Well... I don't know what they were expecting...

[Race Bannon]

Also due to 6, I think many lawyers start nit picking the list to "keep us in check"

 

It goes the other way as well. This board is loaded with SW players looking to squeeze every word out of the Dex to maximize effect (#6). So it's not only keeping in check, but verifying the idea.

 

What I'm concerned about the new SW Dex is .. and I hate to use the words ... Codex creep. Compare every Codex since the DA and each one (bar BA) has gotten better. So the 'Nids Codex will do one of three obvious outcomes: weaker, same, better. I'm betting "better". Than what? the SW Codex, which is stronger than the SM Codex (IMVHO).

 

Now, seriously, comparing the SW to SM Codex DOES show the obvious differences and one has advantages over the other and visa versa.

 

Ultimately, it is my opinion that the versatility of the SW lists (granted 100% in line with fluff since 2nd ed), makes a Space Marine-type army, better than the structure of the Codex lists. On the surface, the SW Codex will perform better in the hands of the average player with average dice rolls because the list provides better chances and opportunity for success.

[clanfield]

i actualy see huge simularitys to the chaos marine dex within the structure of the wolf dex

i agree people will move on in time just me over reacting i guess,id like the new dex as many have said no intrest in the ultra dex at all

a lot of the coments im seeing are more for rule clarifications as oposed to moaning

[Lord Ragnarok]

It goes the other way as well. This board is loaded with SW players looking to squeeze every word out of the Dex to maximize effect (#6). So it's not only keeping in check, but verifying the idea.

 

Agreed, which is going both ways.

[Gillyfish]

Well is it safe for me to collect some guard now without me being called a bandwagoner?

 

Yes, but don't let on you're a Wolf player! :lol: ;)

 

Seriously though, as has been said, there is often this reaction to a new Codex. Even the DA Codex got that reaction from some quarters when it was released (which is hard to imagine nowadays). 'You get to scout and then deep strike with terminators and teleport homers on Turn 1? Broken!'

 

After a while it cools down - gamers are able to face the shiny new army and discover its strengths and weaknesses. Then there is a period of readjustment and reflection and the Codex is seen to either be either more powerful, less powerful or the same as most other Codex books.

 

Some people will always see the new Codex as hard to beat. You're seeing it now and their joy and rapture at beating what they see to be a cheesy list will know no bounds! Why? Because they're afraid of the new army - they've heard all these good things about it and they think it'll be hard to beat. Plus there is the recurring argument for Codex Creep which always gets trotted out. Is the new SW 'dex more powerful than any other 'dex? Time (and lots of games) will tell.

 

Basically, Amarel (and several others) are right - enjoy your time in the sun. Beat the naysayers as best you can and have fun. You've certainly waited long enough.

 

Now excuse me, I have to go and iron my skirt/dressing gown/robes.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Gilly, thanks for the even toned commentary and self-jibes. :lol:

[Gentlemanloser]

I wrote a little Apoc report from the weekend, and my regular gaming group don't like the SW codex. They were originally excited for it, now just don't like it.

 

While they tried to restrain from cries of Codex Creep previously (I didn't, it's one of my major gripes atm), the overall feeling isn't one of Codex Creep, but Codex Leap.

 

In thier eyes, the SW Codex has ramped the power level up more than any other new codex to date.

 

It has all the basics of the 'Nilla Marine Dex, but better. Either cheaper (hi hi LRR), or better load outs (like Ultra Grit).

 

On top of that, the 'flavour' units of the 'nilla dex (Sternguard being the top, but including the Ironclad and Thunderfire. Who uses a Conversion Beamer anyway?) just don't stand up to things like 33 point Terminators, Bjorn, Ragnar or TWC.

 

Plus the SW got all the new updated Toys (bar Transports sizes, but everyone's just concrned about Heavy 2 Cylones and 3++ Storm Shields here), and better lightning Claws.

 

In thier eyes, the SW codex (and I'm inclinded to agree) has made all the other current Marines Codexes redundant.

 

Use Logan and WG to make a Deathwing, Ravenwing, Jump Pack troop army. Outfight the BT in CC, and mix TDA guts with PA or put PA in with Scouts.

 

The only thing balanced in thier eyes in the Codex, were Fenrisian Wolves (which I found to underperform, but could see a use for them if you wanted to include an IC on a TWM in a 15 Wolf Squad...)

 

And quite frankly, for thier cost, TWC are insane. They're like Bloodcrushers, only better. ;)

 

On top of that, Ragnar is an utter beast in CC, maybe even the best in the game. I'd like to see some mathhammer on him versus Abaddon. But if that fails, all you do is make sure you massacre another squad the turn before you engage Abaddon for some disgustingly increased amount of attacks.

 

And this isn't even touching thier Psychic Powers, or the frustratingly good 3+/4+ Runi Weapon Protection.

 

This isn't a rant from me, I very much enjoyed playing with the new Dex, and can't wait to get myself some mounted TWC going on.

 

I think the feeling comes form the fact there isn't *anything* bad or medicore of choice in the Codex. There's no 'fluffy' units you really wouldn't ever include.

 

If you haven't accepted the Codex Creep I've at least been noticing (since the Eldar Dex at least), I don't think anyone could fail to recognise it now.

[clanfield]

iv played 4 games with the new dex 1x 1k won by a mile v plague marines ,2x 1500k 1 win 1 near drawboth against black legion,1x 1.1k slaughter vs eldar.

the game is getting more dynamic for sure but i still feel playing missions balances the field a lot more than just open war all 4 games used a 6 turn limit which is fun by a mile

 

as to codex creep maybe a little but i still feel all codex are valid to use time will tell

[DV8]

Space Wolves having been my first army, I will admit I looked forward to the past weekend with child-like glee. I was...giddy.

 

There was a lot of give and take, and a while back when 5th Edition was released, I was very apprehensive. I didn't like many of their supposed changes, and I was not in a happy place for 40k. But the rules came out, I tried them out a few times, and I was pleasantly surprised. 5th Edition made 40k - dare I say it - fun again. From a player who had left 40k for a good 2 or 3 years to play Fantasy, I came back and I was in love with 5th Ed.

 

The new Space Marine book came out, and then Imperial Guard, and now the Space Wolves, and I love them all. Yes, there are invariably some powerful combinations and certain lists that just happen to be very top-tier power wise. You'll find the same thing in Fantasy.

 

But when you get down to it and you play the games and you play with and against the armies, you find that those combinations are limited in scope, those lists restrictive in many situations. There's too many ifs, ands, or buts to say "this one Codex is the one, and will rule them all and bind them (in the grim darkness). Much like Fantasy, the majority of your games will be determined by the balance and synergy of your army, and your ability to both contest objectives as well as take them.

 

One other thing you come to expect too, as has been mentioned before, Codex Creep, band wagoners, and naysayers. Unfortunately, the advocators of each of those 3 will invariably adopt the same position for every book. So just take everything they say with a grain of salt, sit back, have an ale and laugh. Why get so worked up when, in the end, it's just a game of toy soldiers?

 

@Race Bannon - Sad to say, after a decade of gaming, and evolving my play style, I won't lie that Codex: Space Marines suits my army needs better than Codex: Space Wolves (tactically speaking, my preferred list works better with the Vanilla Codex).

 

That is not to say I will not play with Space Wolves, oh no! I intend to use both when I want! Neither book is any more "powerful" than the other. They have different playstyles and different units to accomplish their goals.

 

 

DV8

[lunchb0x]

I had one guy, who claims to have been a GW game tester, get physically pissed about my Wolves...I thought it was going to turn into something awesome with chair throwing and fists flying.

[JamesI]

I had one guy, who claims to have been a GW game tester, get physically pissed about my Wolves...I thought it was going to turn into something awesome with chair throwing and fists flying.

Thats just sad.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

We've waited nearly 10 years for this codex so I don't really care what other folks say tbh.

 

The Codex is everything a Wolf wants, it's very fluffy, very effective and I think it's still pretty balanced.

[Sleipnir Frostfang]

Every codex that comes out (other than Dark Angels) has people complaining its overpowered. Is this dex overpowered? Too soon to say. Like most, it will probably be dominant for a little while then people will adjust to it.

 

Actually when the DA codex first came out there were all sorts of cries of cheese and over poweredness at my lgs

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Actually when the DA codex first came out there were all sorts of cries of cheese and over poweredness at my lgs

 

Same with my gaming group. People where fixated on the uber-munchiness of the Ravenwing/Deathwing combo.

 

Practive and experience showed it's flaws and it'll be the same with the Wolves.

[the great beaver]

The propaganda machines are in overdrive then.

 

"The wolves are not coming, and if they are, we will beat them"

 

"The wolves are not at the door, our armies have defeated them mercilessly"

 

"The space wolves have not come for".... "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggh"

 

*wolf howl*

 

this was awesome!

 

 

Has anyone actually said another chapter needed an update more than the Wolves did (not counting Grey Knights, that one could be argued)?

 

Granted the Old wolf dex was more powerful than say, the current Dark Angels dex, but I think everyone has accepted for a long time the wolves needed an update.

 

hehe...yeah...that was awesome how it was still broken :lol:

 

 

I say go win your games and don't worry about it... space wolves rock even though they took away some 4-5 powerfists I used to run but who cares...I'll still win and it's still fun and space wolves still rock!

 

this is one of the most balanced well written codexes I've ever seen.

[publius]

I wrote a little Apoc report from the weekend, and my regular gaming group don't like the SW codex. They were originally excited for it, now just don't like it.

 

While they tried to restrain from cries of Codex Creep previously (I didn't, it's one of my major gripes atm), the overall feeling isn't one of Codex Creep, but Codex Leap.

 

In thier eyes, the SW Codex has ramped the power level up more than any other new codex to date.

 

It has all the basics of the 'Nilla Marine Dex, but better. Either cheaper (hi hi LRR), or better load outs (like Ultra Grit).

 

On top of that, the 'flavour' units of the 'nilla dex (Sternguard being the top, but including the Ironclad and Thunderfire. Who uses a Conversion Beamer anyway?) just don't stand up to things like 33 point Terminators, Bjorn, Ragnar or TWC.

 

Plus the SW got all the new updated Toys (bar Transports sizes, but everyone's just concrned about Heavy 2 Cylones and 3++ Storm Shields here), and better lightning Claws.

 

In thier eyes, the SW codex (and I'm inclinded to agree) has made all the other current Marines Codexes redundant.

 

Use Logan and WG to make a Deathwing, Ravenwing, Jump Pack troop army. Outfight the BT in CC, and mix TDA guts with PA or put PA in with Scouts.

 

The only thing balanced in thier eyes in the Codex, were Fenrisian Wolves (which I found to underperform, but could see a use for them if you wanted to include an IC on a TWM in a 15 Wolf Squad...)

 

And quite frankly, for thier cost, TWC are insane. They're like Bloodcrushers, only better. :lol:

 

On top of that, Ragnar is an utter beast in CC, maybe even the best in the game. I'd like to see some mathhammer on him versus Abaddon. But if that fails, all you do is make sure you massacre another squad the turn before you engage Abaddon for some disgustingly increased amount of attacks.

 

And this isn't even touching thier Psychic Powers, or the frustratingly good 3+/4+ Runi Weapon Protection.

 

This isn't a rant from me, I very much enjoyed playing with the new Dex, and can't wait to get myself some mounted TWC going on.

 

I think the feeling comes form the fact there isn't *anything* bad or medicore of choice in the Codex. There's no 'fluffy' units you really wouldn't ever include.

 

If you haven't accepted the Codex Creep I've at least been noticing (since the Eldar Dex at least), I don't think anyone could fail to recognise it now.

 

Off the top of my head, from Codex: Space Marines I count the following things they have that the Space Wolves don't

 

Sternguard veterans (either 2+ wounding or AP3 rapid fire bolters)

Vanguard Veterans (Jumppack Wolfguard who can assault the turn they arrive)

BS/WS 4 bikers and jump pack troops

Vulkan (master-crafted flamers and meltaguns)

Cheaper Thunderhammer/Stormshield Terminators

Combat Tactics

Heavy Weapons in Tactical Squads

Thunderfire cannons

 

 

It's easy to focus on the good things about a new codex and ignore the missing elements, but I feel that codex creep is more often in the eye of the beholder.

[the great beaver]

I wrote a little Apoc report from the weekend, and my regular gaming group don't like the SW codex. They were originally excited for it, now just don't like it.

 

While they tried to restrain from cries of Codex Creep previously (I didn't, it's one of my major gripes atm), the overall feeling isn't one of Codex Creep, but Codex Leap.

 

In thier eyes, the SW Codex has ramped the power level up more than any other new codex to date.

 

It has all the basics of the 'Nilla Marine Dex, but better. Either cheaper (hi hi LRR), or better load outs (like Ultra Grit).

 

On top of that, the 'flavour' units of the 'nilla dex (Sternguard being the top, but including the Ironclad and Thunderfire. Who uses a Conversion Beamer anyway?) just don't stand up to things like 33 point Terminators, Bjorn, Ragnar or TWC.

 

Plus the SW got all the new updated Toys (bar Transports sizes, but everyone's just concrned about Heavy 2 Cylones and 3++ Storm Shields here), and better lightning Claws.

 

In thier eyes, the SW codex (and I'm inclinded to agree) has made all the other current Marines Codexes redundant.

 

Use Logan and WG to make a Deathwing, Ravenwing, Jump Pack troop army. Outfight the BT in CC, and mix TDA guts with PA or put PA in with Scouts.

 

The only thing balanced in thier eyes in the Codex, were Fenrisian Wolves (which I found to underperform, but could see a use for them if you wanted to include an IC on a TWM in a 15 Wolf Squad...)

 

And quite frankly, for thier cost, TWC are insane. They're like Bloodcrushers, only better. :lol:

 

On top of that, Ragnar is an utter beast in CC, maybe even the best in the game. I'd like to see some mathhammer on him versus Abaddon. But if that fails, all you do is make sure you massacre another squad the turn before you engage Abaddon for some disgustingly increased amount of attacks.

 

And this isn't even touching thier Psychic Powers, or the frustratingly good 3+/4+ Runi Weapon Protection.

 

This isn't a rant from me, I very much enjoyed playing with the new Dex, and can't wait to get myself some mounted TWC going on.

 

I think the feeling comes form the fact there isn't *anything* bad or medicore of choice in the Codex. There's no 'fluffy' units you really wouldn't ever include.

 

If you haven't accepted the Codex Creep I've at least been noticing (since the Eldar Dex at least), I don't think anyone could fail to recognise it now.

 

I'm sorry but I totally disagree...there is no codex creep...what you're seeing is simply that current codexes are built around the current edition and work properly with it while old codexes don't do as good of a job in one degree or another. I play warmachine so I can smell broken a mile away and I've got to say that this codex is so well balanced I can't believe it.

 

they took our powerfist delivery force away and made all power weapons expensive. they didn't give us any of the specialized weaponry of the marine dex like the thunderfire cannon, the ironclad or the scout transport. we still can't teleport and we still can't take an all TDA army because logan makes them count as troops not "may be taken as troops".

 

our fancy abilities come on super expensive ICs that don't even give army wide benefits to the army (falling back at will, or any number of other awesome abilities that SM players can get) and instead only buff one squad at a time while being more expensive than most ICs out there.

 

they even made sure we didn't have broken transports that fit extra models like the SMs do.

 

if that's not a trimming then I don't know what your opponents want from you. do they want you to have almost no heavy weapons plus no power weapons plus very few attacks in CC plus no way to get to CC effectively?

 

 

 

 

It's easy to focus on the good things about a new codex and ignore the missing elements, but I feel that codex creep is more often in the eye of the beholder.

 

 

here here!

[Arkio]

my view on this subject in honestly that you wolves are the newest book. Such is the situation where you are now the benchmark for all the fear of codex creep and such. if you were playing an older book or a half book like BA/DA are playing would you not be stoked that you manged to snatch victory from one of the more intimidating army list creations that will come from that book. Its to be expected, i was excited to see a new book for the wolves as when i started playing some 12 years ago i wanted to play wolves but we had no game store here so it was hard to get a codex. painted a full tactical squad. then received a deathcompany with an old 2nd ed jump pack BA chappy and i was converted.

 

i'm currently on the fence for wether i want to build a SW army as my second army or a nids list in january

[Hfran Morkai]

Sometimes the Wolves will rise and other times they will fall, such is the fate of the chapter.

[Brother Grius]

I wrote a little Apoc report from the weekend, and my regular gaming group don't like the SW codex. They were originally excited for it, now just don't like it.

 

While they tried to restrain from cries of Codex Creep previously (I didn't, it's one of my major gripes atm), the overall feeling isn't one of Codex Creep, but Codex Leap.

 

In thier eyes, the SW Codex has ramped the power level up more than any other new codex to date.

 

It has all the basics of the 'Nilla Marine Dex, but better. Either cheaper (hi hi LRR), or better load outs (like Ultra Grit).

 

On top of that, the 'flavour' units of the 'nilla dex (Sternguard being the top, but including the Ironclad and Thunderfire. Who uses a Conversion Beamer anyway?) just don't stand up to things like 33 point Terminators, Bjorn, Ragnar or TWC.

 

Plus the SW got all the new updated Toys (bar Transports sizes, but everyone's just concrned about Heavy 2 Cylones and 3++ Storm Shields here), and better lightning Claws.

 

In thier eyes, the SW codex (and I'm inclinded to agree) has made all the other current Marines Codexes redundant.

 

Use Logan and WG to make a Deathwing, Ravenwing, Jump Pack troop army. Outfight the BT in CC, and mix TDA guts with PA or put PA in with Scouts.

 

The only thing balanced in thier eyes in the Codex, were Fenrisian Wolves (which I found to underperform, but could see a use for them if you wanted to include an IC on a TWM in a 15 Wolf Squad...)

 

And quite frankly, for thier cost, TWC are insane. They're like Bloodcrushers, only better. :D

 

On top of that, Ragnar is an utter beast in CC, maybe even the best in the game. I'd like to see some mathhammer on him versus Abaddon. But if that fails, all you do is make sure you massacre another squad the turn before you engage Abaddon for some disgustingly increased amount of attacks.

 

And this isn't even touching thier Psychic Powers, or the frustratingly good 3+/4+ Runi Weapon Protection.

 

This isn't a rant from me, I very much enjoyed playing with the new Dex, and can't wait to get myself some mounted TWC going on.

 

I think the feeling comes form the fact there isn't *anything* bad or medicore of choice in the Codex. There's no 'fluffy' units you really wouldn't ever include.

 

If you haven't accepted the Codex Creep I've at least been noticing (since the Eldar Dex at least), I don't think anyone could fail to recognise it now.

 

Space Wolves have to pay more fer Termies than anyone else. Also, the 33 point Terminators come with a power weapon and must pay for a power fist. This is not only fair, but keeps the wolves in line with how they've always had their choice of wargear. If you disbelieve, go check out the Chaos codex.

 

Some older codex are not very functional in the fifth edition rules, but I genuinely feel that each of the codex released after 5th edition have been balanced and fixed my biggest complaint: Many armies only have one or two effective builds.

[Leethal]

Well, I just a 2000 point wolf list take on a 2000 point Thousand son list.

 

Interesting battle to say in the least. Your Crazy CC Lords put some Khorne Lords to shame. Seriously. I honestly once belived it was impossible to wipe out a 12 man thousand Son squad in 1 turn of combat. Wolf Lord On Steroid Doggy proved me wrong.

 

 

Many players understand how to defeat 2nd Wolves with some degree of tactics and luck. People just do not like adapting. Honestly, my tactics to handling wolves changed drastically. I no longer fear Blood Claws to a ridiculous amount; gunline armies are highly redundant against 5th Wolves.

 

In all honesty, I belive GW is making crazy codexes just to sell more transports. Seriously. Every new army that came out has to bring transports, new shiny vehicles, or must be countered by transports and vehicles.

 

Perhaps GW Marketing is much more crafty then we thought...

[Gentlemanloser]

Gonna be a few edit in's here. :rolleyes:

 

Off the top of my head, from Codex: Space Marines I count the following things they have that the Space Wolves don't

 

Sternguard veterans (either 2+ wounding or AP3 rapid fire bolters)

Vanguard Veterans (Jumppack Wolfguard who can assault the turn they arrive)

BS/WS 4 bikers and jump pack troops

Vulkan (master-crafted flamers and meltaguns)

Cheaper Thunderhammer/Stormshield Terminators

Combat Tactics

Heavy Weapons in Tactical Squads

Thunderfire cannons

 

 

It's easy to focus on the good things about a new codex and ignore the missing elements, but I feel that codex creep is more often in the eye of the beholder.

 

No one uses Vanguard. Seriously. Overpriced and Heroic Intervention is /meh.

Yeah BS/WS 4 Bikers and Jump Troops. Or +2 attacks on the charge with counterattack. Or very expensive by ultra versatile WG Bikers/Jumpers.

Vulkan is ok, but Pales in comparison to Ragnar. Or Njal. Or Bjorn.

Sure Cheaper TH/SS Termies. But most times you don't want a whole squad of TH/SS. There's no versatility there.

Combat Tactics is ok. But will just about always be replaced with a Chapter Tactics of some sort.

I know Marine players that would kill (ex sallies) to get two specials back, plus SW get +1 Heavy in the Dev Squads.

I inlcuded Sternguard and Thunderfires originally. (I still think Sternguard in Drop Pods are stupidly powerful, and quite possibly the best thing (alongside the LRR) in the 'nilla dex. But that's a peak to the dex. Nothing else in there matches them).

 

I'm sorry but I totally disagree...there is no codex creep...what you're seeing is simply that current codexes are built around the current edition and work properly with it while old codexes don't do as good of a job in one degree or another. I play warmachine so I can smell broken a mile away and I've got to say that this codex is so well balanced I can't believe it.

 

SM Codex was built around 5th. It's no where near as powerful as the new SW Dex.

 

they took our powerfist delivery force away and made all power weapons expensive. they didn't give us any of the specialized weaponry of the marine dex like the thunderfire cannon, the ironclad or the scout transport. we still can't teleport and we still can't take an all TDA army because logan makes them count as troops not "may be taken as troops".

 

SW got Bjorn, a Plethora of Melta bombs, everywhere, and Rending. Oh so much Rending.

 

As for Logan... That's something we'll have to agree to disagree on. :unsure:

 

our fancy abilities come on super expensive ICs that don't even give army wide benefits to the army (falling back at will, or any number of other awesome abilities that SM players can get) and instead only buff one squad at a time while being more expensive than most ICs out there.

 

Try Ragnar in CC. You won't care he doesn't give an army wide boost (well you get Saga of the Wolfkin for that. :unsure: ) when he rolls over everyone.

 

if that's not a trimming then I don't know what your opponents want from you. do they want you to have almost no heavy weapons plus no power weapons plus very few attacks in CC plus no way to get to CC effectively?

 

Almost no heavy wepaons? Sorry. Cheaper LLR, 5 Heavy Weapon Dev Squads. Ultra customisable Terminators. S10 Thunderhammers a go go. How could you *possibly* want more?

 

Oh and Rending. Lots of Rending. (And that's ignroeing the 6" Railgun, or the ease of multiple Meltabombs

 

Then there's BEL (or BS4 Snipers) And 2W T5 Marines. with a potential 24" Charge.

 

Edit: Very few Attacks in CC? There's a difference between BP/CCW and 1 base attacks to the Mark, Ultra Grit, Bloodclaw +2 on the charge, Rangar, or the TWC's 4!

 

There's a massive leap, betweent he two dex's number of attacks.

 

Space Wolves have to pay more fer Termies than anyone else. Also, the 33 point Terminators come with a power weapon and must pay for a power fist. This is not only fair, but keeps the wolves in line with how they've always had their choice of wargear. If you disbelieve, go check out the Chaos codex.

 

Some older codex are not very functional in the fifth edition rules, but I genuinely feel that each of the codex released after 5th edition have been balanced and fixed my biggest complaint: Many armies only have one or two effective builds.

 

Not really. You get the Cheapest Terminators bar Chaos. But get ATSKNF for those three points. Sure, if you try to trick out a full TH/SS Squad, you'l pay more. But then I feel a whole TH/SS squad is wasteful anyway, and WG versatility more than makes up for that.

 

There's no way the newer codexes are balanced. Daemons can be utterly OP when facing MEQ armies. SW are a cut above 'nilla marines. I'm sure you've all read the 'leafblower' Ard Boyz IG reports.

 

I readily accept I'm not really going to be able to pursaude any SW players that the new Dex is such a cut above the rest. ;) But form impartial players eyes, this isn't a green tinge of jeaoulsy (especially as i'll be using the Dex until the GK get a new one in hopefully 5 years time...)

 

And we shouldn't forget better than LC LCs, or the utter Gravy Prefered Enemy is, easily available for your hard hitting CC squad. BT's be damned! ;)

 

Oh and Wolf Standards.

[Looted Monolith]

Yeah!!!

[the great beaver]

Gonna be a few edit in's here. :D

 

Off the top of my head, from Codex: Space Marines I count the following things they have that the Space Wolves don't

 

Sternguard veterans (either 2+ wounding or AP3 rapid fire bolters)

Vanguard Veterans (Jumppack Wolfguard who can assault the turn they arrive)

BS/WS 4 bikers and jump pack troops

Vulkan (master-crafted flamers and meltaguns)

Cheaper Thunderhammer/Stormshield Terminators

Combat Tactics

Heavy Weapons in Tactical Squads

Thunderfire cannons

 

 

It's easy to focus on the good things about a new codex and ignore the missing elements, but I feel that codex creep is more often in the eye of the beholder.

 

No one uses Vanguard. Seriously. Overpriced and Heroic Intervention is /meh.

Yeah BS/WS 4 Bikers and Jump Troops. Or +2 attacks on the charge with counterattack. Or very expensive by ultra versatile WG Bikers/Jumpers.

Vulkan is ok, but Pales in comparison to Ragnar. Or Njal. Or Bjorn.

Sure Cheaper TH/SS Termies. But most times you don't want a whole squad of TH/SS. There's no versatility there.

Combat Tactics is ok. But will just about always be replaced with a Chapter Tactics of some sort.

I know Marine players that would kill (ex sallies) to get two specials back, plus SW get +1 Heavy in the Dev Squads.

I inlcuded Sternguard and Thunderfires originally. (I still think Sternguard in Drop Pods are stupidly powerful, and quite possibly the best thing (alongside the LRR) in the 'nilla dex. But that's a peak to the dex. Nothing else in there matches them).

 

whoa buddy!

 

-bs 4 bikers and jump troops means you can tank hunt effectively...who's counter charging with bikers too?

a-nd VULKAN is okay?!? he makes your entire army awesome and he never needs to do anything to succeed at making your army awesome. if Ragnar doesn't get to CC he was a giant waste of points...and he doesn't have eternal warrior so a powerfist to the head drops him. and guess where you find powerfists? in CC which is the only place he's effective.

-sure our termies are cheaper but yours are customizable!!! really? wasting more points on over kitted WG is something you want? Frakin go for it cuz it sucks and you just don't know it because your not given the option to waste %25 of your pts on wargear that may or may not get used

-combat tactics is okay...fine whatever...you have marines to waste...oh but wait!! if combat tactics isn't what you want you can have other FREE army wide abilities!

-yes two special weapons is awesome...but our vehicles only carry ten models so it's either a sargeant or an extra special most of the time...eat your 12 spot drop pods and rhino's and LRs and cry me a river!

 

 

I'm sorry but I totally disagree...there is no codex creep...what you're seeing is simply that current codexes are built around the current edition and work properly with it while old codexes don't do as good of a job in one degree or another. I play warmachine so I can smell broken a mile away and I've got to say that this codex is so well balanced I can't believe it.

 

SM Codex was built around 5th. It's no where near as powerful as the new SW Dex.

 

 

really? because I remember a few games now where i've had to walk barenaked uphill through 20 feet of snow during a bolter/plasma/melta/lascannon hail storm hoping my CC "gods" would make it to combat so I could fight some of those cheap terminators you balk at.

 

it was awesome :P

 

they took our powerfist delivery force away and made all power weapons expensive. they didn't give us any of the specialized weaponry of the marine dex like the thunderfire cannon, the ironclad or the scout transport. we still can't teleport and we still can't take an all TDA army because logan makes them count as troops not "may be taken as troops".

 

SW got Bjorn, a Plethora of Melta bombs, everywhere, and Rending. Oh so much Rending.

 

As for Logan... That's something we'll have to agree to disagree on. ;)

 

hey, I'll trade you a rending grey hunter for a lascannon which will shoot his transport and make him walk across the board through split squads of 5 men with plasma guns who'll shoot him before he can rend anything?

 

whanna trade?

 

our fancy abilities come on super expensive ICs that don't even give army wide benefits to the army (falling back at will, or any number of other awesome abilities that SM players can get) and instead only buff one squad at a time while being more expensive than most ICs out there.

 

Try Ragnar in CC. You won't care he doesn't give an army wide boost (well you get Saga of the Wolfkin for that. ;) ) when he rolls over everyone.

 

he's only good at one thing and he doesn't ignore instant death...you'd think they'd make him killy enough to not only be good for one round of combat. again, passive abilities on SM commanders means that even if they don't get into HTH they still add benefit to the army. it's not better one way or the other but army wide abilities provides a more versatile tactical pallete for your turns and considering how wet you are for over expensive WG with lots of options you'd think you'd have some respect for being able to customize how your entire army becomes awesome by picking 1 guy to lead your army.

if that's not a trimming then I don't know what your opponents want from you. do they want you to have almost no heavy weapons plus no power weapons plus very few attacks in CC plus no way to get to CC effectively?

 

Almost no heavy wepaons? Sorry. Cheaper LLR, 5 Heavy Weapon Dev Squads. Ultra customisable Terminators. S10 Thunderhammers a go go. How could you *possibly* want more?

 

Oh and Rending. Lots of Rending. (And that's ignroeing the 6" Railgun, or the ease of multiple Meltabombs

 

Then there's BEL (or BS4 Snipers) And 2W T5 Marines. with a potential 24" Charge.

 

Edit: Very few Attacks in CC? There's a difference between BP/CCW and 1 base attacks to the Mark, Ultra Grit, Bloodclaw +2 on the charge, Rangar, or the TWC's 4!

 

There's a massive leap, betweent he two dex's number of attacks.

- long fangs finally don't suck and your afraid of them?...does "no ablative wounds" mean anything to you? they have 5 guys because they have no bolter guys to suck up shots...it's a fair trade and your Dev teams are more survivable and they can split up for even more versatility...

 

and customizable terminators aren't heavy weapons...heavy weapons are things you shoot CC guys with so they don't CC you in the face...that's what SM do and they do it painfully well and cheaply and effectively.

 

and where are you seeing st10 thunderhammers in more than 1 place?

 

and where are you seeing lots of rending....genestealers are lots of rending...having 4 guys with d6 rending attacks in a 2000pt army is not lots of rending...

 

and lastly...slow down

 

mark of the wolfen replaces your base attack stat with a d6

what's ultra grit?

bloodclaws LOST access to multiple cheap powerfists...that's called a nerf my friend...and they're still BS/WS3...

ragnar is over 250pts and can only do 1 thing

and what did you mean by TWC's 4?

 

generally without spending +250 pts on an IC our models are getting 1-2 more attacks in melee than your avg space marine

 

your tac squads get 1 attack base and 2 on the charge

ours get 2 attacks base and 3 on the charge

 

your assault troops get 2 attacks base and 3 on the charge with BS/WS4

our assault troops get 2 attacks base and 4 on the charge with BS/WS3

 

your chaplains and librarians get the same number of attacks as ours

 

your chapter master and captain get 1 less attack than our wolf lord and wolf guard battle leader

 

ragnar is the only exception and he costs over 250pts and will die to a single :cuss with a powerfist on a d6 roll of 1-2-3

 

 

Space Wolves have to pay more fer Termies than anyone else. Also, the 33 point Terminators come with a power weapon and must pay for a power fist. This is not only fair, but keeps the wolves in line with how they've always had their choice of wargear. If you disbelieve, go check out the Chaos codex.

 

Some older codex are not very functional in the fifth edition rules, but I genuinely feel that each of the codex released after 5th edition have been balanced and fixed my biggest complaint: Many armies only have one or two effective builds.

 

Not really. You get the Cheapest Terminators bar Chaos. But get ATSKNF for those three points. Sure, if you try to trick out a full TH/SS Squad, you'l pay more. But then I feel a whole TH/SS squad is wasteful anyway, and WG versatility more than makes up for that.

but when you use that versatility the price of our wg skyrockets very very quickly. add to that our expensive HQs and you can find yourself without enough troops or heavies to be able to handle all the missions or take on all comers. with unlimited pts its great but in your avg 1500pt game it's hard to fit the bare minimum stuff you need in let alone start going hogwild with options.

There's no way the newer codexes are balanced. Daemons can be utterly OP when facing MEQ armies. SW are a cut above 'nilla marines. I'm sure you've all read the 'leafblower' Ard Boyz IG reports.

 

I readily accept I'm not really going to be able to pursaude any SW players that the new Dex is such a cut above the rest. ;) But form impartial players eyes, this isn't a green tinge of jeaoulsy (especially as i'll be using the Dex until the GK get a new one in hopefully 5 years time...)

 

And we shouldn't forget better than LC LCs, or the utter Gravy Prefered Enemy is, easily available for your hard hitting CC squad. BT's be damned! ;)

 

Oh and Wolf Standards.

 

lame... should we get no good nuggets of joy? do other armies have none? they're just new and they cost a lot of pts to use them all.

 

go...play with our dex and come back to me in a months time and say you lost no games....if you play GKs then I know why your whining, but if you play standar SMs then I have no idea because you have so many more options and so many more avenues to take to making hard hitting, shooty armies with plenty of CC to be able to take on whatever can slog through the frak storm any good SM player can put up in the shooting phase.

[Race Bannon]

Gentlemen, rest your sphincters, we are just sharing opinions, not trying to convince another person is wrong.

 

Yesterday, my response was a little premature but I DID say "On the surface".

 

I decided, during a quiet moment at work, to actually run the numbers. I compared a Tactical Squad to a Grey Hunter squad where the TS was the model. Since SW do not have "Sergeants" I decided to buy a WG to represent the GH Sergeant. Then I made pro/cons for each unit. My results, although not awesome by scientific standards made me rethink my opinion on the SW Codex. Then, I followed the same pattern for Assault/Skyclaw, Bike/Swiftwind, Dev/LF. The big variable was that by including a WG as the Sergeant, the weapon options for that one model was simply superior in every way to the SM Sergeant. In my eyes, this makes the SW better.

 

So, on paper, the SW Codex SEEMS a little better, but not by leaps and bounds. The SM Codex DOES allow the player to do more, it just depends on the choices made and application of those choices - which really goes without saying. Keep in mind that some options are not even available to SW (SG ammo, Thunderfire for examples)

 

As for characters, SW kicks the puppy guts out of SM characters, but their cost is the muzzle.

 

Bottom line, I'm looking at the SW Codex, less with a shake of the head, and more with a shrug. The SW fluff is my favorite, and has been since 2nd Ed. I've been painting models with SW logos since Rogue Trader. I have not played a SW army until 2 years ago because I was tired of looking at the lists with envy. Now I have a chance to give it a try and I plan on it. But not with frothing mouth and sharpened claws.

[JamesI]

.

 

So, on paper, the SW Codex SEEMS a little better, but not by leaps and bounds. The SM Codex DOES allow the player to do more, it just depends on the choices made and application of those choices - which really goes without saying. Keep in mind that some options are not even available to SW (SG ammo, Thunderfire for examples)

 

As for characters, SW kicks the puppy guts out of SM characters, but their cost is the muzzle.

 

Bottom line, I'm looking at the SW Codex, less with a shake of the head, and more with a shrug.

Isn't that the way it should be? Wolves are a lot better than codex marines at the things Wolves should do well, but total flexibility favors Codex Marines.