Logan Versus Marneus Calgar

[rcm2216]

I have heard a lot of people say that old part cyborg Calgar can whip up on Logan of the Space Wolves............ I say no way according to looking at the wargear and weapon options....... They are looking at the surface of things and not the details.

 

 

Almost equal stat lines with the exception of Logan has one more attack, plus a bonus for two close combat weapons, given him a standard six attacks every turn of normal combat, plus a S5 option on those attacks at initiative or five S8 attacks at initiative 1. Logan always hits on 3 in close combat with woothtooth necklace plus has preferred enemy available, hence he is able to re-roll misses.

 

Marneus has one extra wound at 4, four S4 attacks or five S8 attacks at initiative 1. He will hit Logan on 4 in close combat, but be able to re-roll to wound rolls.

 

Both have 2+ and 4++ saves to deflect damage.

 

I have redone the math several times and Logan when he uses the frost blade options wins everytime because he gets two rounds of combat to finish off Marneus before he gets a second time to attack mostly according to averages.

 

Hence, Logan is still the bad boy who will continue to kick old cyborg Calgar butt.

[Beef]

logan does not get the bonus for a extra weapon as he does not have one.

 

Does logan have iternak warrior?(not sure) the thing that makes him immune to instant death, If he does than yes he can whup calgar.

[rcm2216]

logan does not get the bonus for a extra weapon as he does not have one.

 

Does logan have iternak warrior?(not sure) the thing that makes him immune to instant death, If he does than yes he can whup calgar.

 

Yes he does have eternal warrior, but you are correct on the storm bolter I assumed was a bolt pistol.

[DV8]

I have heard a lot of people say that old part cyborg Calgar can whip up on Logan of the Space Wolves............ I say no way according to looking at the wargear and weapon options....... They are looking at the surface of things and not the details.

 

 

Almost equal stat lines with the exception of Logan has one more attack, plus a bonus for two close combat weapons, given him a standard six attacks every turn of normal combat, plus a S5 option on those attacks at initiative or five S8 attacks at initiative 1. Logan always hits on 3 in close combat with woothtooth necklace plus has preferred enemy available, hence he is able to re-roll misses.

 

Marneus has one extra wound at 4, four S4 attacks or five S8 attacks at initiative 1. He will hit Logan on 4 in close combat, but be able to re-roll to wound rolls.

 

Both have 2+ and 4++ saves to deflect damage.

 

I have redone the math several times and Logan when he uses the frost blade options wins everytime because he gets two rounds of combat to finish off Marneus before he gets a second time to attack mostly according to averages.

 

Hence, Logan is still the bad boy who will continue to kick old cyborg Calgar butt.

 

It depends if you're arguing game performance versus fluff.

 

I won't argue the game performance, but by fluff, I believe Calgar (who is, actually, very Vader-esque..IIRC all his limbs are bionic) to be the greater tactician and planner, with Logan having the upper hand in martial prowess.

 

 

DV8

[dublindawg]

It depends if you're arguing game performance versus fluff.

 

I won't argue the game performance, but by fluff, I believe Calgar (who is, actually, very Vader-esque..IIRC all his limbs are bionic) to be the greater tactician and planner, with Logan having the upper hand in martial prowess.

 

 

DV8

 

Wait a second, the Ultramarines are led by the Dark Lord of the Sith? That explains a few things.

[DV8]

It depends if you're arguing game performance versus fluff.

 

I won't argue the game performance, but by fluff, I believe Calgar (who is, actually, very Vader-esque..IIRC all his limbs are bionic) to be the greater tactician and planner, with Logan having the upper hand in martial prowess.

 

 

DV8

 

Wait a second, the Ultramarines are led by the Dark Lord of the Sith? That explains a few things.

 

Haha I only mean insofar as physical damage, Marneus Calgar's limbs are all bionic (very much like Vader).

 

 

DV8

[Zemox]

Ethernal warrior, yes so say if they were to dish it out both with their I5 weapons.

 

Logan:

 

5attaks 3.3hits 4(rounded) after rerolls, then 2.7wounds and calgar fails 1.35saves.

 

Calgar:

 

4Attacks 2hits 1wound (1.5if he gets to reroll) and 0.5failed saves, (0.75)

 

so its basically going to take logan about 3assault phases to smack calgar, in this time he would have lost 2.25wounds.

 

 

Both using I1 Attacks:

 

Logan:

 

5attaks 3.3hits 4(rounded) after rerolls, 3.3wounds and 1.65failed saves.

 

Calgar:

 

5attacks 2.5hits and 2.4wounds 1.2failed saves

 

In this manner they are both going to die at the same time.

 

 

Calgar using I5 attacks logan I1:

 

Logan:

 

5attaks 3.3hits 4(rounded) after rerolls, 3.3wounds and 1.65failed saves.

 

Calgar:

 

4Attacks 2hits 1wound (1.5if he gets to reroll) and 0.5failed saves, (0.75)

 

Marneus dies after 3rounds again, logan takes 2.25wounds

 

 

Logan uses I5 Calgar I1

 

Logan:

 

5attaks 3.3hits 4(rounded) after rerolls, then 2.7wounds and calgar fails 1.35saves

 

Calgar:

 

5attacks 2.5hits and 2.4wounds 1.2failed saves

 

Logan wins but there is a chance he gets unlucky.

 

As we can see 3-1 to Logan but again every time logan has to take about 5saves so unless you are in to prove a point (or gets the charge ;D) or enjoys cinematic moments i would recomend charging logan in alone,

 

Even tough we all know he is going to win.

[clanfield]

id say logan is damn fine with tactics and stratergy as well just think he was in comand of all the astartes for 13th black crusade i mean no disrespect to calgar but he is a ultramarine he wont jump out of the box tacticly as much as logan

[White Hunter]

not to be anti-wolf here, but you guys are also forgetting the storm bolters that each one has, on the way in Grimnar fires at normal storm bolter profile, but calgar fires at

S4 AP2 which could be a big advantage, especially if calgar can get in more than one round of shooting before CC. I would math hammer if for you, but I suck at it. :)

[Beef]

Logan is older and more respected in the emperiam. And like Clanfield said he was in overall command during the 13th black crusade

[DV8]

Oh I just love fanboyism (no disrespect intended).

 

Keep in mind several things:

 

Adherence to Codex Astartes is by no means limiting to ones tactical ability. Just because Marneus happens to follow the Codex Astartes and Logan does not is no indication that either of them is tactically superior.

 

HOWEVER, that being said, consider who they are, and the forces they lead.

 

Logan Grimnar, Great Wolf and High King of the Wolves of Fenris, commands 12 Great Companies atop Asaheim. He is a Son of Russ, and as such, of great cunning and martial prowess. None would contest his charisma or his ability win people over, and no doubt has won the respect and admiration of those he has commanded.

 

Marneus Calgar, Master of the Ultramarines and Lord of Ultramar, commands not only the Companies of the Ultramarines (who, by the way, are or once were the largest of all the Legions). He commands from Macragge, and has control of an entire system of planets, each with their respective military forces (offensive and defensive) amongst other administrative needs. He is a Son of Roboute Guilleman, almost universally acknowledged as being one of the greatest tacticians amongst the Primarchs (surpassed probably only by Horus Lupercal and Sanguinuis), author of the Codex Astartes and the Primarch + Legion who held the Imperium together after the Heresy.

 

Both of them are great leaders in their own respects, but both of them inherit natural strengths from their primogenitors.

 

AND PS bottom line, this is my personal opinion and perspective. There is no piece of fluff canon or not, that says Logan or Marneus is superior. Claiming otherwise is just fallacious reasoning.

 

EDIT: Overall command of Imperial Forces against the 13th Black Crusade means very little, except that he had overall command.

 

Commissar Yarrick had overall Command in the Third War for Armageddon, even over the Adeptus Astartes. Does that mean he was any more tactically superior or maritally better than the Space Marines? No. He had extensive experience fighting the Orks - and against Ghazghkull in particular - in the Second War, as well as intimate knowledge of Armageddon itself, and the overall concensus was that Yarrick should lead.

 

Logan Grimnar has fought the forces of Chaos many times before (against Angron and his berserkers in the First War for Armageddon), and has encountered many a time the legions of Prospero. It is only natural that command would defer to him against Chaos.

 

Marneus Calgar and his Ultramarines have fought time and again against the Tyranid threat. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that should Logan and Marneus fight on the same field, against the Tyranids, that Logan would defer command to Marneus for his experience.

 

 

DV8

[clanfield]

id not confuse robutes tactical skill with russ though he fell behind there with only horus and the lion leading him,a valid point about logistics though that was always the ultra marines true skill

 

as to fan boi maybe, but i actualy like the ultra marines not as much as some but they got there own style personly i prefure the imperial fist more from the codex loving brothers

[DV8]

id not confuse robutes tactical skill with russ though he fell behind there with only horus and the lion leading him,a valid point about logistics though that was always the ultra marines true skill

 

as to fan boi maybe, but i actualy like the ultra marines not as much as some but they got there own style personly i prefure the imperial fist more from the codex loving brothers

 

You're mistaken in thinking either of the legions fell behind.

 

Keep in mind that Horus Lupercal was THE master tactician. He knew his brother Primarchs quite well, and knew which Legions would never turn, and which would. Those that could not be converted or destroyed, he waylaid, delayed, or misled from Terra. As Warmaster he was able to scatter the Legions (the Ultramarines were practically on the other side of the galaxy), and was able to put the Dark Angels and Space Wolves as far back as he possibly could so they were not an immediate threat.

 

There is more than luck or chance that Horus annihilated 3 Loyalist Legions at Istvaan.

 

There is more than luck or chance that Horus laid siege to Terra with the strength of 9 Legions, while the Emperor defended with only the strength of 3.

 

 

DV8

[clanfield]

ah no sorry i wasnt clear i didnt mean the legions ,i ment the victory tallies racked up by the primarchs im aware of the fact that ultramarines brought more world to compliance and that the said worlds were practicly up and running very fast

then and again victory dosnt mean tactical skill , i think horus was the master manipulator he knew how to handle the crusade well your so right

[Uthred Ragnarson]

 

Wait a second, the Ultramarines are led by the Dark Lord of the Sith? That explains a few things.

 

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (in Vaders voice)

 

lol

 

:)

[ChapniK]

Dont forget that calgar has to buy his TDA and also that he has a power sword plus his two fists.

 

From a fluff point i would have to Say Logan, he is so cool that he does not need a pimped out bolter like calgar he just needs a regular storm bolter. Also Logan does not need extreme fluff buff like calgar got to make him interesting (omg beat up an avatar). Logan is 750+ plus years he has been commending the space wolves for longer than papa smurf has been alive. Lastly the ultramarines did not win against the great devourer the imperial navy did, its sad that they almost get no credit for it.

[DV8]

From a fluff point i would have to Say Logan, he is so cool that he does not need a pimped out bolter like calgar he just needs a regular storm bolter. Also Logan does not need extreme fluff buff like calgar got to make him interesting (omg beat up an avatar).

 

Who says it's extreme? You have stories of Imperial heroes fighting valiantly in the face of overwhelming odds, and surviving. And it's these epic stories that add flavor to the Warhammer 40k universe.

 

Like Brother-Captain Aurelian leading the teleport-charge into the heart of Angron's horde, or Aurelian himself with only a handful of Grey knights charging Angron himself, with his host of a dozen Bloodthirsters.

 

Logan is 750+ plus years he has been commending the space wolves for longer than papa smurf has been alive. Lastly the ultramarines did not win against the great devourer the imperial navy did, its sad that they almost get no credit for it.

 

That's like saying Logan didn't win against the 13th Black Crusade, but that the forces of the Imperium did. And I did not say that the Ultramarines defeated the Great Devourer. Nobody can claim that. But time and time again the Ultramarines have been at the forefront in the fight against the Tyranids, most notably the Battle for Macragge (or was that all the Imperial Navy too?). Or the fact that the Ultramarines have a dedicated Veteran division called the "Tyrannic War Veterans"?

 

Point being, neither one or the other is infinitely or vastly superior to the other. They both have their strengths and experiences. I simply believe Logan's true strengths lie in combat, and his ability to inspire those around him, while Marneus' true strength is, as mentioned, logistics, and planning, and as a tactician.

 

EDIT: Keep in mind I am not saying Logan Grimnar is a tactical incompetent. By no means is he incapable. Simply that Marneus is better at it than him in that particular aspect. Others may disagree, and their opinion is no less valid. I simply think, by the facts, that is where the two of them stand.

 

 

DV8

[Gornall]

My version of the math:

 

Assuming no-charge or Logan getting the charge:

 

On the first round of combat I expect both to use their S8 attacks. Calgar gets 5 S8 attacks with 4+ to hit, 2+ (with reroll) to wound, and a 4+ save, giving a total of 1.22 wounds. Logan does 2.22 wounds with his 6 attacks (+1 attack with or receiving the charge). Adding the 2 SB shots on the charge provides an extra .138 wounds against Calgar.

 

On the second round, Calgar once again inflicts 1.22 wounds while Logan has the choice to go at I5 and deal 1.48 wounds (not enough to kill, even with the SB rounds) or I1 with 1.85 wounds, probablly killing Papa Smurf. Papa Smurf pops another 1.22 wounds in Logan before going belly up, having inflicted 2.44 wounds on Logan.

 

Papa Smurf getting the charge:

 

Calgar gets 6 attacks, dealing 1.45 wounds, which by itself is not enough to tip the scales in his favor. However, if he gets to shoot his AP2 SB off, then that adds .625 wounds to his total, which would allow him to finish off Logan at the same time at I1. All in all, not good times for Calgar

[whitewolfmxc]

every one forgets logan can use the living legend rule and +1 attack on that turn ?

[SamaNagol]

Living Legend

 

ALWAYS hits on 3s.

 

Preferred Enemy.

 

Your numbers don't take that into account.

[Ulrickthegrey]

Logan does have a wolftooth necklace, hits on 3+ no matter the opponents WS. Plus living legend giving him 6 attacks on one turn. Then he has counter attack, so if he passes his LD Test, that would give him 6 attacks if he did not use living legend...

 

6 Strength 5 attacks, hitting on 3+, with a reroll from Preferred enemy if he misses.

 

So...things look a little worse for Papa Smurf.

[Grey Mage]

not to be anti-wolf here, but you guys are also forgetting the storm bolters that each one has, on the way in Grimnar fires at normal storm bolter profile, but calgar fires at

S4 AP2 which could be a big advantage, especially if calgar can get in more than one round of shooting before CC. I would math hammer if for you, but I suck at it. :D

While the SBs are an interesting note, we sould also note in that case that for 35pts Calgar can take an Honorgaurd, while for 33pts Grimnar can take a WG in TDA with a PW and SB... and when you add in the cost for a chapter champion and a banner you can give all the WG WCs *assuming 2 10 man squads, 1 for each character here*.

 

And that enters a whole nother ball of wax- because really, when would you ever see just these two staring at each other accross a field?

[whitewolfmxc]

not to be anti-wolf here, but you guys are also forgetting the storm bolters that each one has, on the way in Grimnar fires at normal storm bolter profile, but calgar fires at

S4 AP2 which could be a big advantage, especially if calgar can get in more than one round of shooting before CC. I would math hammer if for you, but I suck at it. :turned:

While the SBs are an interesting note, we sould also note in that case that for 35pts Calgar can take an Honorgaurd, while for 33pts Grimnar can take a WG in TDA with a PW and SB... and when you add in the cost for a chapter champion and a banner you can give all the WG WCs *assuming 2 10 man squads, 1 for each character here*.

 

And that enters a whole nother ball of wax- because really, when would you ever see just these two staring at each other accross a field?

 

you just made my day mate XD

 

Logan: CALGAR ! come out and Fight !

CALGAR : Oh look what the wolf dragged in ?

Logan : WHY ! CALGAR ! Why did you say that ?

CALGAR: Well you dont write , you dont call , how am i suppose to catch your attention ?

 

LOGAN:....................i know you wear blue,,,,,,,,but i didnt thought your that kind of blue.......

CALGAR:..............

 

 

sorry had to make that wolverine reference XD

[Gornall]

Living Legend

 

ALWAYS hits on 3s.

 

Preferred Enemy.

 

Your numbers don't take that into account.

 

I took them all into account but Living Legend (I also have Counter-Attack in there). That changes Logan's frontload to 2.59 wounds at S8/I1 of Round 1. This means Calgar dies at I5 having inflicted somewhere between 1.97 wounds (PF attacks on Round 1 and PW for last gasp) and 2.85 (getting charge and SB shots).

[Iron Man I]

Heres how the fight would go...

Calgar "Where is he....he told me to stand right here on this X and wait for "my can of whoop @$$"

Ultramarine "I'm sure he'll be here my lord.....whats the whistling sound?"

Calgar "And why is it getting darker here?"

 

Logan in his drop pod "STAY ON TARGET STAY ON TARGET!!!!!"