or an assault squad that hopes it never runs into anything with a decent armour save.

[Vanger]

One more thing. WG unit composition. You compare homogenous weapon loadout.

 

But WGs can take very diverse weapons. Not only that they can also take "naked" WGs for only more wounds.

 

I'm not saying that running WGs won't cost you an arm and a leg (it did in the previous editions, so what's the fuss about it? The loss of the heavy weapons? :D), yes I agree, they are a tad overcosted. But comparing them 1 on 1 with other terminator units isn't the best approach imo as WG can have TDA and PA in a unit and they are the source of our "sergeants" for other units.

[clanfield]

is your wolf claw points right as i make a wg ta to be 1 point more than your listed lc if you were just compareing wepon costs i make wc less than half your listed cost for just the wepon at 15 points a model or were you useing hero points costs?

[Gentlemanloser]

What's the Kill capacity thing?

 

Base WG Termies are awesome for thier 33 points. No other Marine squad, in any Dex, can get a squad of Power Weapons cheaper.

[Brother Amarel]

What's the Kill capacity thing?

 

Base WG Termies are awesome for thier 33 points. No other Marine squad, in any Dex, can get a squad of Power Weapons cheaper.

Exactly. And no-one else can get the diversity, either, as mentioned above (the closest is DA and they're weaker all over the place).

 

Also I'm not seeing all those point costs as accurate, the table doesn't take into account that Wolf Claws > Lightning Claws, and also just matches other load-outs while ignoring arguably more favourable weapon pairings that only SW can get.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of the table, it just needs more facts behind it (e.g. find the most 'killy' SW Termie combination, the closest comparative selection in other codices and then work from there).

[tahrikmili]

Blood Angels, Black Templars, Grey Knights, Codex and Chaos marines can't get powerfists in any squad they want. they all have to get their power weapon squad and then they have to truck them around the board. we on the other hand can get all the power weapons we need anywhere we need them so any unit we have can possibly go and assault a troop choice holding an objective and take it.

 

I do not understand this sentence. As a BA player I can definitely get a Power Fist into every squad I can possibly use excepting the Death Company who have Rending Attacks anyway.

[fjugin]

I did a similar comparison, but not between different chapters terminators, but between different equipment on our terminators.

 

This is the average number of killed opponents when taking a round of shooting and is then charging them, divided by the points cost of the terminator.

A is space marines, B is guardsmen, C is dire avengers, D is immortals

 

Equipment - points --- A --- B --- C --- D

power weap, 33pts - 2,9 - 6,7 - 4,4 - 2,0

1 wolf claw, 37pts -- 3,6 - 7,2 - 5,3 - 2,7

2 wolf claws, 47pts - 3,2 - 5,0 - 4,3 - 2,4

1 power fist, 43pts - 3,4 - 5,9 - 3,9 - 3,3

2 power fist, 53pts - 3,1 - 4,2 - 3,1 - 3,1

SM term fist, 40pts - 3,7 - 6,4 - 4,2 - 3,5

 

The fact that the terminators could be killed before they get a chance to stike has not been taken into consideration, so in reality, the power fist option should be a little worse than these numbers tell.

 

Conclusion:

Space wolf close combat terminators (2 LC, thunder hammer etc) are not as good as the terminators of other chapter. Ours costs a lot more but doesn't get enough from it.

On the other hand, shooty space wolf terminators have many good builds:

1. We can get really cheap units with power weapons with a couple of storm bolters and a heavy weapon, similar to CSM-terminators with a couple of cheap guys and a reaper autocannon, the only difference is that our heavy weapons is MUCH better and that storm bolters are better than combi-bolters in a long range shooty unit.

2. We can get shooty termiantors at a decent cost that's pretty killy and that strikes at I4. Storm bolter + 1 wolf claw seems like a really good option for under 40 points.

3. If we equip them as vanilla marines (4fist, 1PW) our will only cost 5 points more than theirs. For that we gets counter attack which is great, but loses deep strike, which we can get for +35 points.

4. We can get lots of combi-weapons in a drop pod that automatically arrives in turn 1, great for popping tanks with meltas. Similar to what chaos does, but ours are better in close combat (with counter attack) and we always arrive the first turn.

[Morticon]

Would really like this to be explained more. I love aspects of mathhammer in 40k.

 

That aside - doesnt counter charge factor into this??

[Iron Man I]

I think the extra points are worth it imho. You have the ability to drop a hard as nail power weapon or heavy weapon into squads and in effect maximize your firepower. Sure one or two might get picked off as they clop across the board, but thats better than watching your lovely CC Termi unit get cut down by massed firepower because you muffed the teleport roll or paying the extra points to get a LR to shield them as they cross the board.

Look at it like this, the extra point cost is for 1) Surviability and 2) Adding a mighty beatstick to your troopers

[lunchb0x]

I am going to say its waaay too much worrying.

[the great beaver]

Blood Angels, Black Templars, Grey Knights, Codex and Chaos marines can't get powerfists in any squad they want. they all have to get their power weapon squad and then they have to truck them around the board. we on the other hand can get all the power weapons we need anywhere we need them so any unit we have can possibly go and assault a troop choice holding an objective and take it.

 

I do not understand this sentence. As a BA player I can definitely get a Power Fist into every squad I can possibly use excepting the Death Company who have Rending Attacks anyway.

 

yep, you can get a powerfist on a sargeant. we can get powerfists on troopers. that's a possible 2 power weapons in each squad which can mean all the difference against MEQs. we also have a troop choice that can have 15 members and get's 4 attacks each on the charge...death co. can't hold objectives.

 

this isn't a diss or a "my chapter is better" it's the reason why our power weapons cost more...we have slightly more flexibility in where we can take them, and our assault unit also counts as troops so it can assault and then hold objectives...not better or worse, just "why".

[SamaNagol]

How does a Squad with 4 SB/WC and 1 TH/SS do?

 

That's only 215 points.

 

Terminators with Furious Charge and LCs are going to butt :cuss pretty much anything anyway.

[altmann]

Welp, seems like you did the math for the game already. No bother playing.

 

Question: When you go see movies, do you rate the movies in a matrix based on their Rotten Tomato rating and then go to the highest rated movie without bothering with "content" and "whether you want to actually SEE the movie"?

 

That's what I thought.

 

It's a game, some people play it for fun.

 

People like you are why this game gets stupid.

[Rokafort Stonewolf]

I find 2 Combi-Melta/Chainfist, 2 combi-melta/wolf claw, 1 assault cannon/chainfist or wolf claw to do very well for the points, and is a comparably effective squad to other armies that can field Terminators. It's not magic, but it works pretty well, especially in a drop pod.

[Fellblades]

Welp, seems like you did the math for the game already. No bother playing.

 

It's a game, some people play it for fun.

 

People like you are why this game gets stupid.

 

 

First off, before you go around calling brothers whelps, have a little more of a sustained presence around the fang first (yes im looking at your post count: 5). Secondly, as you said, some people play this game for fun, that means other people like to be competitive. There is nothing wrong with the Mathhammer approach the OP is taking, I love it as well, being able to analyze a list or unit and figure out on average how they will do in certain scenarios. It can be a very valuable tool in this game, and a lot of fun in itself

[VorpalDoom]

I think you miss the point about SW versatility, and unit variation, which is the strong point of the SW army... options, options, options!

 

 

There's no reason at all to equip Wolf Guard like regular terminators, really, it's a terrible idea.

 

Try mixing weaponry, throw in a couple of combi-weapons, only a couple of storm shields, several weapon variations, even a basic marine with mark of the wulfen.

 

SW Terminators can have melta bombs! How's that for tasty?

 

 

SW pay for their versatility, and you will not get your points out of it until you use it.

 

 

SW will pay more to kill the same number of models sure, but how effective is a 215 point unit of LC black templars vs land raiders, or the wrath of some ap 2 weaponry?

 

A 215 point unit of WG can be equiped to deal with anything.

 

Check this:

5 Wolf Guard, 3 in terminator armor, 2 in power armor

Power Armored marine 1: Mark of the Wulfen

Power Armored marine 2: Combi-Melta, Power fist

Terminator Armor marine 1: Heavy Flamer, Melta Bomb

Terminator Armor marine 2: Wolf Claw, Combi-Melta, Melta Bomb

Terminator Armor mmarine 3: Combi-Flamer, Frost Axe Melta Bomb

 

215 points. All still toting Counter-attack, and ATSKNF.

 

A couple of melta shots when needed, a couple of flamers when needed, enough high strength to deal with high T, enough melta bombs for charging vehicles, enough attacks to fight off hordes, even if charged.

 

This is a tasty unit, and it fits in a Drop Pod with room to spare.

 

Not to mention, it's a hell of a lot more FUN than 5 generic lightning claw terminators.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Versatility, versatility, versatility.

Unique, unique, unique.

Multi-task, multi-task, multi-task.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wolves may lose toe to toe, provided the circumstances are not in their favor, which is part of playing the wolves.

 

 

For instance, imagine a 5 strong WG terminator squad that has a power weapon and a combi-plasma each.

 

The SW player is smart, and knows that those Templars are going to have to get into combat, and the BT player is similarly smart, and knows he needs to get into combat.

 

Well, the SW player is going to likely drop those terminators into cover, as it's their only chance of getting to go first. No reason to charge in, you have combi-plasmas, not to mention, you only cost 190 points, compared to the BT's 215, and you can handle a lot more targets a lot more ways then your BT counter-parts.

 

The SW player unleashes a tasty volley of Plasma shots, let's say 10, as the BT will be given the charge. The templars will lose 2 in most cases, regardless of cover or their invul.

 

Uh oh, that means a test. let's say they pass, well within charge range and all that, they charge on their turn.

 

The wolves are, of course, in cover, expecting the charge from the BT terminators.

 

Wolves go first. that's 15 power weapon attacks into 3 terminators.

 

If that single Black templar lives, he'll take one terminator down. If he lives through the resolution, he will certainly die in the next phase, and has a fairly decent chance of taking another terminator with him.

 

 

 

Being the case, the 215 point unit will do 76 points worth of damage.

 

 

 

Someone's got to lose.

 

 

 

But as I said before, it's not just about stat-lines and point costs. If you play the game with that basis in mind, you will LOSE every time, and losing isn't much fun, especially if you put a lot of effort into figuring out how to win, and number crunching will only get you so far. Yes, it helps, but it's not the key to victory, nor should it be your decision to play or not play a certain army.

 

Make something fun and unique with SWs, you may find it to be actually effective, stay away from vanilla builds, and when considering effectiveness of a unit, consider how you will use it on the battlefield.

 

Would you really let an assaulty squad assault your expensive unit? I wouldn't.

[altmann]

Welp, seems like you did the math for the game already. No bother playing.

 

It's a game, some people play it for fun.

 

People like you are why this game gets stupid.

 

 

First off, before you go around calling brothers whelps, have a little more of a sustained presence around the fang first (yes im looking at your post count: 5). Secondly, as you said, some people play this game for fun, that means other people like to be competitive. There is nothing wrong with the Mathhammer approach the OP is taking, I love it as well, being able to analyze a list or unit and figure out on average how they will do in certain scenarios. It can be a very valuable tool in this game, and a lot of fun in itself

 

Actually I don't LIVE as a space wolf. I play a game, where my army is a space wolf. I don't INHABIT that character on a forum, so don't hold me to those standards.

 

I was using the word "Welp" as a form of "well" which is a colloquial version. I was not using it as any sort of "derogatory term".

 

Also, last time I checked, post count =/= intelligence. If that was the case we'd have some serious issues and in my experience it's usually the people who say the most have the least amount to say.

 

Anyhow, I understand the mathhammer aspect, and I'll refrain from posting about it anymore. My main point is that, unless you run ALL the numbers, ALL the different rules and options, you can't mathhammer out wolf guard terminators by themselves, because we use them in a ton of different ways. Hence, my moviegoing point.

[Brother Amarel]

Let's keep this non-flamey, guys - no need to go ragging on each other over slightly differing views.

[Brother Landrain]

Can someone post the Math Hammer equations to compare...

 

15 attacks with LC, WS4 vs WS4 S4 T4 rerolling wounds... with 15 Attacks with WC, WS4 vs WS4 S4, T4.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Less math, more mead

[Brother Grius]

Less math, more mead

Now this is a Grey Knight I can agree with! You guys sure took this the wrong way. Firstly I am a total math-dork. Also, I know that our versatility is amazing. I just posted this analysis to help benefit us all. And those "filler guys" at 33 points each are some of our less efficient guys. I am a little dis-appreciative at being called a fun-killer or anything else like that, but consider I'm not a "have-to-win" player. Rather, I get the most fun out of knowing that I have competed my very best on every level of strategy against my opponent. If I win, then I will feel I earned the victory. Should I lose, it is a testament to my opponent's abilities and a clear goal to improve by.

 

Have fun however you want guys.

 

Back on topic, I think that with a few helpful "build-aids" like this, those who are interested can make some very efficient squads. Also, knowing what your odds are can help you build toward a specific goal for a squad.

 

Ales for all.

[Gentlemanloser]

How did you work out the kill cpacity chart?

 

I still can't belive the base 33 point Termies aren't 'efficent', as they are the cheapest squad of pure Power Wepaon Marines any Imperial Codex can get.

 

It's cheaper to turn your WG into Termies, than purchase them a special close combat weapon (IIRC). And you get a SB and 2+ Armour save for free.

 

We will always pay more to kill the same number of models, no matter how we're armed with Terminators

 

It's this I can't agree with.

 

Even if SW base 33 point Termies fall to this, then add a SS to them (and not toher Weapon). They're now 48 Points (just slighlty more expensive than GKT) and have a 3+ save to every other Temrinator type they face up against. Plus they go first when facing the cheaper, only other Terminator with a 3+ save.

 

15 attacks with LC, WS4 vs WS4 S4 T4 rerolling wounds... with 15 Attacks with WC, WS4 vs WS4 S4, T4.

 

15 LC Attacks: 15 Attacks, 7.5 Hits. 5.625 Wounds.

 

15 WC Attacks (Rerolling Wounds): as above.

15 WC Attacks (Rerolling Hits): 11.25 Hits. 5.625 Wounds.

[Vilhelm]

Bickering is lame, unless it is on topic bickering.

 

I got out of the Terminator business after 2nd edition and I didn't use them very much even after they got "fixed" by points reductions and the 5+ invulnerable save. Now the new codex has has peaked my interest in them.

 

Most of the time they won't be fighting other terminators- I prefer the second analysis of how cost effective they are at murdering more common units.

 

I think the key to keeping wolf guard tenable is to mix and match the cheap with expensive specialists-

 

I like 6 TDA's with:

4 Power Swords (or Wolf Claws)

1 Power Fist (or Thunder Hammer)

1 Assault Cannon

 

The 4 power swords only look sexy on paper if you are an accountant, but they really are great troopers in their own right: they are cheap, shooty, and as ablative wounds for the heavy hitters, they mean that the squad can still dish out amazing punishment even after you lose a few models.