How do you deal with armor?

[HERO]

So, if there's one thing I noticed about Space Wolves is.. they're really good at close combat.

 

Their problem though is their long-range anti-armor support.

 

How good are Long Fangs in your opinion? I had a game today where I didn't have Long Fangs and I was fighting against a 2-Raider inducted Mech Guard w/ Heavy Weapons support back up and I must say.. I was having a real tough time. My list had 3 Land Speeders with MM/HF, but they didn't see combat till turn 4. My only reliable anti-armor was meltaguns and combi-meltas.

 

What do you guys take for anti-armor? And is 2 squads of 3x ML/2x LC Long Fangs too much in a 1750 game (with 3 troops)?

[Brother-Captain Sicarius]

a thing i have found to work with my ultramarines is the AC pred with LC sponsons... pretty cheap and pretty durable... but as i have no experience with the wolfs i cant tell you wether or not LF's are better (probably depends a lot on the rest of your army as well...)

[Gentlemanloser]

How do 'nilla Marines deal with Armour?

 

Then add an extra Heavy Long Fang, Fire control, Tank Hunting from Logan, Arjak, And a plethora of Rending (some on 24" possible charge ranges) for back armour hits in CC. BEL Scouts. And WG and Scouts abiltiies for the whole squad to take Melta Bombs, espeically Terminator WG.

 

:lol:

[HERO]

Had some serious problem vs. DH/IG inducted Guard today. I haven't played against them in a while and this is pretty much what he took:

 

2x LRCs

5x GKT + Stern

GM + 5x Purgation Squad (flamers, Justicar)

3x Heavy Weapons with 3x Autocannons each

Chimera

Inquisitor with 2x Mystics

2 more Chimeras (one with command (4x meltaguns, and one with 2x Meltagun Stormtroopers)

 

I took this list:

 

1749

 

HQ:

Ragnar Blackmane = 240

Rune Priest w/ Jaws, LL (Bird, Meltabomb) = 115

 

TROOP:

10x Grey Hunters w/ Wolf Guard (Rhino, PF, WStandard, Meltagun, cbM) = 228

10x Grey Hunters w/ Wolf Guard (Rhino, PF, WStandard, Meltagun, cbM) = 228

10x Grey Hunters w/ Wolf Guard (DP, PF, WStandard, Meltagun, cbM) = 228

 

FA:

3x Land Speeder (MM/HF) = 210

 

ELITE:

5x WGT (5x cbM, 3x WC, 2x CF) = 235

LRR (EA, MM) = 265

 

Let's just say that I found his armor to be a real problem. After I tried killing his LRC with my GH in the Rhinos, his GKT + Stern murdered them.

 

So I'm basically asking: What do you suggest for anti-armor? (it didn't help my LS didn't come on until the end of turn 4).

 

Here's my new list:

 

1749

 

HQ:

Ragnar Blackmane = 240

 

TROOP:

9x Grey Hunters w/ Wolf Guard (Rhino, PF, WStandard, Meltagun, cbM) = 228

9x Grey Hunters w/ Wolf Guard (Rhino, PF, WStandard, Meltagun, cbM) = 228

7x Grey Hunters w/ Arjac Rockfist (WStandard, Meltagun) = 308

 

FA:

2x Land Speeder (MM/HF) = 140

 

HEAVY:

6x Long Fangs (3x ML, 2x LC) = 170

6x Long Fangs (3x ML, 2x PC) = 160

LR (EA, MM) = 275

 

The 7x GH, Arjac and Ragnar goes into the Godhammer.

 

So basically what I'm asking is: Are those too many Long Fangs? And are they even good? I'm trying to get somewhat of a decent anti-armor thing going on here and do what Space Wolves do: Counter-attack with the ferocity of a rabid dog, er wolf.

[the great beaver]

Ive been playing a number of test games to find out what's better at taking out armour: long fangs or multi melta land speeders....and I'll tell you that it depends on who you're up against

 

against armour 14 I almost ignore it with anything except melta weapons. everything else...long fangs work about as well as speeders.

[Grey Mage]

I like to take Dreadnaughts and advance them with my army... if they cant kill the armor at range, theyll walk up and punch it in the face a few times- does the trick pretty good.

 

Longfangs, I stick to 2xML and 2xLC, or just 4xML whenever possible. Good ranged, flexable... and I dont see any reason to change it just because it got alot cheaper.

 

GH Meltaguns are pretty good, but remember if your doing a mounted force you dont have to get out... you just have to drive slow :P.

[WG Vrox]

You can run a suicide squad of SWB , MG AB with MM and WG with CM and all with MB. run ya right at 200. Should make their points back.

 

I'm beginning to shine to my LR with MM, expensive but gets the job done. If not my Vindi will sometimes take over for AP.

 

Arjac with GH in a Pod is a pretty nice option, he is in my next list for a local tournie.

 

Had lots of luck with scouts MG and MB. 110

 

Rhino with GH and MG joined be a WG with CM/PF gives me 2 MG shooting from the fire ports. This is a last ditch effort for 14 armor. 220

 

I run my long fangs with 4 ML, they pop the cans and dispense chew toys for my GH.

[ExuroinAbyssus]

In my personal experience with the older rules Scouts were always a good unit armed with MG and MBs they could take out a tank or two at rear armour. Only problem was that they died relatively soon after. Nowadays you've got to rely on Lady Luck to get you behind the armour.

 

I'd generally recommend 2 LS with MMs split into two seperate units, take advantage of terrain. Harass him from behind with scouts and use LS to support.

 

If the GK are bothering you I'd reccommend 2 HBs and 2 PCs (Dell are not an option :geek: ) this way you can deal with both light vehicles, IG, GK and TDA equipped GKs.

 

Hope this helps. :P

[HERO]

I guess to make this fluid, I wanna get an idea of what everyone takes for anti-armor in a 1750 game.

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

Melta bombs.... lots of melta bombs....

[the great beaver]

I guess to make this fluid, I wanna get an idea of what everyone takes for anti-armor in a 1750 game.

 

in a 1750 along with the meltagun on my LRC I take the following

 

long fangs

2 lascannons

3 missile launchers

 

razorback

twin lazcannon

 

landspeeder

MM

heavy flamer

 

landspeeder

MM

AC

 

and I have combi melta's on all my wolf guard except the twin wolf claw guy who has meltabombs and my podding grey hunters have a melta gun on top of their WGs combi melta.

[surelock]

So far I am looking at a 4 lascannon long fang squad and a 4 missile launcher long fang squad, I kit the SL out with a plasma gun and attach a TDA WG w/ CML in one and Njal in the other. I also give the lascannon squad a Razorback w/ hvy bolter (for anti-infantry).

[rahl02]

My solution to anti armor is a squad of LF with LC and 2 squads of GH both 10 man with meltas, cheap and effective. Send them in rhinos and they're all good. Add in a vindi and your opponent has to decide wether to take out the vindi, or the LF. He as to worry about the 2 GH squads to that just popped smoke the after the first 12 inches. Don't take any WG they're a little expensive, kitted out with cbM and PF your lookin at 43pt model. you can get an extra GH and a free melta for 3 squads with that. Also wolf standards are nice but at 10 points that's another 2 GH. I'd only use them to fill gaps in points. Also having more than 1 SC in a 1750 point game isn't that great an idea, at 2k great. But Ragnar and Arjac that's almost 1/4 of your points. I'd drop one of them.

 

Taking out Arjac, the 2 WG with cbM would net you more than 220 points. Thats a sizable amount of points.

[HERO]

I'm trying to keep the Ragnar theme but buff up my anti-armor potential.

 

Arjac is a pretty solid investment, even if it is a 500 point group of guys in a LR. He can't be picked out, he has a S10 Thunderhammer that can be thrown, he has Eternal Warrior and can re-roll hits vs. ICs and MCs. With Ragnar, he can have up to 7 attacks on the charge.. which is pretty much death to anything he touches. Too bad FC is completely wasted on him.. since his weapon cannot go higher than I1 and his S can't go above 10. The reason why he's so good is because he makes up for something Ragnar cannot; killing big guys and walkers.

 

The idea behind the new list is that I'll shoot like crazy and kill whatever comes close. This philosophy works in a game like Kill points for example.. but in a points-given game, it becomes slightly harder since I have fewer units to capture and contest.

 

I like your suggestion for the 10-strong GH.. but I find that I absolutely need a fist in the metagame that I play with. Too many MEQ and Plague Marines.

 

In that army list I listed above, I have:

2 meltagun and 2 CbM with the Grey Hunters in Rhinos.

2 TLLC and a MM from the LR.

6 Missiles, 2 PCs and 2 LCs from the Long Fangs.

2 MM on the two LS

Arjack's BS5 railgun at 6" and a meltagun with Ragnar.

[Prophecy]

You can run a suicide squad of SWB , MG AB with MM and WG with CM and all with MB. run ya right at 200. Should make their points back.

 

I'm beginning to shine to my LR with MM, expensive but gets the job done. If not my Vindi will sometimes take over for AP.

 

Arjac with GH in a Pod is a pretty nice option, he is in my next list for a local tournie.

 

Had lots of luck with scouts MG and MB. 110

 

Rhino with GH and MG joined be a WG with CM/PF gives me 2 MG shooting from the fire ports. This is a last ditch effort for 14 armor. 220

 

I run my long fangs with 4 ML, they pop the cans and dispense chew toys for my GH.

 

 

So...many....abbreviations. Someone want to help out a young pup new to the Chapter with a few of these?

[Heimdal]

So...many....abbreviations. Someone want to help out a young pup new to the Chapter with a few of these?

 

Abbrevations

[Brother Captain Kezef]

A land speeder tornado can be effective

[HERO]

I'm going to give the list I have above a try.

 

It's supposed to be a all-comers list, so it's built to fight every one. The only thing I need to do is change my playstyle; I normally rush forward and attack.. but this list forces me to stay behind and shoot, and counter-attack with Ragnar. It'll be different from what I'm used to, but this is the only way I can see Space Wolves staying competitive with anti-armor.

 

I don't like Drop Pods without Ironclads and Sternguard. A few melta or CbM shots is just not enough to justify dropping a 5x Termie squad, or a "throw-away" Wolf Guard squad.

 

Drop Pods, should be taken in 3+ in order to be effective. 1 Pod is just too weak both psychologically and cost effectiveness.

[rahl02]

I'm trying to keep the Ragnar theme but buff up my anti-armor potential.

 

Arjac is a pretty solid investment, even if it is a 500 point group of guys in a LR. He can't be picked out, he has a S10 Thunderhammer that can be thrown, he has Eternal Warrior and can re-roll hits vs. ICs and MCs. With Ragnar, he can have up to 7 attacks on the charge.. which is pretty much death to anything he touches. Too bad FC is completely wasted on him.. since his weapon cannot go higher than I1 and his S can't go above 10. The reason why he's so good is because he makes up for something Ragnar cannot; killing big guys and walkers.

 

The idea behind the new list is that I'll shoot like crazy and kill whatever comes close. This philosophy works in a game like Kill points for example.. but in a points-given game, it becomes slightly harder since I have fewer units to capture and contest.

 

I like your suggestion for the 10-strong GH.. but I find that I absolutely need a fist in the metagame that I play with. Too many MEQ and Plague Marines.

 

In that army list I listed above, I have:

2 meltagun and 2 CbM with the Grey Hunters in Rhinos.

2 TLLC and a MM from the LR.

6 Missiles, 2 PCs and 2 LCs from the Long Fangs.

2 MM on the two LS

Arjack's BS5 railgun at 6" and a meltagun with Ragnar.

 

 

To help you could have power fists in the grey hunter squads. I know arjac's a beast, but if you put Ragnar with a GH pack in a LR it'll get the same punch, you'd have up to 4 power fist attacks at S9 on the charge. I know Arjac gets a few more, but at his points cost he'd be better in a 2k point game. Now I haven't used LS's yet, but i plan to see how effective they are. But I like to get as many troops on the field as possible. So far my list is 4 GH packs with 2 plasma each and 2 melta each, and power fist in each. Add in 4 Rhino transports and i'm looking at, only 870. That's a nice set of anti tank and anti infantry. I didn't add any extra kit not needed. The standards are nice but at 10 points each but they only work once per game. I'd rather put those points into another squad, maybe like a WG unit.

[King Tiger]

What do you guys take for anti-armor?

at the very least I'll be having a full long fang pack, with 5 missile launchers and razorback with a twin-linked lascannon

then I got the wolf scouts with a meltagun

then maybe a unit of bikers with melta bombs

a dreadnought with 2 twin-linked autocannons for light armour killing

and a couple of thunder hammers hidden here and there

[HERO]

I'm trying to keep the Ragnar theme but buff up my anti-armor potential.

 

Arjac is a pretty solid investment, even if it is a 500 point group of guys in a LR. He can't be picked out, he has a S10 Thunderhammer that can be thrown, he has Eternal Warrior and can re-roll hits vs. ICs and MCs. With Ragnar, he can have up to 7 attacks on the charge.. which is pretty much death to anything he touches. Too bad FC is completely wasted on him.. since his weapon cannot go higher than I1 and his S can't go above 10. The reason why he's so good is because he makes up for something Ragnar cannot; killing big guys and walkers.

 

The idea behind the new list is that I'll shoot like crazy and kill whatever comes close. This philosophy works in a game like Kill points for example.. but in a points-given game, it becomes slightly harder since I have fewer units to capture and contest.

 

I like your suggestion for the 10-strong GH.. but I find that I absolutely need a fist in the metagame that I play with. Too many MEQ and Plague Marines.

 

In that army list I listed above, I have:

2 meltagun and 2 CbM with the Grey Hunters in Rhinos.

2 TLLC and a MM from the LR.

6 Missiles, 2 PCs and 2 LCs from the Long Fangs.

2 MM on the two LS

Arjack's BS5 railgun at 6" and a meltagun with Ragnar.

 

 

To help you could have power fists in the grey hunter squads. I know arjac's a beast, but if you put Ragnar with a GH pack in a LR it'll get the same punch, you'd have up to 4 power fist attacks at S9 on the charge. I know Arjac gets a few more, but at his points cost he'd be better in a 2k point game. Now I haven't used LS's yet, but i plan to see how effective they are. But I like to get as many troops on the field as possible. So far my list is 4 GH packs with 2 plasma each and 2 melta each, and power fist in each. Add in 4 Rhino transports and i'm looking at, only 870. That's a nice set of anti tank and anti infantry. I didn't add any extra kit not needed. The standards are nice but at 10 points each but they only work once per game. I'd rather put those points into another squad, maybe like a WG unit.

 

How exactly do you get 2x Meltas, 2x Plasmas and a WG w/ a Power Fist in each GH Rhino?

 

Edit: Not to mention that without at least 2 fists or Arjac, getting stuck in combat with a Ironclad (say it charges you) is a very bad thing. Ragnar, despite his immortal fury, cannot do a thing to it.

[rahl02]

I'm trying to keep the Ragnar theme but buff up my anti-armor potential.

 

Arjac is a pretty solid investment, even if it is a 500 point group of guys in a LR. He can't be picked out, he has a S10 Thunderhammer that can be thrown, he has Eternal Warrior and can re-roll hits vs. ICs and MCs. With Ragnar, he can have up to 7 attacks on the charge.. which is pretty much death to anything he touches. Too bad FC is completely wasted on him.. since his weapon cannot go higher than I1 and his S can't go above 10. The reason why he's so good is because he makes up for something Ragnar cannot; killing big guys and walkers.

 

The idea behind the new list is that I'll shoot like crazy and kill whatever comes close. This philosophy works in a game like Kill points for example.. but in a points-given game, it becomes slightly harder since I have fewer units to capture and contest.

 

I like your suggestion for the 10-strong GH.. but I find that I absolutely need a fist in the metagame that I play with. Too many MEQ and Plague Marines.

 

In that army list I listed above, I have:

2 meltagun and 2 CbM with the Grey Hunters in Rhinos.

2 TLLC and a MM from the LR.

6 Missiles, 2 PCs and 2 LCs from the Long Fangs.

2 MM on the two LS

Arjack's BS5 railgun at 6" and a meltagun with Ragnar.

 

 

To help you could have power fists in the grey hunter squads. I know arjac's a beast, but if you put Ragnar with a GH pack in a LR it'll get the same punch, you'd have up to 4 power fist attacks at S9 on the charge. I know Arjac gets a few more, but at his points cost he'd be better in a 2k point game. Now I haven't used LS's yet, but i plan to see how effective they are. But I like to get as many troops on the field as possible. So far my list is 4 GH packs with 2 plasma each and 2 melta each, and power fist in each. Add in 4 Rhino transports and i'm looking at, only 870. That's a nice set of anti tank and anti infantry. I didn't add any extra kit not needed. The standards are nice but at 10 points each but they only work once per game. I'd rather put those points into another squad, maybe like a WG unit.

 

How exactly do you get 2x Meltas, 2x Plasmas and a WG w/ a Power Fist in each GH Rhino?

 

Edit: Not to mention that without at least 2 fists or Arjac, getting stuck in combat with a Ironclad (say it charges you) is a very bad thing. Ragnar, despite his immortal fury, cannot do a thing to it.

 

Each squad has 2x special weapon and a PF inside a rhino. The thing about each squad is they have their purpose. All have a PF for that 2+ wound roll. The melta's are for anti tank, the plasma are for anti heavy infantry. Like I stated those 4 squads with transports are only 870 in a 1750 game that leaves me with 880 for other toys. A 6 man LF squad with Lascannons and a Vindicator leaves me with 575 points to play with. Now I have 4 objective takers, a squad that can take out 2 armor's a turn and a pie plate to serve death to anything (assuming i hit or deviate very little). Ok now with those 575 points I could go in any direction, be it a kitted out wolf lord, and a WG termies, or I could go with a SC. There's so many toys to choose from.

[HERO]

What does everyone think about 2x LR lists? (Godhammer variants) as transports + Anti-tank?

[rahl02]

What does everyone think about 2x LR lists? (Godhammer variants) as transports + Anti-tank?

 

 

Because it is. Plain and simple it can more 6" and fire both Lascannons, or move 12" and still fire one. I'm assuming that's the one your talking about. It's definaly a great tank.

[Silvtalon]

I like to take Dreadnaughts and advance them with my army... if they cant kill the armor at range, theyll walk up and punch it in the face a few times- does the trick pretty good.

 

Longfangs, I stick to 2xML and 2xLC, or just 4xML whenever possible. Good ranged, flexable... and I dont see any reason to change it just because it got alot cheaper.

 

GH Meltaguns are pretty good, but remember if your doing a mounted force you dont have to get out... you just have to drive slow ;).

 

 

Drop pod dread's or Grey wolves right behind armor on turn 1. All you need is 3 drop pods. At the begining of your first turn you drop 2 pods right were you need them pop your troops or dreads and annilate 1 vehicle per unit hopefully. Of course you might loose what you drop.. but if they live then you can really take the fight to them while the rest of your army comes in.

 

If you also have 1 scout squad in the mix You will have two turn 2's reserves that come in and continue to harass the enemies back lines. Of course that's if you roll good enough for them to come in.

 

All this gives your wolves time to run across the battlefield, ride in rhino's, Landraiders or rush upon the backs of thunderwolves to the enemies front lines. In a sense an hammer and anvil tactic. Risky as heck but very rewarding.