Thunderwolf Mount Upgrade to Character

[rcm2216]

I know it says adds +1 T, S, and A to profile, not the usually plus to +1 to T, S, or A. The bike rules read, adds +1 to T but does not admend the original profile characteristic as it stays 4(5) for instant death purposes.

 

The Thunderwolf section makes no mention of counts as T4 (5) for pursposes of instant death. Hence, I assume it means that such rule does not apply indicating that the +1 to T means the character becomes a true T5 because of the Thunderwolf upgraded mount.

 

Does this also mean that the character because a possible S10 with a powerfist?

[avatar8481]

You're welcome to look at the dozens of other threads on this topic for an answer...which there isn't, and it'll have to be FaQed

[rcm2216]

You're welcome to look at the dozens of other threads on this topic for an answer...which there isn't, and it'll have to be FaQed

 

 

I looked through about three pages........... plus I have seen rash statements based on speculation before the codex came out. Thanks however for the insight and direction.

[dublindawg]

It is a true T5 and not the variation that bikes provide.

[avatar8481]

It is a true T5 and not the variation that bikes provide.

 

Or not.

[maznaz]

It is a true T5 and not the variation that bikes provide.

 

Or not.

 

There is a specific exception built in to the bike rules. There is no such exception for thunderwolves. What is there to question there? You are only guessing at intention, and not reading the rules as presented to you.

[rcm2216]

Why do GW leave us in trivia............ Like I said the bike rules state the intentions of keeping T4 in place for specific reasons, but the thunderwolf upgrade leaves room for interpretations from rule lawyers.

 

Some will say it is a true T5 and S10 based on how they read the thunderwolf mount rules and others will say not so based on the mount rules.

 

Why did GW just solve the problem by stating their intentions, unless another rules in the book covers it. By the way, is there rule that states that a character profile can be added to as to permanent admend in regards to effect in play, meaning a T4 becomes a true T5 in all cases and not T4 (5).

[JamesI]

Why do GW leave us in trivia............ Like I said the bike rules state the intentions of keeping T4 in place for specific reasons, but the thunderwolf upgrade leaves room for interpretations from rule lawyers.

 

Some will say it is a true T5 and S10 based on how they read the thunderwolf mount rules and others will say not so based on the mount rules.

 

Every precedent does not add true stats, so 4(5) would be by precedent. But the Wolf dex is different and the Thunder Wolf Cavalry true 5 strength/toughness is likely what is intended for the mounts too.

 

Sadly, the only example (that I can think of off the top of my head) that changes the stat entirely is in the demon codex and they're all immune to instant death anyway so its not useful in answering this question.

[rcm2216]

Why do GW leave us in trivia............ Like I said the bike rules state the intentions of keeping T4 in place for specific reasons, but the thunderwolf upgrade leaves room for interpretations from rule lawyers.

 

Some will say it is a true T5 and S10 based on how they read the thunderwolf mount rules and others will say not so based on the mount rules.

 

Every precedent does not add true stats, so 4(5) would be by precedent. But the Wolf dex is different and the Thunder Wolf Cavalry true 5 strength/toughness is likely what is intended for the mounts too.

 

Sadly, the only example (that I can think of off the top of my head) that changes the stat entirely is in the demon codex and they're all immune to instant death anyway so its not useful in answering this question.

 

 

The Necron dex concerning the Necron Lord as well...............when upgraded with Destroyer Body. The Destroyer Lord becomes T6 and not T5 (6).

[Logain the Ranger]

I would say that it is a upgrade to T5 unlike bikes where it is T4(5) and the reason why is stated in the book. I'll paraphrase here. (Getting off of pg. 62 of the wolf codex) A character with a Twolf mount gets +1 Strength, +1 Toughness, and +1 Attack added to his profile. The reason I have that I think this is true. Standard Twolves are T5.

[Bonham1963]

Check the Instant Death rule on page.26 of the BRB. Modifier is a modifier and isn't the base toughness.

[JamesI]

Why do GW leave us in trivia............ Like I said the bike rules state the intentions of keeping T4 in place for specific reasons, but the thunderwolf upgrade leaves room for interpretations from rule lawyers.

 

Some will say it is a true T5 and S10 based on how they read the thunderwolf mount rules and others will say not so based on the mount rules.

 

Every precedent does not add true stats, so 4(5) would be by precedent. But the Wolf dex is different and the Thunder Wolf Cavalry true 5 strength/toughness is likely what is intended for the mounts too.

 

Sadly, the only example (that I can think of off the top of my head) that changes the stat entirely is in the demon codex and they're all immune to instant death anyway so its not useful in answering this question.

 

 

The Necron dex concerning the Necron Lord as well...............when upgraded with Destroyer Body. The Destroyer Lord becomes T6 and not T5 (6).

Thanks, forgot about that one as no one plays Necron around me anymore.

 

The necron codex specifically states it overrides ID though.

 

ID rules on paeg 26 say that no toughness increase from wargear affect ID.

[Brother-Captain Sicarius]

Check the Instant Death rule on page.26 of the BRB. Modifier is a modifier and isn't the base toughness.

but at the same time bikes say that they dont give the T for ID purposes, icons in codex chaos marines say that they dont give the T for ID purposes and so it is for all places where it has any relevance, just like in all the aforementined places the profiles of units that are "born" with the item in question is marked T: X(Y)... all exept for the Twolf mount... see a pattern here :D

[JamesI]

Check the Instant Death rule on page.26 of the BRB. Modifier is a modifier and isn't the base toughness.

but at the same time bikes say that they dont give the T for ID purposes, icons in codex chaos marines say that they dont give the T for ID purposes and so it is for all places where it has any relevance, just like in all the aforementined places the profiles of units that are "born" with the item in question is marked T: X(Y)... all exept for the Twolf mount... see a pattern here :D

I see the pattern, but I quote page 26:

 

"Some models can gain improvements to their Toughness by using Wargear items such as bikes, chaos marks, etc. When it comes to instant death, such bonuses do not count."

 

The mount is wargear. Since it does not override this (the way the Necron destroyer body does), it still follows this rule (until changed in a FAQ)

[Silvtalon]

If you look at Canis Wolfborn on page 54.

 

Fangir

Fangir is a monstrous thunderwolf, a strong as a mastodon and tall at the sholder as an ice troll. CAnis has an improved profile as a result of riding fangir to battle. The characteristics bonuses are included to his profile above.

 

 

Page 62

Thunderwolf Mount

A character with a thunderwolf mount has the unit type of cavalry, adds +1str, +1 toughness, and +1 attack to his profile, and has rending special rule in close combat with any attack that does not use special close combat weapon.

 

 

First of all Canis Wolfborn is a thunderwolf rider himself. His mount improves the space marine basic profile as they are both now one model. It clearly states in Fangir's description. Now if this is true then the TWC's themselves also benefit from extra toughness just like Canis themselves. In addition the thunderwolf mount itself says the same thing "Adds to his profile".... In this case both Thunderwolf and Space marine are treated as a single model and benefit from one another as if it was one single creature.

 

THunderwolf Cavalry and Mount use ADDED...

Unlike the space marine biker uses a MODIFIED... Which is profile clearly states Toughness 4(5)

 

Ya just gotta read the wording carefully. An look for examples.

 

 

But again... this one I would suggest waiting for FAQ.

[JamesI]

But again... this one I would suggest waiting for FAQ.

This is an issue of RAI versus RAW. It seems to me that GW intends the Mount to provide stength 5 and toughness 5, not 4(5). But, unfortunetly, it was written poorly and leaves the opening for question. It would have been simple to put in a line that overrides the restriction on page 26. They didn't, but it will appear in a FAQ eventually.

[dublindawg]

But again... this one I would suggest waiting for FAQ.

This is an issue of RAI versus RAW. It seems to me that GW intends the Mount to provide stength 5 and toughness 5, not 4(5). But, unfortunetly, it was written poorly and leaves the opening for question. It would have been simple to put in a line that overrides the restriction on page 26. They didn't, but it will appear in a FAQ eventually.

 

I hate to say this but that is flawed, the base S & T for gh is 4, if you look on pg 90 of the dex, the S & T for a member of the TWC is 5. By your reasoning a WL or WGBL would be weaker than a gh when mounted on a TW.

[JamesI]

But again... this one I would suggest waiting for FAQ.

This is an issue of RAI versus RAW. It seems to me that GW intends the Mount to provide stength 5 and toughness 5, not 4(5). But, unfortunetly, it was written poorly and leaves the opening for question. It would have been simple to put in a line that overrides the restriction on page 26. They didn't, but it will appear in a FAQ eventually.

 

I hate to say this but that is flawed, the base S & T for gh is 4, if you look on pg 90 of the dex, the S & T for a member of the TWC is 5. By your reasoning a WL or WGBL would be weaker than a gh when mounted on a TW.

Yes, its illogical. 40k rules say that wargear does not improve your toughness for ID. Nothing in the mount removes that. 40k rules say if you double and add 1, the doubling is first (so TWC have Strenght 10 powerfists, characters on mounts have 9). GW will fix these. But, sadly, they did not catch the error in the codex. This is just something that GW should have spotted in playtesting.

 

I would never expect an opponent to limit themselves to 4(5) on a mount. But if I was running a tournament, and someone argued RAW against it, I would have to side with them. By RAW, its 4(5). By RAI its 5.

[rahl02]

But again... this one I would suggest waiting for FAQ.

This is an issue of RAI versus RAW. It seems to me that GW intends the Mount to provide stength 5 and toughness 5, not 4(5). But, unfortunetly, it was written poorly and leaves the opening for question. It would have been simple to put in a line that overrides the restriction on page 26. They didn't, but it will appear in a FAQ eventually.

 

I hate to say this but that is flawed, the base S & T for gh is 4, if you look on pg 90 of the dex, the S & T for a member of the TWC is 5. By your reasoning a WL or WGBL would be weaker than a gh when mounted on a TW.

Yes, its illogical. 40k rules say that wargear does not improve your toughness for ID. Nothing in the mount removes that. 40k rules say if you double and add 1, the doubling is first (so TWC have Strenght 10 powerfists, characters on mounts have 9). GW will fix these. But, sadly, they did not catch the error in the codex. This is just something that GW should have spotted in playtesting.

 

I would never expect an opponent to limit themselves to 4(5) on a mount. But if I was running a tournament, and someone argued RAW against it, I would have to side with them. By RAW, its 4(5). By RAI its 5.

 

I don't agree with this. Under Canis' profile his wolf is a piece of wargear, that's added to his profile. It's the same with the thunder wolf mounts that bonus is added to the models profile in the same fashion. It's clear that it acts the same fashion. There isn't much room for RAI, it's RAW. The mount adds a bonus to Str and Toughness, and makes the model immune to instant death of anything lower than 9.