BIG BUGS! - an anatomical dissection....

[minigun762]

In the past year, the vast majority of my games have been against nids, and, with no surprise on my part, the big ones are handled quite well by the same things that I've got in the rest of my army.

 

Assault cannons, multi meltas, melta guns, heavy bolters, typhoon launchers, thunder fire cannons, plasma cannons, vindicators and massed bolter fire.

 

In the assault, every power armor unit has got a power fist to both give an opportunity to wound high T, but to also ignore armor saves.

 

If the rumors my 'nid playing friend has been digging into are true, there's supposed to be a dedicated push AWAY from 'nidzilla, with dramatically cheaper gaunts and hormogaunts, new HQ choices (Malanthrope is a strong rumor). Anti-vehicle is supposed to be much more viable for them as well. Plastic gargoyles are all but confirmed, as are points decreases across the board for them and the other non-monstrous creatures. Expect more deployment options as well, so you aren't necessarily going to have 2 turns to shoot them down before they close to hand to hand. Biovores are supposed to once again become affordable and kill-point viable, and are rumored to have a new sculpt.

 

Assuming the above is true, this DRAMATICALLY changes the current anti-armor metagame. There's simply no way to kill enough fearless 4 point gaunts with an army list full of melta, lascannon, and the like. You need templates, multiple shots per weapon, and blast markers. Assuming the deployment and anti-armor options are true, relying on armor and artillery is probably not going to be a good idea either.

 

I expect a sea change in 'all comers' lists that will reflect changes in the armor/anti-armor metagame and make taking varied weapon loadouts even more attractive than it is now.

 

Please understand that my rumors are unsourced, and may be completely off base, but I trust the general trend and am reasonably confident in my statements above. Take with a grain of salt and PLEASE do not go to this or another forum and say "golly, this is what nids are getting", because it's all just RUMORS at this point, given to you at third hand.

 

I included it as a point to consider in discussing the myth of melta.

 

As you said, its really just a reinforcement of the general trend that single shot low AP weapons like LasCannons are getting phased out for multishot mid-high AP weapons like AutoCannons. Quantity of shots is starting to matter alot more then quality.

Its part of the reason I love the IG Multi-Laser (and its Xeno equivalents) as S6 is enough to penetrate a Rhino (that sounds lovely ;) ) and atleast stun AV12 vehicles.

 

Its also the reason I keep Plasma in my army. 2 Plasmaguns at 24" work just as well as a single AutoCannon against armor and just like 2 AutoCannons within 12".

[Commander Sasha]

Ah well, just like I always say... If it works for you, then you should use it. :)

 

Personal experience & local metagame trumps generic advice any day.

 

Very gentlemanly of you, and to think we could have settled this with a flaming war. :lol:

 

Definatelty agree, i had to include the fact that it was my opinion /experience as i have met others who have had absolutely no luck with them what so ever..

It does happen and i would be stupid to ignore the fact.

 

Gc08

...and over on the Wolfie section there is a healthy discussion of female wolves, and no flaming there either! 'Tis a saintly day today! Either that or sunspot activity has sapped our will to flame! Anyone for a "which edition was best" argument!?

[Grey Mage]

After enjoying reading 'The Melta Myth' and the different ways to skin a tank, I started thinking about how this applies to the soon re-released Tyranids.... :D

 

I guess the 2d6 pen and +1 damage is somewhat lost on the soft-centres of their Monstous Creatures.... ;)

 

Well the little ones will get a standard dose of bolter, heavy bolter and whirlwind at a guess but how do you go about cracking the big nuts?

 

I saw not just weaponry spruiking but also some 'how to' in 'The Melta Myth'. So how do you tackle Hive Tyrants, Tyrant Guard, and Carnifex?

 

Is it reasonable to expect a squad of 4 LC Devs or Tri-Las Pred to take them out before they start MONSTROUS CREATUREing your men?

 

Does Melta work versus Big Bugs?

 

Do tell....

Lascannons.

Assault Cannons.

Missile Launchers.

Plasma.

Powerfists and Thunderhammers, preferably with Storm Shields.

Bolters.

Whirlwinds.

 

In that order ;).

[Giga]

I'm curious why you don't splurge on the Plasmagun though. Its only 10 points and gives you alot more punch at 24".

I used to do this, but I found that plasmagun rarely, if ever, gets to shoot at a target I want it to shoot at. In addition, I found that even when it shoots it rarely makes a difference.

 

On the other hand, some regulars at my LGS play nids, and they tend to have outflanking/infiltrating genestealers. So the flamer actually gets a lot more use in these battles then a plasmagun ever would (I often combat squad them, anyway, unless it's a KP mission).

...and over on the Wolfie section there is a healthy discussion of female wolves, and no flaming there either! 'Tis a saintly day today! Either that or sunspot activity has sapped our will to flame! Anyone for a "which edition was best" argument!?

5th.

[Warp Angel]

I'm curious why you don't splurge on the Plasmagun though. Its only 10 points and gives you alot more punch at 24".

I used to do this, but I found that plasmagun rarely, if ever, gets to shoot at a target I want it to shoot at. In addition, I found that even when it shoots it rarely makes a difference.

 

On the other hand, some regulars at my LGS play nids, and they tend to have outflanking/infiltrating genestealers. So the flamer actually gets a lot more use in these battles then a plasmagun ever would (I often combat squad them, anyway, unless it's a KP mission).

 

It works just as well against assaulting Ork hordes, fire dragons and dire avengers that somehow fail to kill the flamer, useful for digging out units in cover if for some reason (say a KP game) where you're on the offensive, and tends to inflict a similar number of MEQ casualties at close range.

[minigun762]

I'm curious why you don't splurge on the Plasmagun though. Its only 10 points and gives you alot more punch at 24".

I used to do this, but I found that plasmagun rarely, if ever, gets to shoot at a target I want it to shoot at. In addition, I found that even when it shoots it rarely makes a difference.

 

On the other hand, some regulars at my LGS play nids, and they tend to have outflanking/infiltrating genestealers. So the flamer actually gets a lot more use in these battles then a plasmagun ever would (I often combat squad them, anyway, unless it's a KP mission).

 

It works just as well against assaulting Ork hordes, fire dragons and dire avengers that somehow fail to kill the flamer, useful for digging out units in cover if for some reason (say a KP game) where you're on the offensive, and tends to inflict a similar number of MEQ casualties at close range.

 

I can definately see that point, but with the Flamer you also only have 1 chance to fire it whereas the Plasmagun you will have 2-3 turns and potentially more to kill things.

 

However I believe that Flamers are more valuable to Loyalist Marines because they don't have 2 base attacks in HtH, so more of an emphasis needs to be placed on destroying horde units at range, instead of slaughtering them up close.

[Giga]

I can definately see that point, but with the Flamer you also only have 1 chance to fire it whereas the Plasmagun you will have 2-3 turns and potentially more to kill things.

Theoretically yes, but in reality, not really.

 

The only really good targets for plasmaguns, the ones that are slowly coming towards me hence giving me 2-3 turns to shoot them, are tyranid MCs. There's also stuff like genestealers, tyranid warriors and the like, but I don't really feel I need a plasmagun to kill genestealers (rapid fire, flamers, heavy bolters, plasma cannons, frag missiles, hellfire ammo etc. do that a lot better at a smaller price). The only other armies who really like to close in on me, that I play regularly against, are Khorne CSM and green tide orks. The Khorne CSM are 100% mech so the plasmagun isn't all that useful there, and I prefer to have a flamer against orks.

 

So this brings me to another two problems;

 

- Against nids, I prefer my plasma cannon shooting at his infantry squads, while my lascannons, missile launchers, and meltas deal with his MCs.

- The abundance of cover means that those 1-2 wounds I do to a MEQ squad (supposing I managed to pop their transport at 24" range) are likely going to receive a 4+ cover save anyway.

 

So, in effect, those 10 points I spend on that plasmagun just don't seem to pay off. Theoretically, they should have... But they didn't. The plasmagun was either out of range, overheating, taking potshots at AV11 vehicles, or killing a single genestealer per turn (whether a flamer could be used in conjunction with rapid fire to easily kill 2-4 genestealers at once). The flamer, while not much more useful then the plasmagun (I rarely, if ever, get any use out of that particular flamer guy), is at least free, so I don't really care if I've used it or not.

[Pasch]

Well, the source of tons of complaining about the new Space Wolves is that Jaws of the World Wolf kills big low initiative MCs pretty easily regardless of their wounds or saves. Sounds like a pretty solid option if you're playing Space Wolves and the presence of that threat in mind will probably keep Nidzilla style armies from being too viable unless major changes are made to Carnifexes and whatnot.

 

Worth a thought.

[minigun762]

Well, the source of tons of complaining about the new Space Wolves is that Jaws of the World Wolf kills big low initiative MCs pretty easily regardless of their wounds or saves. Sounds like a pretty solid option if you're playing Space Wolves and the presence of that threat in mind will probably keep Nidzilla style armies from being too viable unless major changes are made to Carnifexes and whatnot.

 

Worth a thought.

 

Yeah but Tyranid are also just around the corner with a new codex so I wouldn't be surprised if they get buffed.

Of course I've heard that the change will less Nidzilla, more swarm so you're probably going to see the Elite Carnifex go bye bye.

 

But in their place I think we'll start to see more super Carnifex.

[deepstrike]

I'm curious why you don't splurge on the Plasmagun though. Its only 10 points and gives you alot more punch at 24".

I used to do this, but I found that plasmagun rarely, if ever, gets to shoot at a target I want it to shoot at. In addition, I found that even when it shoots it rarely makes a difference.

 

On the other hand, some regulars at my LGS play nids, and they tend to have outflanking/infiltrating genestealers. So the flamer actually gets a lot more use in these battles then a plasmagun ever would (I often combat squad them, anyway, unless it's a KP mission).

...and over on the Wolfie section there is a healthy discussion of female wolves, and no flaming there either! 'Tis a saintly day today! Either that or sunspot activity has sapped our will to flame! Anyone for a "which edition was best" argument!?

5th.

 

Never underestimate the killing power of a couple flamers. Situational to be sure but in that situation there is nothing better.

[deepstrike]

There are rumors of being able to have even more carnifex in an army then you have now. Carnifex broods perhaps. So maybe 9 to an army all heavy support. Dont count out nidzilla, more likely it will change over to little guys being a viable option also. Little guys being gaunts.

[Giga]

There are rumors of being able to have even more carnifex in an army then you have now. Carnifex broods perhaps. So maybe 9 to an army all heavy support. Dont count out nidzilla, more likely it will change over to little guys being a viable option also. Little guys being gaunts.

Carnifex broods would be great.

 

That way, five th/ss termies could take out a brood of 3 dakkafexes in a single turn of assault. Much more efficient then shooting/assaulting them one at a time. ;)

 

Also, this isn't a rumor, but I'm pretty sure zoanthropes are gonna come in 1-3 broods in the new codex.

[deepstrike]

Balanced armies wont have anything to fear on Tyranid day but ultra maxed net armies will certainly cry broken. Ask the TH/SS termis melta/flamers vulcan bike lists, nob bikers or any of the other unbeatable brokens that joined the ranks of the tough but not that bad. And when the tyranids are so full of themselves that whiners dont want to play them enter Dark Eldar (yeah right).

[Captain Idaho]

Balanced armies wont have anything to fear on Tyranid day but ultra maxed net armies will certainly cry broken. Ask the TH/SS termis melta/flamers vulcan bike lists, nob bikers or any of the other unbeatable brokens that joined the ranks of the tough but not that bad. And when the tyranids are so full of themselves that whiners dont want to play them enter Dark Eldar (yeah right).

 

Indeed that is the way of 40K now, I believe all the 5th edition armies are going to be strongest against eachother in a "meta" (hate the term) environment when balanced lists are the strongest themes. I believe this to be a good thing.

[Giga]

Balanced armies wont have anything to fear on Tyranid day but ultra maxed net armies will certainly cry broken. Ask the TH/SS termis melta/flamers vulcan bike lists, nob bikers or any of the other unbeatable brokens that joined the ranks of the tough but not that bad. And when the tyranids are so full of themselves that whiners dont want to play them enter Dark Eldar (yeah right).

I think th/ss, melta & flamers vulkan lists are going to absolutely rock against the new nids, especially if the rumors that the new nids are gonna be a big horde army turn out to be true. :)

[jmurph]

Well, small buggers will be tanks shock, JoWW(for SWs)/flamer, profit. :)