Chapter Master Seydon

[Tyrannicide]

Now I've been one of the more supportive members of Dan Abnett's Brothers of the Snake. Had an absolute blast reading it and now I've begun re-reading it, yet again.

 

My post mainly entails the age of Seydon, current Chapter Master of the Iron Snakes Chapter. I suppose I hadn't caught this on the first read through, but there seems to be either a case of a glaring common-sense mistake, or the Iron Snakes are a relatively new(er) Chapter. Now the Iron Snakes struck me as being an older breed of Astartes, as their background and history seem to suggest that they've had quite a bit of time to establish themselves, their traditions and practices.

 

One of these examples is seen on page 112 in the hardback version.

 

Before Raphon, it had decorated the fist of Pheus, heroic in battle. Before Pheus, it had honoured the might of Berrios, mighty Ithakan. Before that, great Sartes had made it wet with Irdol blood. Before that, Dysse had carved his way to the sleep of champions with its electric majesty, ripping his way through the cruel hordes of the pirate eldar scum.

And before that, a line of heroes whose every name and every deed Priad knew, and who were with him every time he donned the claw. Right back to Damocles himself, great Damocles, greatest of the great, generations before, who had first raised the claw and given his name to the fighting team.

Now the above paragraph is referring to the lightning claw, the symbol of squad Damocles, worn by Priad. I'm getting off topic slightly, but this helps cement some evidence that the Iron Snakes have been cleansing the stars of the Imperium for quite some time, considering that more than six Space Marines have worn the claw into the battle, before Priad.

 

 

So back to my original point - Seydon, page 136 of the hardback again.

 

'I make it a point to see those Snakes who return after a long absence, especially those I am fond of. Damocles squad - now I've been fond of that ever since I told Damocles to form it.'

That is Seydon talking to Priad in the Chapter House, after Priad returns to the fortress monastery for the first time in ten years. Seydon mentions that he was the one that directly ordered the formation of the first incarnation of Damocles squad. That line right there, puts Seydon somewhere that is most likely past a half-thousand years old. Which is more likely a massive understatement, as it's probable that he is a couple thousand years old. Which I find it hard to believe. Now Abnett is either making a glaring fluff-mistake or just one of common sense. If it was his intention to make Seydon that old, then he'd rival the wisdom of Dante of the Blood Angels, who is said to be over two millennia old, if I recall correctly - something I don't think Abnett would do.

 

***

 

So my question is, was this a mistake of background knowledge/a brain fart/or possibly a case of bad-luck where the Iron Snakes squad leaders of Damocles have each only lived for a short period of time? I have considered the fact that Damocles may have been formed at a date much later than the rest of the Chapter's formation, but the way it's worded suggests that he was one of the first Iron Snakes to take to the fields of war, an ancient if he was still alive on the current 40k timeline.

 

 

Again, maybe the amount of elaboration on my part is a little unnecessary, but I'm bored and wanted to start discussion. :mellow:

[Brother Tyler]

Dante has only led the Blood Angels for 1,100 years. Or maybe that's how long he's been alive. Different accounts express his age in slightly different terms, so it's difficult to pinpoint. Regardless, he's led the Chapter for a long time and lived at least a little longer. Based on the latest material in Space Hulk, I'd guess that Dante succeeded Sangallo as Chapter Master of the Blood Angels after the disastrous events of 996.M40 (but that's just a guess :mellow: ).

 

As for Seydon and his age, it's difficult to pinpoint because we don't know how long Damocles has been around. Yes, we can trace it back through seven Sergeants, and it sounds like it has been around through at least a few more Sergeants, but that doesn't give us an actual period of time. It could be that some of the Sergeants didn't last that long. Even if they did survive a score of years, there's nothing to say that Seydon hasn't been around for a lengthy period of time. Logan Grimnar has served as Great Wolf of the Space Wolves for 700 years. So it's conceivable that Seydon may have been Chapter Master of the Iron Snakes through a few centuries at least.

 

And just because Seydon may have ordered the formation of Squad Damocles at some time in the past doesn't mean that he did so at the Chapter's Founding. The Chapter may have existed for many years before Damocles was even initiated into the Chapter. It's probably safe to put Squad Damocles' existence at two centuries or more, but difficult to pin an upper level.

 

I think you're getting worked up over too much conjecture and not enough of a real reason to be concerned.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Space Marines just keep gettin older if they don't get killed. Maybe he's one of the oldest around. Could be a few years younger than Dante or something.

 

Or squad Damocles might go through leaders every 5 years.

[vytzka]

Abnett is kinda... lax... with checking his facts.

[Balroth]

Some of the Sergeants could also have gotten promoted to the First Company - or been moved to another squad.

 

-B

[BrotherLoki]

The Iron Snakes don't really have a first company as such, in fact they do not seem to make use of company organisation at all. Task forces are created for specific undertakings on an ad-hoc basis from those squads which are available. An undertaking can range from a single warrior (such as Priad in the first story) to dozens of squads. Seydon's undertaking against the orks was described as the largest in living memory, at 25 squads. The 'notables' which are the prestigious squads of which Damocles is one seem to be based on merit and ability rather than experience - new aspirants can be inducted directly into a notable squad, rather than being promoted through long service.

 

I don't necessarily think that the implication is that Seydon is unfeasably old. Nothing suggests Damocles squad has been around for the whole chapter history. I would suspect that Damocles was a marine who did something exceptional at some point and was given his own squad as recognition. Say each sergeant commanded the squad for 50 years on average (some may have lasted 100 while others may have only lasted a couple), it only means that Seydon has been chapter master for a minimum of 300 years or so. That's not unreasonable at all, particularly as it seems that he doesn't take to the field personally very often, instead sending people like Petrok to command larger undertakings. Astartes pretty much don't die unless killed, so he could easily be very old.

[Candleshoes]

Being a known fact that the Iron Snakes are a second founding chapter, many of it's original brotherhood being taken from Ultramarines serving the Primarch himself at the time of the Heresy, the Iron Snakes have a very long history. Many of the initial squad leaders, the life blood of the chapter, formed the name (and heirloom item) basis for the current squads and their artefacts.

 

As all things, astartes and their equipment fall over time, in battle, or retired to the halls of honor. It would not be an odd occurance for the much more venerable squad names and heirlooms to be given up to the Chapter hall... especially over a 10,000 year period.

 

Seydon is eluded to be a very old Chapter Master... in Abnett's book itself, it is very clear that time itself is catching up for him. His life expectancy would easily fit the massive timeline given by Priad. Even if Damocles was first created 500 years earlier by Seydon (command taken of course by Damocles himself), enough time has passed to heap on its notable status through combat actions, as well as see the deaths of dozens of sqaud leaders (not to mention squad members).

 

Quite simply the answer is no. The story makes perfect sense, as does the time frame. Active combat astartes often don't have such long life-spans as people often give them credit for.

[Tyrannicide]

Being a known fact that the Iron Snakes are a second founding chapter

Where is this bit of information? I've never seen a founding number for the Iron Snakes before.

[The Emperor's Champion]

I've never seen a Founding Number for the Snakes either, but I don't really doubt it. 23 Primogenitors, and only like 1/2 of the are known. The Iron Snakes seem particularly ancient and Greek too....

[Leonaides]

And of the 1000-or-so Marine Chapters who arent first/second founding??? Not every chapter that GW writes about are 1st/2nd founding...

[The Emperor's Champion]

No, but most of the rest of them don't tend to give off a super ancient vibe either.

[Castlerook]

I've always thought the First and Second Foundings were sacrosanct, unless a Chapter was specifically said to be from one of those Foundings you left those 2 alone. Until the Iron Snakes are said to be either one of those Foundings (in a Codex), I would just say have them as 3rd Founding, it allows them to have the time to develop their own history and customs, but at the same time be somewhat influenced by their parent Chapter (in this case the Ultramarines).

 

As for the Chapter Master's age, well, the game is set in a universe where there is a dimension where the rules of time do not apply. When one man can enter the Warp believing it to be a journey lasting only a few hours, can re-enter real space only to find hundreds of years have passed by (Or in the case of one Ork, re-entered real space just before his future self was about to enter the Warp). A marine could be several centuries old, but how much of that time would be spent in real space?

 

(I haven't read any literature on the Iron Snakes so if they are said to be 1st or 2nd Founding, fair enough, I'm wrong)

[Gree]

My opinion on Seydon's age is that it is simply bad writing. Abnett contridicted himself. In a book like Brothers of the snake I am not suprised.

[Brother Tyler]

Where, exactly, is the contradiction?

 

He may have said some things that some readers, through their preconceived notions, are having difficulty reconciling. However, he could simply have presented accurate facts in a way that requires some deductive reasoning in order to come to a correct interpretation.

[Gree]

Or maybe he could have simply made a mistake. It happens. Dan Abnett, as great as he is, is not perfect.

[Brother Tyler]

That's possible, too, but the onus is on you to support your claim. He's innocent of any wrong-doing (mistakes) until proven guilty.

 

So again, you believe that he's contradicted himself. If you're going to make such a claim, please demonstrate where you see the contradiction(s).

[Gree]

Why am I required to prove my personal opinion? I never stated that it was a fact that completely trumped all other theories.

[Brother Tyler]

It comes down to common decency and constructiveness. It's fine to identify when someone makes a mistake, but respectful conduct demands that you provide support for your arguments. If you're just going to claim that someone made a mistake, but not take the time to justify your assertion, your claim won't be taken seriously by anyone. This will also have consequences on how you are viewed and the reputation you garner.

 

Too many people act as if the anonymity of the Internet and the manner in which it allows anyone to give their opinion justifies saying anything they want. Unfortunately, this is a misunderstanding that drives the actions of far too many people that participate in Internet communities. All this kind of activity does is drive up the noise ratio. Here at the B&C we promote constructive discussion in order to enhance our members' enjoyment of the hobby. Opinions and assertions without support don't contribute to those goals - they merely dilute the discussions.

 

I've merely challenged you to support your assertions. It could be that you are absolutely correct and you might persuade me or others. I'm by no means infallible, nor do I always catch mistakes made by others, so it's entirely possible that in my reading of the novel I missed contradictions and mistakes made by Mr. Abnett. You've formulated an opinion based on contradictions and mistakes you've perceived in the novel. If nothing else, by providing the supporting arguments for your opinion and assertions, you might help me and others to better understand the novel and the Chapter.

 

Is that so much to ask?

[Gree]

Yes it is, I never made an argument or assertion. I made my own personal opinion that extends to myself. You are under no obligations to follow it. I do not consider this thread to be major enough to warrent a detailed counter argument.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

If something's worth doing it's worth dying for.

 

If something's worth saying it's worth supporting.

 

If something's not worth supporting...

[Gree]

Then don't support my opinion, I don't really feel like taking the time to convince you. I think it was a mistake. That's me. You are perfectly entitled to disagree.

[Castlerook]

I think most people are going to disagree if you say someone is wrong and then don't back it up.

 

A man can say something, and back it up, he has made his point. A man who says something and does nothing to enforce his point has said nothing at all.

[Gree]

I honestly do not care if you believe me or not. It's no skin off my back. Unless you ask Abnett then that's the only way you'll know.

[Heru]

At Brother Tyler and everyone else: Darth Potato pointed out pretty well were the problem in the writing was, why does Gree have to re-write it to back up what he thinks is a contradiction?

 

There are really only four conclusions you can reach with this particular problem given the extracts that DP has posted.

 

1. Seydon is older than Dante. - Unlikely

 

2. Iron Snakes go through Generations really quickly (ignore the heroes and note the words "generations before"). - Unlikely

 

3. There were two Damocles. - Unlikely

 

4. Abnett made a mistake and contradicted himself.

[Candleshoes]

I don't see those as the only 4 options, nor do they really address the simplicity of the original poster's question.

 

Why do people keep bringing up Dante, or keep saying that Seydon being older than him is a point to anything? Seydon is very old yes, 400+ years old with safe assumption. This is more than enough time to have given foundation to Damocles sqaud, centuries before Priad. Squads cannot be created or retired during the life of a Chapter, and what Seydon says points to Damocles being a squad he himself saw rise when he became Chapter Master.

 

Go through generations quickly? Perspective (and Abnett) states that Priad went from induction into full phratry, to Sergeant of Damocles in less than 10 years. Comabt marines, even sergeants, tend to die in combat. If Damocles is and was the combat workhorse it is described as being, the reasoning behind the long list of past squad leaders is quite simple... they died in battle. Such is the life of an astartes, and such is the honor roll of Damocles from his founding under Seydon, to the current leadership under Priad.

 

2 Damocles founders? This has no reason being in the discusion and is completely irrelevant.

 

Where and what after going through this whole thread is the contradiction Abnett is supposed to have given? His Seydon - Damocles writing really does make perfect sense... what doesn't make sense is where some of you may get confused.