Some practical questions on pure GK

[Magnus Thane]

A few questions for the experts:

- How well do non LR min-maxed pure GK lists perform in casual games?

- How clear are the rules? Has Codex age caused the Daemonhunters codex to become somewhat confusing/oddball like the DE codex or is everything still rather... clear?

- The price of the Daemonhunters and Witchhunter armies has frequently been stated as being excessive due to it being mostly metal. However is it not relatively doable in a GK pure army? As fewer models are needed?

- Can pure GK's function at a scale of 500pts?

- Are the GK's still superior stat/ability wise compared to codex creeped SM's, CSM's, Wolfies etc?

[Gentlemanloser]

How well do non LR min-maxed pure GK lists perform in casual games?

 

They don't. You can't really run pure GK lists without LR.

 

How clear are the rules? Has Codex age caused the Daemonhunters codex to become somewhat confusing/oddball like the DE codex or is everything still rather... clear?

 

Clear as mud. :wub: That's why we've got a 'Gotcha!' sticky.

 

The price of the Daemonhunters and Witchhunter armies has frequently been stated as being excessive due to it being mostly metal. However is it not relatively doable in a GK pure army? As fewer models are needed?

 

It all depends on yoru wallet. It's more expensive for me, as I dislike the metal PAGK, and make my own from plastic bitz.

 

Can pure GK's function at a scale of 500pts?

 

Probably. But it depends on what you're facing.

 

Are the GK's still superior stat/ability wise compared to codex creeped SM's, CSM's, Wolfies etc?

 

This is debateable.

 

For sure, you *cannot* get a GK statline anywhere else, for near the point cost. The closest is running Enhanced Chaos Space Marines For Fearless and hopefully S6. But you're still down 1WS, and a Storm Bolter. WG can come close, but cost nearly 40 points to get there, and by that time you might as well make them a Terminator, it's cheaper. :D

 

As for abilities, Grey Knights get blown out of the water. Ultra Shooting from Sternguard. Massive number of attacks SW can get. The versatility and durability of newer codexes. Like 3++ Stormshields. True grit is surpassed by 'ultra' (or even in SM case 'uber') Grit, or counterattack with Extra extra attacks on top.

 

A lot of our Wargear is either mostly uneffective, or doesn't work. But we do retain a couple of game breaking abilities versus Daemons.

[number6]

As much as I loved playing near-pure GK armies for most of 4th edition, 5th edition has put GKs back into their established "fluffy" role of scarce kill team support for other Imperial armies.

 

Pure GK armies without land raiders won't funcition well at all unless you're facing Necrons or the current Tyranids (before they get their 5e codex).

 

Pure GK armies with land raiders are dominating against some armies (the aforementioned plus Orks and maybe a couple of others) but are totally blown out of the water by competitively built armies from any of the new 5e codexes and several 4e codexes as well (e.g., Tau, mech Eldar).

 

You can build quite potent pure Daemonhunters codex armies, but pure GK? Not anymore. Either build a DH force using all the juicy options available and take just a few GKs to support it, or build an IG or Marines army and take just a few GKs to support that.

[avatar8481]

How well do non LR min-maxed pure GK lists perform in casual games?

 

If it's casual why does it matter how they perform. They're fun to play, but like Gentlemanloser said, even in casual games they don't work without LR.

 

How clear are the rules? Has Codex age caused the Daemonhunters codex to become somewhat confusing/oddball like the DE codex or is everything still rather... clear?

 

This is entirely a function of how much of a d-bag you and your opponent are, which in casual play hopefully won't matter. They're a pain to play in a tournament because so much is different, but in casual play a whole bunch of handwaving about weapons stats and wording solves all the problems.

 

Probably. But it depends on what you're facing.

 

Assuming that at 500 points you're using Combat Patrol rules you can probably hang pretty well actually since nobody else will have anything too game breaking. If you're playing regular rules at 500 points you'll get run over hard if people bother to bring the kinds of broken lists that you can make at this points level.

 

The price of the Daemonhunters and Witchhunter armies has frequently been stated as being excessive due to it being mostly metal. However is it not relatively doable in a GK pure army? As fewer models are needed?

 

Hard to say and hugely dependent on the list. 2000 points of daemons can be bought for about 280 bucks (2 boxes of warhounds for fiends of slaanesh, 4 boxes of dire wolves for fleshhounds, 1 box of khemri chariots for slaaneshi heralds and 2 boxes of grave ghouls for plague bearers) and I've bought a 2000 point SM army for 900 bucks (3 AoBR, 4 speeders, 3 Predators, 1 Vulkan, 2 boxes of scouts, telion, 3 rhinos). A 2000 point pure GK army might be 400 bucks: 4 LRC (200 bucks) 2 squads of GKT (5 man boxes plus bits) (120 bucks) 2 squads of PAGK (10 man boxes) (75 bucks). Non-pure GK might be 580 bucks (2 LRC for 100, 2 5-man GKT plus bits for 130, 1 Inq Lord+retinue box and bits, 60, 3 cadian squads and special weapon bits 150, 5 chimeras 150)

 

So they're middle of the road when you go all in, but they feel expensive since they're upwards of 8-15 bucks a model for metal.

[Magnus Thane]

*rubs chin*

Hmmm it leaves me unsure wether to make the investment. GK are next to DE and 1000 Sons the two forces most appealing to me atm. And have been for months.

But usefulness is limited. And I'm afraid the GK will become no longer playable with a new codex. Just as investing in DE seems questionable atm.

[avatar8481]

Actually I really like playing a mixed force of IST and GKT (basically the last list I described above). It has issues, and suffers against certain armies, but in my play environment, where people are only slowly adjusting to 5th edition it's still a very strong force, very nice on the battle field and a lot of fun to model.

[Magnus Thane]

Hmmm well I think I'll pick up a blister of GK's saturday, paint them up. And if I like how they turn out, i'll slowly add to it.

The models are gorgeous and as it is a low model count army, I can really do my best trying to apply the best quality with my subpar painting skills.

For competitive play I'll use my BL. For fun I'll send in the GK - Dreadnaught miniswarm! ^___^

[jeffersonian000]

To answer your questions in order:

 

Non-LR pure GK can be effective against a non-vehicle/light vehicle opponent. If we do not take LR's, we need Dreadnoughts, and that is plural as one LR or Dread will died horribly fast while two of the same type will last a bit longer. LR's and Dreads are our only effective anti-tank outside of close combat. It’s a personal choice, but the better options are either 2 Godhammer LR’s or 1 LRC supported by 2 Dreads. Some have had great success with dual Crusaders; I am not one of them.

 

Our rules are fairly clear within the codex itself, however, there are wargear that reference rules not in the codex that are also no longer in the rulebook, which makes those items useless (i.e., Teleport Homer). Also, some of our gear has been superseded by the same gear in other codecii, causing our gear to be perceived as being less useful that in the past (i.e., Storm Shields). This is balanced by our archaic rules for force weapons and smoke launchers.

 

As to price, I find that a pure GK army is one of the cheaper armies to build due to the high individual point cost of our units equaling a low model count, which was the main selling point for me when I started them. The second selling point was simply how awesome the models look compared to the standard Marine version (our Terminators are by far the best looking Terminators in 40k). The third point was the flexibility of play and army building via their allying rules and assault-type weapons.

 

At 500pts, they cannot take on vehicles with AV's over 12 at range (and are hard pressed to deal with AV’s over 10). In Combat Patrol, they actually do really good since the rules for force builds limits everyone to things GK's can deal with while not restricting the GK's ability to move/shoot/assault as needed.

 

From a stat stand point, GK's are under stat'd for their cost in 5th edition. Their WS of 5 and True Grit mean nothing when faced with twice their number in opponents with 3+ attacks each hitting on 4+ and wounding on 4+ at effectively the same cost. At range, out 25+ point cost per wound very effectively negate our 2+ and 3+ armour saves. This just means we have to embrace our strengths, reduce mistakes through experience, and play a conservative game most of the time. Pure GK is an army you love to play, not an army you play to win at all costs. I'm happy with myself when I win, I'm happy with my army if I can pull a draw, and I’m happy I got a game in if neither a win or a draw was achievable. It takes more skill to win with pure GK than it does to defeat them with a newer codex army.

 

SJ

[SamaNagol]

Armies which shred armour are not much fun at all against pure GK.

 

number 6 came up with a nice build based around 3 units of IST with Melta in Rhinos backed up by 2 units of Grey Knight Termies in Land Raiders. I think that is the most competitive build for them at the moment at 1500pts.

[wizard12]

the dice gods really favour us when the odds are serously against us

 

grand master + brother captain form terminator squad

 

vs

 

10 man chaos terminator squad and chaos lord in terminator armour

 

end result

 

1 chaos lord, 1 chaos terminator

 

1 dead grand master, 1 dead brother captain and 3 dead PA grey knights (they joined later)

 

I think I came up trumps there, even though I lost the assult (if only I hadn't lost so many terminators from shooting)

 

 

 

also, 7 PA grey knight vs 2 greater daemons = 1 dead daemon and 7 dead grey knights

 

still feel I came up trumps there

[Magnus Thane]

Thanks for all the feedback!