Footslogging armies to beat the meta-game

[Giga]

Nah, I don't take extra armor on rhinos. I do take it on land raider, though.

 

And TBH, all the stuff you mentioned is probably the least scary of all the anti-tank I can think of. MM attack bikes are scary as all hell, yeah, but lascannons, missile launchers, and assault cannons? I'm going to have cover saves from all this stuff. I'll also be able to position my vehicles to deny LoS to some of them. And again, if you're shooting all that stuff at my rhinos, and not at my speeders, bikes, etc. then that's just fine with me.

 

Even the meltagun killing of the raider isn't a problem, because it means you have to get one of your gray hunter/blood claw squads within 6" of the raider, and hence put them in assault range of whatever is inside (assault terminators & vulkan/lysander/beefed up captain usually), so this is really you exchanging one of your squads for a transport of mine. Not such a bad deal in my opinion.

 

The point of transports really isn't to survive the whole game. Except in few rare cases, I always go with the idea that those rhinos/razorbacks and even that LR are most likely not going to live through the battle. They're designed that way (even the LR, with its huge size, is designed to be a fire magnet), and that's just fine, as long as they can protect me from the enemy for some turns and allow me to close in on him (or at least redeploy quickly).

 

Finally, even if you're really lucky with your shooting, and I'm really unlucky with my cover saves, and you end up destroying my transports before they fullfil their purpose, ask yourself: would I have been better off without them? That same fire you used in destroying them would've been used against my infantry. I'd prefer you shooting at my APCs any day.

[Muctar]

@Muctar:Did your opponents marines just sit there or something? That sounds inane.

No he didn't. He ran just under half his forces to meet all of mine (which were moving towards 80+% of the guard's), and the other larger half & dread was slogging through the huge area of cover in the middle of the table to get to my partner's position to contest our home objective. I was annihilating his forces which came to face me, since my assault squad and chappy got the charge off and tied up a combat & full tactical squad with attached librarian. The other half 'rushing' (I use that as a relative term) our objective was getting chewed up by heavy bolter fire and HWT's mortars & missiles. It would've gotten chewed up pretty good before even getting close to our objective, if it ever did.

 

I've tried the footslogging option before, when I was starting up and didn't have any rhino's, and was found wanting. I would be left with few little ability to accomplish my mission once I ever go to the objective, if I got there at all. Since going mech I've been able to perform much better. This story is a direct example of the difference a few rhinos and a DP can make when using similar lists.

[kaiserstole20]

....if you are just buying more tactical squads then I dont see the point.

 

Wan

 

I think this is right. More tactical squads just aren't the answer if you are going without transports. What kills the non-mechanized army is either the lack of mobility (duh!) and/or the lack of appropriate weapons. If you use the extra points to make yourself more mobile in other areas or add weaponry that complements your tactical squads you can still be effective against a lot of armies.

 

When I go non-mechanized most of the time I use assault marines, attack bikes, deep-strike terminators, dreadnoughts, and/or vindicators. There's usually enough moving parts to keep up a good overall level of army mobility.

[minigun762]

....if you are just buying more tactical squads then I dont see the point.

 

Wan

 

I think this is right. More tactical squads just aren't the answer if you are going without transports. What kills the non-mechanized army is either the lack of mobility (duh!) and/or the lack of appropriate weapons. If you use the extra points to make yourself more mobile in other areas or add weaponry that complements your tactical squads you can still be effective against a lot of armies.

 

When I go non-mechanized most of the time I use assault marines, attack bikes, deep-strike terminators, dreadnoughts, and/or vindicators. There's usually enough moving parts to keep up a good overall level of army mobility.

 

 

So idea here is that if you go footslogging, you shouldn't horde up. Instead get your mobility elsewhere and let your infantry walk up the battlefield in relative peace because your support elements have already engaged/destroyed the enemy.

[kaiserstole20]

So idea here is that if you go footslogging, you shouldn't horde up. Instead get your mobility elsewhere and let your infantry walk up the battlefield in relative peace because your support elements have already engaged/destroyed the enemy.

 

Yep, that's it. It's not a fool-proof plan, especially when there are objectives scattered far and wide. The second big problem I usually have is that when I go this route I minimize my troop choices which can be dangerous. Still, it can be fun and effective depending on your opponent and their play style.

[minigun762]

You know I might try posting an army list using this idea and see how it stands up.

 

For Loyalists, I'm thinking that 2 Tactical squads walking in front of 1-2 Scout squad (to provide them a cover save) as the core of the army. Supported by a variety of Speeders, Attack Bikes, Gun Dreads and Predators.

[kaiserstole20]

You know I might try posting an army list using this idea and see how it stands up.

 

For Loyalists, I'm thinking that 2 Tactical squads walking in front of 1-2 Scout squad (to provide them a cover save) as the core of the army. Supported by a variety of Speeders, Attack Bikes, Gun Dreads and Predators.

 

One thing I have proxied but not purchased is a techmarine and 4 servitors to walk behind and repair my vindicators/dreads and keep the force moving. It seemed to work pretty well the time I tried it.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Why not buy Rhinos for the slogging squads and just use them to block LOS and charges?

 

Say 30 man ork mobz could buy trukks. What ork player wouldn't take a line of trukks to save one turn of shooting at the boyz?

 

A 35 pt los and charge blocker sounds good to me...

[deepstrike]

Placement of objectives becomes very important when you go footslooging. You have to be able to capture and control with your foot sloggers while contesting the others with some type of mobile units like deepstiking termies, drop sternguard, drop dreads. If you are scattering objectives all over the board instead of packing them as close to eachother as you can then you will struggle against faster armies. Kps is even better for a foot slogger as you have to kill whole squads instead of light transports. If you are trying to run across the board on foot to assault or rapidfire then you need to reevaluate your whole army tactics mindset. If you want to get in to a close range firefight then mount up. The points you are saving should go into longer range guns. A shift toward 48 inch heavies and plasma guns instead of meltas to eliminate mech troops carriers would be imho vital. As a berzerker heavy Chaos I have no real choice but mount up in rhinos.

[minigun762]

Why not buy Rhinos for the slogging squads and just use them to block LOS and charges?

 

Say 30 man ork mobz could buy trukks. What ork player wouldn't take a line of trukks to save one turn of shooting at the boyz?

 

A 35 pt los and charge blocker sounds good to me...

 

Because those points can be used to buy other stuff and its an easy killpoint.

I see where you're coming from and I know I'm kinda playing Devil's advocate here ;) but I'm toying with the idea that you can afford some more toys if you aren't mechanized.

 

A shift toward 48 inch heavies and plasma guns instead of meltas to eliminate mech troops carriers would be imho vital. As a berzerker heavy Chaos I have no real choice but mount up in rhinos.

Yeah I could actually see dual Plasma PlagueMarines surviving fairly well as footsloggers. You have the added range of the Plasmaguns for shooting and you're durable enough not to worry about any of the small arms fire that is going to come your way.

Support them with some Obliterators walking behind for busting transports and I think you could weather most any storm as you are moving up the board.

[Warp Angel]

I'll tell you why even Plague Marines can't march up the table safely.

 

Vindicators

Defilers

Leman Russ

Medusas

Manticores

Basalisks

Fire Prisms

Plasma Cannons

Orbital Bombardment

Banewolf

 

And of course, leaving your home objectives/defenders and firebases behind and relatively unsupported to advance across the table has its issues. They're vulnerable to lots of things.

 

Scout Move/Outflank

Landspeeders

Wave Serpents and their troops

Devilfish and their troops

Termicide

Drop pods after turn 1

Jump Infantry

Valkyrie/Vendettas

 

 

And there's a few reasons why they'll never manage to make it even if they don't actually die getting there too.

 

Dropped Ironclad engaging in hand to hand

Large boyz mobs

Sacrificial squads

Walls of enemy transports/land raiders

 

To Minigun's point, there are things that a large, primarily footslogging Marine force does well. There are things that absolutely wreck it, and it seems like there's more every codex.

[happybounce]

I dunno, I think it depends on the army. I mean it's my opinion that Marines should be in rhinos or drop pods because that's what we do, and I run rhino-rush all day long, but I think footslogging could work if you wanted it to.

 

A primarily scout army, based around the idea of a scout expedition force, would work fairly well. Using Shrike would give an army fleet, which would really kick ass if you ran a lot of scouts and assault squads, and the tactical squads would benefit as well.

 

Or what about Khan? He gives everyone the ability to outflank; a whole army of footslogging tactical marines coming on from the board edges seems pretty good to me.

 

Like I said I wouldn't run it, but I think it could be done and it would work just fine.

[deepstrike]

with a footslogging force you should be relying on firepower for your troops and use fast moving elites and fast attack to take the fight to the enemy. If you are running across the battlefield to engage then you should buy transports. Footsloggers should not IMO, be primary assault troops. By taking footsloggers you are putting your army in an inherently defensive posture. In so doing you need to work on your mutually supporting defense in depth, and target priority. Since you are infantry you have to exercise spacing discipline or get wiped off the board by blasts. You have to keep together or get picked off piecemeal. If 5th edition was all about killing the enemy then gunline would work better, but with objectives you have to be able to contest.

[Giga]

Or what about Khan? He gives everyone the ability to outflank; a whole army of footslogging tactical marines coming on from the board edges seems pretty good to me.

They're still slow as all hell. In fact, they'll be even slower, because they'll be arriving by turn 2, 3, 4 etc, and when they arrive they won't be able to use their heavy weapon.

 

 

 

Seriously though, I don't see what's the fixation on not taking transport. It's only 35 points, and yet it gives you so much utility and keeps your troops safe from the stuff Warp Angel listed some two posts above.

[FabulousRex]

I think being on foot for Loyalists isn't about getting in to Bolter range like it is with Mech lists, it would have to be about maximizing range and becoming a Gunline SAFH. This is inherently difficult for Loyalists (and Chaos for that matter) to accomplish. However, it is not impossible.

 

I think a good Foot-only list would have Scouts for troops, all combat-squaded. Melee 1/2 goes with the SGT, who packs meltabombs, and they try and get forward to disrupt the opponent and be sacrificial speed bumps. Sniper 1/2 of the squad stays back and supports the gunline mostly by providing cover saves if needed, and taking potshots of opportunity. With no Missle Launcher and only M.Bombs on the SGT, a Scout squad comes in 100pts less than a Mech TacSqd packing some decent weaponry. 2-4 such squads replace the Tacs entirely, as they are not in their element in a Gunline foot army.

 

I think using Pedro and taking 2-3 LasStern squads is a good follow-up to this, as it's one of the few long-range MinMax options left to Loyalists. This is distasteful to say the least, but they provide the long-range AT needed to knock out transports reliably. Pedro himself can lay down the Orbital Strike in support.

 

This provides the core of the list. Pedro, 3 Scout Sqds, and 2 LasStern squads taking up only 920pts. A good add-on to this would be a TermySqd to walk with Pedro in the mid-field, providing a CML heavy weapon and counter-assault deterrent. At this point, you need some horde-thinning power, and Thunderfires fit the bill beautifully. In a Gunline army with ablative Scouts, Infantry Target saturation helps keep the TFs alive and shooting. 2 should do, leaving you with a free Heavy choice. Spare points go into Fast Attack, probably MMAB squads, as they are the awesomeness no matter what army you have.

 

So try this 1500pt list on for size:

 

Pedro

5 Terms w/CML

2x5 LasStern

3x10 Scouts

3x1 MMAB

2 Thunderfire Cannons

[minigun762]

Seriously though, I don't see what's the fixation on not taking transport. It's only 35 points, and yet it gives you so much utility and keeps your troops safe from the stuff Warp Angel listed some two posts above.

 

I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't say I have a fixation. :P

I'm stepping back and asking myself the question "if everyone builds their armies to handle the mechanized meta-game, would playing a non mech army give me an advantage?"

 

So far, in the case of most Marines, the answer is no, its not worth it and this is mostly because 1) our transports are dirt cheap and very useful and 2) Marines excel at mid-short range and you need a reliable way to get into that distance.

 

But I think its very much worth asking ourselves these kind of questions, if for no other reason then to get outside the current "cookie cutter" army building mindsets.

[happybounce]

Seriously though, I don't see what's the fixation on not taking transport. It's only 35 points, and yet it gives you so much utility and keeps your troops safe from the stuff Warp Angel listed some two posts above.

 

I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't say I have a fixation. :D

I'm stepping back and asking myself the question "if everyone builds their armies to handle the mechanized meta-game, would playing a non mech army give me an advantage?"

 

So far, in the case of most Marines, the answer is no, its not worth it and this is mostly because 1) our transports are dirt cheap and very useful and 2) Marines excel at mid-short range and you need a reliable way to get into that distance.

 

But I think its very much worth asking ourselves these kind of questions, if for no other reason then to get outside the current "cookie cutter" army building mindsets.

 

I agree, dude. I personally run almost exclusively rhino rush lists; the one thing that is constant in all my army lists is 3-4 tac squads in rhinos. However, that doesn't preclude me from at least thinking outside the box.

 

And for the record, I think that a footslogging marine army COULD be very good, if done correctly. A 2000 point army running 5 decked out scout close combat squads, Shrike, a couple of Assault Squads, and a deepstriking Terminator Assault squad (just for good measure) would be very good, in my opinion. An army full of Scouts that can infiltrate, then make a scout move, and all have fleeet? Yeah, that seems pretty good to me.

[deepstrike]

You can have a whole battle company of codex marines at 2000. 101 marines with 14 missile launcher, heavy bolters or multimeltas plus the 6 flamers and lots of bolters.

 

captain (or librarian) with combi weapon

 

6 10 man tactical squads with free weapons

 

2 10 man assault squads with power weapons

 

2 10 man devastator squads with 4 heavies a piece

 

the ultimate in foot slogging.

[deepstrike]

Or how bout this one

 

Librarian with gate and dome

 

2 10 man tactical squads with missile and flamer

1 10 man tactical squads with plasmagun and missile

2 10 man tactical squads with heavy bolter and melta gun

1 10 man tactical squad with multi melta and flamer

 

1 10 man assault squads with power weapon and melta bomb

2 x2 multimelta attack bikes

 

3 5 man devastator squads with 4 missile launchers each

 

the ultimate in foot slogging. Lots of combat squading plus some deepstriking from gate. still 90 models on the board

[Giga]

@ deepstrike

 

The thing with these armies, they're big and all, but them being footslogging means it's rather easy to focus firepower on particular elements of the army. Since they're also slow, it's hard for the squads to support one another with things like assault. Also, apart from the attack bikes (which are rather easy to kill, since it's only two of them, so they'll be getting most of the anti-tank attention) you don't have any mobile anti-tank elements (which means the opponent gets to have a cover save most of the time.

 

For example, against a list like that, I'd simply pick a squad or two I want destroyed (say, tactical squad or two guarding an objective in the middle that I want to contest), keep my LR with terminators and vulkan inside some 15-16" inches from them (to avoid melta range of the multimelta), and then in next turn go in, unload the terminators and vulkan, charge one tac squad with vulkan and another with terminators (after shooting them a bit with my own tac squads, and I'll be able to do this easily because my mechanized tacs have an effective rapid fire range of ~26", hence being safe from your rapid fire), and basically decimate/lock down two of your tac squads in a single turn. If you had powerfists in those squads, then I'd shoot everything into one squad, while assaulting the other with vulkan+terminators together (which pretty much equals a wiped-out squad in a single assault phase).

 

In the same objectives game, your other tacs might be further away, preventing you from retaliating effectively, or even moving to reinforce the said objective.

 

Combat squadding doesn't help here, either, as you'd pretty much crowd the table with combat squads (90 models are prone to overcrowd any table), allowing multiple-assaults and making it easy to render your combat squads ineffective with single rapid firing rounds. Combat squads are also easily killed with anti-tank stuff. A 3 mm attack bike squad gets off 6 TL bolter rounds + 3 melta rounds, which equals 3 unsavable wounds and 3-4 bolter wounds. More then enough to cripple/wipe out a 5 men squad.

[deepstrike]

Yeah I forgot that my guys will all be in the open and exposed scattered across the board never close enough to each other to give mutually supporting fire and never hit kill anything with upwards of 15 missile launchers and another possible 5 to 7 multimeltas. with turbo boosting attack bikes and gating melta squad dropping in on your landraider. There wont be anything easy about breaking that much marine meat. :(.

 

But seriously the army list is for the most part slow and unwieldy so the army has to be used with care and a cool head to identify and target the true threats. It will also probably be not that much fun to use tactically speaking. Its just a gunline list after all. So if gun lines your thing then you could punish the unready metagamers looking for small elite mech armies across the table.

[Giga]

The thing is, with 90 guys on the board, they will basically be in the open and scattered around and you can't really avoid that. You don't have an option with it, since the tables just aren't big enough to comfortably spread & maneuver all those models. You invariably end up with your models being vulnerable to pieplates and multiple assaults.

 

You just can't keep all 90 models in area terrain (at least not if you use the standard 25% terrain), so lots of them WILL be in the open. In certain deployments your entire army will be bunched up from the start (think table quarters and pitched battle), in others your army will be bunched up even more (dawn of war), and some opponents will be able to assault you first turn with you not being able to do much about it. Think a flyrant + a bunch of hormagants/infiltrating genestealers, or nob bikers, in dawn of war deployment, where they will be setting up at the middle of the table.

 

Not to mention the lack of mobility prevents you from getting anything better then a draw in the two objectives mission. All an opponent has to do is put his objective in the corner of his deployment zone, and that basically means your footslogging army can't reach it.

 

As for two attack bikes and a gating melta squad as anti-tank... Hardly too scary, tbh. One melta shot has, what, 21% chance to blow up most vehicles if its in melta range? Suppose you miss, or the opponent has smoke popped and passes the cover save? Or the gate scatters out of melta range? And hell, even if you blast that LR, what then? You get assaulted by whatever was inside, so you basically exchange your HQ + a tac squad for a LR. Not worth it, IMHO.

 

And there are a total of 10 missile launchers and 4 multimeltas in your list. Hardly scary, considering all but 2 of those heavy weapons are static.

 

 

 

Ofc, all I'm telling you right now is my own opinion. If you find such lists fun and you think it'll work, then by all means, you should use it. I know I'd never use it, mainly because the movement phase with horde armies is just one big fat bore. That's why I don't play orks. :(

[deepstrike]

Actually its 15 missile launchers and 5 multi melts plus a couple heavy bolters in what I posted but thats a moot point. I myself prefer Chaos space marine mech assault force so gun lines are definitely not my thing. Since this thread is about a footslogging army to try to take advantage of the meta game then think about how it could surprise people instead of how you would beat it.

 

What would this do against an imperial guard mech force with vendettas, hydras, medusas and chimeras full of melta vets. maybe do well maybe not. missiles would eat the chimera chassis up.

 

It would definitely suffer under an imperial guard tank line with devil dogs and regular leman russ and/or colossus.

 

What would happen against ork battlewagon force with a small squad of nob bikers. I would say it gets run over.

 

Eldar mechanized would have a field day with it.

 

Dark eldar would most likely shred it.

 

mech sisters would punish it horribly

 

Tyranids, well nidzilla would gut it as would a hormgaunt outflanking genestealer combo swarm

 

It would have some protection from lash but defilers and oblits would still tear it up. Wouldnt thousand sons love this match up? I would very much like to slam my berzerkers into a marine gun line.

[waaanial00]

I think it mainly boils down to a few questions:

 

Am I using the points saved to over come the drop in efficiency for my Tactical and other units which are transport mounted (Dreads, Terminators)?

 

Does my enemy have to build in tactics specific to dealing with Mech? If so are these tactics able to translate well to killing footslogging marines?

 

I can see the first question being quite important if you have already decided to go footslogging however the second question is fairly broad and can be answered easily.

 

Marines are more susceptable to anti Mech tactics than most because of their expense and their decent armour save. High strength weapons useful for cracking transports are usually equipped with a low AP value, we all see this. This means that by playing the meta game and plugging an army full of anti tank guns an enemy is equally tooled up to taking down our regular units. Throw in the cost per unit and it makes every marines that falls a costly lesson in the value of low AP.

 

I dont see many anti tank weapons being fairly wasted against marines. Even weapons with AP4 and more are still able to wound marines effectively and then its all about 1 in 3 dead (statistically speaking).

 

Can a marine army do enough with the 35 points per unit to overcome this? Im not too sure. The fact that you know a force is likely to come at you fast in 5th Ed goes some way to help even the odds however if you are not Rhino mounted and your opponent is a long range fire army (Eldar!!!) then I dont see many things you can do in order to over come the loss in efficiency of your regular units.

 

Wan

[deepstrike]

After thinking about it, crunching the lists and playing out some situations I dont feel going heavily footslog on marines ads any significant advantage to marine abilities. In some situations you might derive some local advantage, but for the most part your opponent can project your future moves and put you into disadvantageous situations far to easily. You make your opponents job very easy.

 

As a side note army lists that do not usually do well will become better against a heavily foot slogging marine army. Ork foot horde, imperial guard using regular infantry and heavy weapon squads, any daemon hunters army list, Eldar foot. Basically other foot sloggers which have trouble with heavy armor.

 

Use at your own risk.