Footslogging armies to beat the meta-game

[minigun762]

I think most people would agree that 5th Edition is all about mechanized armies. Most competitive armies are, atleast in part, bringing transports to the battlefield.

Because of this, people build their lists to combat the assumption that their opponent will be mechanized.

 

My question to the group is this

Is the advantage of not playing the mechanized meta-game and footslogging your army worth the disadvantages associated with having no transports?

 

Some food for thought, the average 1500 point Marine army probably has about 10% of its point cost invested in dedicated transports like Drop Pods, Rhinos, Razorbacks (Land Raiders are excluded from this). If that 10% was freed up by footslogging, would it make a difference?

[Koremu]

I think most people would agree that 5th Edition is all about mechanized armies. Most competitive armies are, atleast in part, bringing transports to the battlefield.

Because of this, people build their lists to combat the assumption that their opponent will be mechanized.

 

My question to the group is this

Is the advantage of not playing the mechanized meta-game and footslogging your army worth the disadvantages associated with having no transports?

 

Some food for thought, the average 1500 point Marine army probably has about 10% of its point cost invested in dedicated transports like Drop Pods, Rhinos, Razorbacks (Land Raiders are excluded from this). If that 10% was freed up by footslogging, would it make a difference?

The simple answer to this is "no", because the Rhino is enough of a Force Multiplier alone that it is worth that 10%.

 

Without a Rhino, the 175 to 200 (ish) points spent on a Tactical Squad will get maybe 3 turns of full scale combat. With a Rhino, you'll get 4, maybe more if lucky. A Rhino is cheaper that 1/3rd of a Tactical Squad...

 

And that's before you get into the survivability aspect, where the Rhino helps even more.

 

So yeah, essentially, Astartes come in Transports. In my view this is entirely fluffy - you don't ask your ultimate warriors to walk everywhere. The only times you don't need to take them is if you know you are defending a static defense line.

[Warp Angel]

In an era when you have to deal with dual lash princes and hordes of AP3 or better template weapons from guard, you at least need the option of going mechanized in any given battle.

 

When you factor in that the new 'nids 'dex is coming out soon, and rumors have it that they'll be the swarm army to end all swarm armies, being on foot means you die where you stand... transports offer protection from the little bugs and mobility to escape the bigger ones.

 

Let's not forget the need to take objectives - your tactical squads need to get there somehow, and spending an extra turn or two loping across the board means an extra turn or two for them to be killed or weakened.

 

From a pure Killhammer perspective, it increases K2 (time to target), decreases S (takes away options), and is, at best, a net wash at total D (I think it's a loss there as well). When you factor in the additional number of turns you're exposed to Risk, I can't support not fielding transports for the vast majority of your infantry.

[Kronk]

Footslogging just doesn't cut it for my Black Templars. I play against Tau and IG 1/2 of the time. I'm lucky if 4 guys from a 20-man crusade squad can make it into close combat. And that's when I have lots of cover to hide behind.

 

I might get by with 1 squad on foot, but everyone else is storming across in Rhinos. Sometimes Landraiders, if I can afford them.

 

Yeah, these guys know I have foot sloggers, but if I try to hoof it, they also have plenty of templates. Trying to play that metagame gets my Templars killed.

[Paulochromis]

The footsloggers can achieve some measure of success vis-a-vis the meta-game if they render the opponents anti-tank/vehicle weapons useless.

The problem is that those weapons are also effective against plain infantry. What you then need is target saturation & resilience -> hordes.

Problem then is opponents range (often good) versus your speed (higher speed, eg jump packs, bikes, ... comes at a cost that negates higher numbers).

The only saving grace is cover - I reckon a footslogging army might still be effective in Cities of Death .

The only other place I see it working is in an all infiltrating/outflanking and/or scouting army, but then you really need first turn, or good odds to steal the initiative.

 

Cheers, Paul.

[minigun762]

I understandably went into this with the assumption that the answer to my question is no, but I feel that this sort of discussion is necessary to get people thinking and not just parroting the same advice "go mech!" without thinking why.

 

What you then need is target saturation & resilience -> hordes

Absolutely. Its funny because I have heard time and time again that the scariest army to fight is a Marine horde army, but you never see people play those.

And when I say Marine horde I don't just mean 50% of your point spent as Troops, I mean 50+ MEQs in a 1500 point game, a true horde.

 

This kind of anecdotal evidence seems to fly in the face of the current meta game that says load up in transports.

 

Or would the correct understanding be to field a Mechanized Marine horde?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Mmmm, interesting question.

 

I play 1500pts BTs against Orks most of the time and don't have any transports. This works well for me so far. Orks can't shoot and the small damage they do only RZs me closer. :D

 

Would this work against Eldar, Tau and IG? - I don't know if I would have the freedom to RUN across the table like I do now. The higher BS and range these armies enjoy, plus Tau and Eldar mobility could see my men running around in circles and never making the connection into melee. :yes:

 

I think GW has 'gameplayed' it so that transports will be so cheap they must be good value. Point in case; Rhinos were 50 pts 4th ed and are now 35 pts. Tanks are tougher in this version. That is two bonuses for transports.

 

Another 'gameplay' item is Lascannons for Devastators. If LCs were cheap, then every man and his dog would take them and just camp in his deployment zone. So they made them expensive so that it would not be the default setting. Same deal with the tri-las Pred, increase the cost because the skill of using it is low. That's why I have one. :)

 

LCs and Multimeltas have a 'effectiveness cross over' in tank hunting. To encourage players to be cavalier and interact with the enemy, instead of just camping in their deployment zone and rolling a handful of dice each turn, they made MMs quite cheap to bring some thrust and parry to it all.

 

I think this 'gameplay-weighting' GW has installed is a good thing.

 

It is like the terrain positioning deal, put it in the middle to encourage tactics and to stop gunline versus gunline games.

 

Maybe you can get away with it against melee armies but against shooters/movers I think transports are made so attractive that you'd have to buy them....

[Grey Mage]

I think most people would agree that 5th Edition is all about mechanized armies. Most competitive armies are, atleast in part, bringing transports to the battlefield.

Because of this, people build their lists to combat the assumption that their opponent will be mechanized.

 

My question to the group is this

Is the advantage of not playing the mechanized meta-game and footslogging your army worth the disadvantages associated with having no transports?

 

Some food for thought, the average 1500 point Marine army probably has about 10% of its point cost invested in dedicated transports like Drop Pods, Rhinos, Razorbacks (Land Raiders are excluded from this). If that 10% was freed up by footslogging, would it make a difference?

Rhinos give one, and only one advantage over footslogging armies on a properly terrained 6x4 table- your immune to S 3 and S 4 weaponry to the front and side.

 

That is powerful, but its not agressive. The key to using a footslogging army is keeping your volley of fire high with some units, while running as fast as possible with others. Of course, said units dont have to be, and perhaps shouldnt be, the same each turn- run when it is tactically preferable to shooting, shoot whenever it is tactically effective to do so.

 

One of the best examples of this is Eldar Dire Avengers- take 2 or 4 squads with a Bladestorming Exarch- spring forward, bladestorm with 1/2 the units. Next turn, back them up and the others forward, then shoot the still loaded squads while the others run away as fast as you can roll a d6.

 

Marines do much the same, except for running away you just advance steadily from cover to cover- for each squad moving another squad fires, and support elements pound. Use as much cover as humanly possible and have landspeeders, attack bikes, and dreadnaughts to keep your mobility high.

[Giga]

The thing with this is... I don't really think omitting transports will make a difference between a horde and a non-horde army.

 

Rhinos are 35 points a piece. In a 1500 game, you'll at best have 3 or 4 of them. That's 105-140 pts that give you a massive boost in survivability, mobility, and game fun (seriously, footslogging 50+ MEQ is an exercise in boredom, just the movement phase will take ages).

 

So ask yourself, will those 105-140 points you omit really make all that big of a difference? Will it really allow you to have a "MEQ horde"? At best, you'll be able to buy a full squad of scouts, at the cost of your entire army footslogging.

 

I don't think it's worth it.

[jeffersonian000]

I will admit that my bane is a Horde army camping on Objectives in a tournament. Can't do enough damage to keep them from winning, and am lucky if I can force a draw by the end of the game.

 

Yes, footslogging does have its place in 5th edition; however, it's a rock, paper, scissor sort of army. There is always a counter that you cannot deal with in any list that is focused all to one side of a build option. Competitive does not mean balanced, though; it means that it has a strong chance of doing well. In the case of footsloggers, unless your opponent is planning on dealing with a horde and builds for it, 2/3 of the games you play will be to your advantage.

 

SJ

[minigun762]

The thing with this is... I don't really think omitting transports will make a difference between a horde and a non-horde army.

 

Rhinos are 35 points a piece. In a 1500 game, you'll at best have 3 or 4 of them. That's 105-140 pts that give you a massive boost in survivability, mobility, and game fun (seriously, footslogging 50+ MEQ is an exercise in boredom, just the movement phase will take ages).

 

So ask yourself, will those 105-140 points you omit really make all that big of a difference? Will it really allow you to have a "MEQ horde"? At best, you'll be able to buy a full squad of scouts, at the cost of your entire army footslogging.

 

I don't think it's worth it.

 

And thats why I mentioned the 10% cost, its a decent amount of points but it is likely to only buy you 1 squad or unit.

 

Like Marshal Willhelm said, I think it just might be a case that the Transports are just so cheap, you really have no reason not to take them. Now for other armies with more expensive Transports it might be more of an issue but those armies tend to lack the natural durability of a Marine and rely on their transport for protection just as much as movement.

[avatar8481]

The footsloggers can achieve some measure of success vis-a-vis the meta-game if they render the opponents anti-tank/vehicle weapons useless.

 

I'd rather be in the vehicle and only vulnerable to 30% of the enemy army than out of the vehicle and vulnerable to 100% of the enemy army.

[Cheese Elemental]

Do Drop Pod armies count as mech? Considering that DPs are a transport and can provide both cover and shooting, I'd say so... not to mention that they reach the enemy as soon as they enter play, as opposed to Rhinos/Razorbacks which have to drive across the board.

[minigun762]

Do Drop Pod armies count as mech? Considering that DPs are a transport and can provide both cover and shooting, I'd say so... not to mention that they reach the enemy as soon as they enter play, as opposed to Rhinos/Razorbacks which have to drive across the board.

 

I'd say they're similar to Mechanized armies in some regard.

The main difference is that you're trading 1 safe deployment almost anywhere for multiple turns of faster movement on the board.

[Cheese Elemental]

Is that a good or a bad thing then?

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

I don't like all drop, but then again I like continuity of effect.

 

Good to see you here from Dakka, Cheese.

[Grey Mage]

Is that a good or a bad thing then?

It depends on the game, and how your playstyle works.

 

For me, the advantages to going mech are nearly nill.

 

 

I find a player with a decently balanced list, unless it is one that naturally lacks all shooting, will simply stun a transport laden armies tanks turn, after turn, after turn... and all of those rhinos were for nothing as they eventually explode or sit their useless half the time. Most lists wont put extra armor on them to stop this- because the thing about transports in new marine codices is that they are dirt cheap, and adding on an extra 50% of their value seems monstrously expensive.

 

The few exceptions to this are some nid players, some sisters players, and Daemons.....

 

Everyone else should have the ability to just keep smacking you.

[Cheese Elemental]

I'm used to Deep Striking armies as I also play a Khornezilla Daemon list (two Bloodthirsters, three Daemon Princes, lots of Bloodcrushers), so I suppose a Drop Pod army plays like that, except without dumping five MCs and an obscene amount of PW attacks in your face. I suspect that my Drop Pods will largely be left for my Space Wolves as my vanilla Marine army revolves around a full thirty teleporting Terminators and Land Raider spam.

 

Good to see you here from Dakka, Cheese.

Yeah, I got permabanned for arguing with a moderator. Hardly fair if you ask me.

[Giga]

I find a player with a decently balanced list, unless it is one that naturally lacks all shooting, will simply stun a transport laden armies tanks turn, after turn, after turn... and all of those rhinos were for nothing as they eventually explode or sit their useless half the time.

I don't know what's your local metagame like, or what kind of tables you play on, but I think you're grossly overestimating your opponent's anti-transport abilities.

 

1) if you're packing 2-3 rhinos/razorbacks + a land raider with termies inside (like I usually do), it takes a whole lot of anti-tank to mess with all that.

 

2) if you're using cover, smoke launchers, and vehicles as a way to give cover to each other, you're making an already durable group of transports even more durable.

 

3) a stunned rhino can still be disembarked out of, and the passengers can still move 6" and then run if need be, hence your army is only slowed down, and no matter how you take it it's always faster then a non-mech army.

 

4) one of the big points of transports is that an enemy will spend his firepower shooting at a 35 point rhino, while your troops are (relatively) safe inside. At worst, the rhino will explode and you'll lose 1-2 marines in the explosion, but that still protects your marines from a whole lot of enemy fire. In effect, it's always better to have a stunned/destroyed rhino, then to have that anti-tank/anti-infantry firepower falling on your tacticals.

 

5) transports are essential in that they give your infantry a 100% immunity to nasty psychic powers, such as lash, jaws of the world wolf, wind of chaos, avenger, vortex of doom, etc.

 

6) razorbacks are the sort of transport that you never have to transport anything in to make them useful. Having a TL heavy bolter platform that can also transport a command squad, or a combat squad, or w/e is always good. If your enemy ignores it, it's prone to kill enough to pay for its points. If your enemy shoots at it, it's good because it means he's not shooting at your land raider or your speeders or your attack bikes, etc.

 

7) finally, there's target saturation. In balanced lists, there's usually lots of dangerous stuff in the form of mm attack bikes, land raiders, mm/hf or typhoon speeders, vindicators, sternguard, etc. An opponent who ignores these to go after your rhinos is effectively handling you the win, because he'll basically be trading his tougher tanks and heavy infantry for your transports.

[waaanial00]

In some respects I can see why not going Mech would be a fairly decent option, especially if you are playing against a Marine MEQ army. If your opponent is going to be racing to get into the same optimum killing zone as yourself AND sacrificing certain heavy weapons shooting in order to achieve it, I see a reason for not speding the extra 15% per squad (approximate cost of Rhino in reltation to Tactical Squad cost).

 

The force modification of the Rhino diminishes if the enemy is also in Rhinos because it then becomes a case of whoever gets out last is in a better position to make the bonus count. Obviously killing a transport and leaving the contents fairly unharmed is not as good as killing the contents because they have just disembaked.

 

It all depends on what your force is comprised of really. Tacticals in general are not very good gunline troops because their maximum range is too short and they cannot boast enough heavy weapons to compensate. However things like Dreadnoughts, Landspeeder Typhoons, Predators, Thunderfire cannons, Snipers and even your humble Servitors. All do much better facing off against a Mech force because they are set up to shoot high strength weapons over a long distance (snipers are fairly good at taking out Rhinos if you pack enough).

 

Going Mech is more about traiding long ranged firepower and numbers for speedy delivery into optimum combat ranges and immunity from small arms. If you are constantly up against an opponent who is doing the exact same then maybe going footslogging is the way to go. The key will be to use the extra points on weapons which will combat Mech more than anything, if you are just buying more tactical squads then I dont see the point.

 

Wan

[minigun762]

With the Run option introduced in 5th, I would have expected to have Footslogging been more viable now, but the opposite has happened.

 

People talk about the protection of small arms fire due to the Rhino, which is true but Marines do come fairly well equipped for taking small arms fire with T4 and a 3+ save, not to mention most small arms fire is 24" or less, so once they can fire at you, you should be within your strongest range.

 

The other element is that most armies have some units with increased durability that can be put at the front of the Marine wave, to absorb fire and give those units behind them a cover save. A squad of 10 Terminators seems like a perfect choice as bullet sponges and cover save givers.

[Warp Angel]

Minigun: Template weapons got a LOT better. No more partials, deviations got smaller. Vindicators got cheaper, so did plasma cannons. There's this thing called "Lash of Submission", and a mechanized opponent can always prevent those T4 3+ guys with anti-infantry weapons running across the table from having effective targets for shooting.

 

Yes, the footsloggers can absorb an amazing amount of the light firepower. But no, they can't absorb a high amount of the heavier stuff. Yes the footsloggers can put out a withering amount of anti-infantry firepower as they advance, but it's mostly useless against AV11.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Good to see you here from Dakka, Cheese.

Yeah, I got permabanned for arguing with a moderator. Hardly fair if you ask me.

;)

 

Which one? Your profile says "relaxing in banland", btw.

[Muctar]

This thread applies to a game my buddy and myself played in last weekend at a doubles tournament. We were IG, and SM (myself), as were our opponents. I ran a mech list with 2 rhinos and tacs for each, DP'd Dread, and assault squad w/chaplain, and my partner ran 1 30-man inf platoon, along with 2 sentinels, and a standard Leman Russ and a Vanquisher. I played the hammer, and he was the anvil.

 

The guard player had a similar setup to my partner. The difference in our team list was that our SM opponent ran footsloggers (3 tacs, 1 dev, & libby) and a dread.

 

Point for point the guard players were about equal in the punishment they could dish out, as the marines rushed forward to take each teams' objective (Spearhead, Capture and Control game). I got into my optimum kill-zone by turn 2, with one rhino wrecked, 6 tac marines, and 3 assault marines as casualties. Dread was wreaking havoc with the IG defending the enemy objective. By contrast, the footslogging enemy SM's never got into optimal kill range, and got chewed up pretty badly trying to bear down on my IG partner's heavily fortified ruin. He never got within 24" of said building, which housed our objective, and therefore hadn't even faced the majority of my partner's firepower (30-man Inf Platoon w/ 3x Heavy Bolter, CCS, and 3xMissile HWT). So if he had gotten any closer to our objective his casualties would've increased exponentially.

 

In the end the game was called, in our favor, by the end of turn 3 since time for the round had ran out, and we had accomplished both our objectives. Held our objective while contesting theirs (with no chance of them taking it back) and killed both enemy HQ's.

 

My point to this story is that the mech SM force was much more effective, survivable, and killy when compared to the footslogger army. Seeing as that was the difference between the lists, since both IG's were practically the same, and the terrain setup was symmetrical. To reference Warp Angel and Killhammer, our K1 was the same, my K2 was much higher, my D1 was higher, our D2 was the same, and S was slightly in my favor because my mobility allowed me to get stuck in and disrupt their plan quicker than he could do the same to us.

[Grey Mage]

@ Giga- 3ish rhino chassis and a landraider at what point value? 1500 or 1750?

 

At 1500 Ill have 2 MLs and 2LCs from a Longfang squad, wich will probly damage 2 rhinos. Do you tend to take extra armor?

 

Ill also have a Predator annihilator- Im willing to bet itll pop one of the transports.

 

And up until recently my MM attack bikes would have been in range to hit something. Now a days that option is denied my wolves, so its probly the Dreadnaught with assault cannon on a rhino, with some of the above lascannons hoping to hurt your landraider *wich admittedly causes problems tell you close with my squad based meltaguns*.

 

At 1750, Id have a Landraider crusader with multimelta and probly square off with that and two LF squads instead of the predator... And a AC Dreadnaught. I think at that point though youd have a fourth rhino chassis to match though, eh?

 

It gets worse against tau, or IG- 5 light tanks and a raider should be getting damaged continually.

 

And sure... you can always jump out and move. But if you do so youve now sacrificed points to put those tanks on the board you could have used another another squad or two *depending on exactly what you run and how*. And provided me the oppurtunity to get more KPs.

 

@Muctar:Did your opponents marines just sit there or something? That sounds inane.