Chapter Master Seydon

[Gree]

Go through generations quickly? Perspective (and Abnett) states that Priad went from induction into full phratry, to Sergeant of Damocles in less than 10 years. Comabt marines, even sergeants, tend to die in combat. If Damocles is and was the combat workhorse it is described as being, the reasoning behind the long list of past squad leaders is quite simple... they died in battle. Such is the life of an astartes, and such is the honor roll of Damocles from his founding under Seydon, to the current leadership under Priad.

 

We have seen sergants survive for much longer in that. From what I got reading various books. (Horus Heresy, Space Wolves, Ultramarines) Sergants don't die every 10 years and space marines like that are not disposable cannon fodder. We have seen astartes serve much longer than that. Astartes are involved in battle, but they don't die so easily like that or so quickly. Especially when you consider exactly how powerful Abnett made his space marines. It seems like the only thing that can kill a marine in his books is another marine or being severely wounded and trapped in a rhino before being swarmed by cultists. Or vast overwheleming numbers. I note that in the ''average'' engagement presented by the books the astartes take practically no casualties.

 

It seems weird to read about 10 space marines killing hundreds (sometimes thousands) of enemies with no losses at all and then hear someone claim that they go through sergeants every 10 years.

 

But then again I would point out that I hate Brothers of the Snake, I consider it complete trash and Abnett's depiction of them as being very bad. But that is just my opinion.

[Candleshoes]

How many deaths did Damocles see in 10 years? The book tells us 6 Astartes deaths. Thats a lot, not to mention these deaths occured souly in 10 man operations ("average engagments" as you call them), not in large scale battles. This includes the two most veteran members of the squad. This is also the mainstay of how the readers percieve the Iron Snakes fight normally.

 

This is the truth that this book lays it out, which is all that matters. The need for the intervention of Astartes in-itself is an alarming concept. To elude that an enemy, warranting the need for Astartes to be present, would not be able to make a dent in their numbers, seems off... they are delt with as a primary threat for a reason.

[Gree]

How many deaths did Damocles see in 10 years? The book tells us 6 Astartes deaths. Thats a lot, not to mention these deaths occured souly in 10 man operations ("average engagments" as you call them), not in large scale battles. This includes the two most veteran members of the squad. This is also the mainstay of how the readers percieve the Iron Snakes fight normally.

 

Nope, three of them occered from fighting other Marines. Two occered when they where badly wounded by a extremely powerful summoned daemon and then swarmed by cultists. And the last died to a lucky shot to his unarmored face. None of those are typical foes or deaths. Normally on most missions marines will not face Chaos marines or daemons.

 

This is the truth that this book lays it out, which is all that matters. The need for the intervention of Astartes in-itself is an alarming concept. To elude that an enemy, warranting the need for Astartes to be present, would not be able to make a dent in their numbers, seems off... they are delt with as a primary threat for a reason.

 

10 Space Marines kill 2000 dark eldar without any losses. Yeah, that's a big dent right there. 50 Space marines with thousands and thousands of orks. No losses. Big dent yes.

[Heru]

Seydon is very old yes, 400+ years old with safe assumption.

Which would make him as old as or older than the oldest surviving Ultramarine (Chaplain Cassius). Very possible yes.

 

 

Go through generations quickly? Perspective (and Abnett) states that Priad went from induction into full phratry, to Sergeant of Damocles in less than 10 years. Comabt marines, even sergeants, tend to die in combat. If Damocles is and was the combat workhorse it is described as being, the reasoning behind the long list of past squad leaders is quite simple... they died in battle. Such is the life of an astartes, and such is the honor roll of Damocles from his founding under Seydon, to the current leadership under Priad.

They aren't just squad leaders that are being noted in that text, those are heroes. You don't become a hero in a 10 year stint. Plus Heroes on average are very difficult to kill (especially as Marines). Also you miss the fact that it wasn't just those five names (minus Damocles), it was a long line of Heroes, of which Damocles was the first. This adds significantly more time to the equation, but as we don't know how many there were we can't calculate an average.

 

 

2 Damocles founders? This has no reason being in the discusion and is completely irrelevant.

Not irrelevant. I said two Damocles not two founders.

 

1. The Hero from Generations before.

 

2. The guy of the same name who founded the squad under Seydon's instruction.

 

I also said I thought it unlikely.

 

 

In a related line (ie part of the discussion branch), Seydon is the 18th Chapter Master of the Iron Snakes correct?

 

So assuming their Chapter Masters survive on average 300 years after becoming Chapter Masters, there is very little chance that the Iron Snakes can be a 3rd Founding Chapter (5400 years old'ish).

 

 

Where and what after going through this whole thread is the contradiction Abnett is supposed to have given? His Seydon - Damocles writing really does make perfect sense... what doesn't make sense is where some of you may get confused.

This whole topic was made because of the confusion. Just because you can't connect with it doesn't make everyone elses opinions wrong. Authors are people too, they can make mistakes and they can lose track of the information they are portraying.

 

 

But then again I would point out that I hate Brothers of the Snake, I consider it complete trash and Abnett's depiction of them as being very bad. But that is just my opinion.

That doesn't help when you are trying to make a point Gree. It's a bias and it doesn't lend credence to your opinion.

[Tyrannicide]

In a related line (ie part of the discussion branch), Seydon is the 18th Chapter Master of the Iron Snakes correct?

Is he the 18th Chapter Master? I've never heard this before, could you cite your source?

 

If Seydon is, that's new to me and it provides a little more evidence to the argument of the 'projected' Iron Snakes Founding number.

[Heru]

In a related line (ie part of the discussion branch), Seydon is the 18th Chapter Master of the Iron Snakes correct?

Is he the 18th Chapter Master? I've never heard this before, could you cite your source?

 

If Seydon is, that's new to me and it provides a little more evidence to the argument of the 'projected' Iron Snakes Founding number.

Lexicanum article. Which is why I put a ?.

 

If Seydon is discussed anywhere other than the Novel, then I'd guess it would be in either The Sabbat Worlds Crusade (Background Book) or Tactica Imperialis.

[Phoebus]

Seydon could very well be ancient. He's certainly meant to exhude that aura: he's hidden in shadows, he "wipes cobwebs" from his armour (not literally, but it's clearly a jest aimed at his longevity), he's refered to with familiarity by Venerable Dreadnoughts, etc. Finally, he uses rebreather tanks, guys. :)

 

If that doesn't scream "ancient", what does?

 

That doesn't mean he dates back to the Second or Third Founding, or what have you. Damocles doesn't have to refer to some individual who lived millennia upon millennia ago. Fact of the matter is, the Iron Snakes could have, at some part of their history, simply done a "reset", culturally and tactically. For one reason or another, the Snakes shifted to a system that centered on the Tactical Squad. Seydon was there for that portion of the reset that introduced "Notable" Tactical Squads.

 

None of this means that Abnett failed to do his research or forced on us poor writing. The devil is in the details, and all too often I see people criticize BotS on account of failing to take in details. For instance, yes--the Iron Snakes led by Priad do take on thousands of Orks on two different occassions. One one, their foes have few missile weapons and only crude melee ones. One another, they attack their foe while he's asleep; as he awakens and organizes himself (this horde has quality weapons, champions, etc.), they are forced to retreat. They "win" by luring them into a valley rigged with explosives, and trigger landslides that destroy the foe.

 

Cheers,

P.

[Gree]

One one, their foes have few missile weapons and only crude melee ones.

 

That is a poor example, orks with melee weapons have shown to be able to hack through power armor before. In addition their is little excuse for not outflanking the Iron Snakes phalanx.

[Brother Tyler]

But the bottom line is that we don't know how old Seydon is. We can guess based on the hints given in the book that he is somewhat old. Beyond that, though, everything is pure speculation. He could be quite old, or he might be as old as some of us think. Due to the lack of empirical evidence, it all comes down to a guess.

[bighatdino]

I think the problem comes down to the fact that the book doesn't really clarify the entire hierarchy of the chapter - i.e. does anything exist ABOVE the notables? The way the book treats them is as if they are regular tactical squads, just ones that have maintained a reputation over a period of time. This brings into question the existence of a veteran level, such as terminator squads that the sergeants might have been seconded to after successfully proving themselves in their notable.

 

That has the potential to affect the length of a sergeant's command, as does the simple fact that they are almost constantly at war, and the notables are in prime place to receive the more difficult assignments.

 

They also, as noted upthread, don't conduct their assigments at company level like a codex chapter is likely to do. This reduces the support they receive, and makes them the SM equivalent to the SAS or Delta Force. In fact, the SAS, as they were when they formed during WWII, is probably the closest real military force you can equate them with, and the Snakes could easily have as severe a life-expectancy as the SAS had in WWII. This could easily explain a high attrition rate amongst Damocles.

 

It also wasn't mentioned, because they book wasn't about them, how many sergeants the other notables had gone through. They could generally have a ridiculously short mission life in the Snakes.

 

Oh, and Abnett did make it clear that Seydon was really, really old. Everyone treated him like their grandad, and for marines that's saying a lot ;)

[Aegnor]

I reckon 40 years that a Sgt would lead a squad would be a pretty generous average to assume - some would last much longer and quite possibly get promoted again, others might only last a few years or a few days if they're particularly unlucky. Bearing in mind a marine would normally probably have 20-50 years experience before being promoted to Sgt.

 

So let's assume there were 12 Sgts in Damocles history, for arguments sake. That would mean 480 years if the 40 year average was accurate for them. Let's also assume Seydon created the squad when he was newly installed as CM, maybe around 200 years old. That makes him around 680 years old, which is not ridiculous given Grimnar. Further to that, Priad's example shows they'll promote quickly if they think there's talent there, so Seydon could have conceivably become Chapter Master quite a bit younger than 200.

 

I did wonder when I read it the first time, especially when it was made clear how big Seydon was compared to the rest of the Marines, and given the occasional suggestion that Seydon may have founded the chapter (which were ambiguous and on re-reading more easily interpreted that he had been chapter master for a long time), I did wonder whether Abnett had decided to reveal one of the lost legions with Seydon as Primarch.

[Direach]

I found a reference to Seydon being the 18th Chapter Master of the Iron Snakes, but I can't source that info. If that's the case, and Damocles was one of the original squad leaders of the Chapter, then it seems more likely Seydon was making a self-deprecating joke about his own age than referring to historical events.

[Aegnor]

Why is there an assumption that Damocles was a founding member of the Iron Snakes. I can see some squads disappearing if they're wiped out, or the name being rested for a while, and new squads being created, throughout the history of the Chapter. Just because a squad is one of the Notables, they don't have to be particularly ancient or anything - it could well be a fluid thing, albeit one that reinforces itself as the more prestigious squads get their pick of the upcoming inductees.

[Direach]

I figured the best way to find out would be to ask Dan Abnett. So I did. How old is Chapter Master Seydon?

 

"I actually don't know for sure, but he might have been alive since the second founding. That would make him VERY old, but it's possible. Of course, he could have created Damocles more 'recently' and only be a few hundred years old. Maybe it will all be revealed in a future book." -DA

 

By the way, though he is unlikely to see this, I am very grateful to Dan for taking the time to answer my question. ;) And he did indirectly confirm that the Iron Snakes are Second Founding (I wasn't sure if this was established fact or not).

[NightrawenII]

Okey, some informations...

 

According to the Tactica Imperialis, written by Dan Abnett and Andy Hoare, the Iron Snakes Chapter "traces its origins back to the Second Founding". The "Great" Seydon is only mentioned in the sidebar, with the speculation that he hasn't been alive at the time of the battle (841.M41).

[Brother Tyler]

The "Great" Seydon is only mentioned in the sidebar, with the speculation that he hasn't been alive at the time of the battle (841.M41).

Not quite. What the sidebar says is:

The signature 'Ithaka' is presumed to represent the name of the Chapter Master, Iron Snakes. A study of other extant relics of Iron Snakes documentation confirms that the Chapter master traditionally styled himself in this way. It is presumed that the assurance's author was in fact 'Great' Seydon, the ancient and celebrated master of the Chapter, though knowledge of the Chapter itself is so scant it is impossible to prove this to be the work of Seydon. He may no longer have been alive at the time of the Naxos undertaking, and this may have been the hand of an unknown successor.

All this means is that Seydon is (was?) indeed "ancient" and that whether or not it was Seydon who led the Chapter at the time of the Naxos campaign is unknown. "Ancient" is quite relative and difficult to pin down, as this discussion demonstrates. Whether or not Seydon was alive at the time of the Naxos campaign is difficult to tell. Since the Naxos campaign took place in 811.M41 and Tactica Imperialis was written some time after 990.M41 (the last campaign in the book, Rophanon, took place in that year), it might be speculated that the identity of the Iron Snakes Chapter Master in 811.M41 was unknown. We know for a certainty that Seydon was Chapter Master prior to 811.M41, but whether or not he still lived at the time of Naxos is unknown.

 

It's a fine semantic line, but it really comes down to the framing of the question. Speculating that Seydon might be dead is somewhat different from stating that the identity of the Chapter Master that signed the document 'Ithaka' is unknown.

 

Unfortunately, my copy of Brothers of the Snake is hard to get to, so I can't look in there to see if there is some date that the events in the novel can be locked onto; and Lexicanum and the Black Library websites are less than helpful in pinning down the dates of the events in that novel.

 

I like Mr. Abnett's answer (per Direach's post above). That pretty much sums up the discussion: we don't know how old Seydon is.

[Heru]

I figured the best way to find out would be to ask Dan Abnett. So I did. How old is Chapter Master Seydon?

 

"I actually don't know for sure, but he might have been alive since the second founding. That would make him VERY old, but it's possible. Of course, he could have created Damocles more 'recently' and only be a few hundred years old. Maybe it will all be revealed in a future book." -DA

 

By the way, though he is unlikely to see this, I am very grateful to Dan for taking the time to answer my question. :) And he did indirectly confirm that the Iron Snakes are Second Founding (I wasn't sure if this was established fact or not).

And let it be written that the Iron Snakes became the new Soul Drinkers, despised for also shoehorning into the 2nd Founding and possibly having a member who is older than Dante!

 

:D

[PorridgeMeister]

I found a reference to Seydon being the 18th Chapter Master of the Iron Snakes, but I can't source that info.

 

It's in Brothers of the Snake. Seydon talks about the undertaking to Ganahedrak and says that of the eighteen previous Masters, he is the first to have "failed" so badly.

 

Original Post from thread'o'mancy:

I was re-reading "Brothers of the Snake" the other day and it struck me how old Seydon (the Iron Snakes Chapter Master) is. The Problem:

 

- Seydon tells Priad that he remembers when Damocles Squad was formed because he was Master then and asked Damocles himself to form the squad. Seydon would already have been at least 200 years old when he became Master, as that is the average age for most Masters to take command - think P. Kantor, M. Calgar, Azrael, L. Grimnar and others..

- Now remember Commander Dante (of the Blood Angels) has already been said by GW to be the oldest Chapter Master at around 1100 years old.

- When Priad gets Damocles' Claw after Raphon's death, it is revealed that said claw is "many generations old". If we're thinking "human generations", that's not very much. However, with "Astartes generations", this could be a serious issue when dating old Seydon.

- More Importantly, the reader is informed that it had been carried by a long line of previous Sergeants after Damocles. Around six of said Sergeants are named, so probably at least five more Sergeants on top of these + Damocles himself. These would be Veterans because Damocles is a Notable Squad.

> So that's the average age of a Veteran Sergeant x 12. A veteran Sergeant will be probably 50-125 years old so we have 12 x 50 to 12 x 125 => 600 to 1500

>> Add the 200 in: 600 to 1500 => 800 to 1700

 

Now this is the minimum age of Seydon as there could have probably been some V. Sergeants older than my estimates and indeed more Sergeants than that.

 

Maybe it will all be revealed in a future book."

Second book maybe? :unsure:

[Astartes Consul]

I'm inclined to think that is may simply be a case of poetic license.

 

The author wants to show how 'old and wise' Seydon is and at the same time give a bit of background about Damocles that the reader will pick up in passing. Damocles is an important squad, it's creation was authorised by the Chapter Master and he knew the founder personally, in fact I belive there are a number of other reference in the book to Seydon having a sort of Marine fan-crush on Damocles Squad (I may be mistaken, haven’t read it in a while). At the same time the whole thing makes Seydon appear like some sort of village elder type character as he recalls the founding of Damocles which, it is implied, was a while back at the very least.

 

Of course, if Seydon was a major character in the way Priad is maybe the author would have spotted this apparent irregularity and rewritten a few passages to explain it, but that might well have been a bit boring if the old man had, in the middle of his speech to Praid, started rattling of precise dates and times etc etc.

 

That’s just by two cents, this may be a case of discontinuity in the fiction, and if it is it is by no means the greatest sin committed by a Black Library author, but I'm inclined to think it's more likely an accident and in my own very humble opinion, isn't too much of an issue.

 

Please don't hate me :)

[Crimson Devil]

And let it be written that the Iron Snakes became the new Soul Drinkers, despised for also shoehorning into the 2nd Founding and possibly having a member who is older than Dante!

 

:)

 

Makes you wonder how the B&C's fluff Nazis would have railed against the changes in backstory between RT and 2nd if the B&C had existed then; Ultramarines, a third founding becoming a first founding chapter and Leman Russ being upgraded from an IG officer to Primarch.

 

There is no list that contains all of the 2nd Founding chapters, so if the Dan Abnet wants to make them 2nd he is entitled too. GW left it vague on purpose. Its not holy scripture. Hell, all 40k fluff is slightly better written fan fiction. If anything, its a work in progress.

[Brother Tyler]

I found a reference to Seydon being the 18th Chapter Master of the Iron Snakes, but I can't source that info.

 

It's in Brothers of the Snake. Seydon talks about the undertaking to Ganahedrak and says that of the eighteen previous Masters, he is the first to have "failed" so badly.

If that's a quote and there were eighteen previous masters, then Seydon is the 19th Chapter Master.

[Heru]

There is no list that contains all of the 2nd Founding chapters, so if the Dan Abnet wants to make them 2nd he is entitled too.

When an author has to resort to shoehorning a Chapter into a special Founding for "special points" it smacks of lazy writing. It's either 2nd Founding, "unknown" (as in X Chapter doesn't know it's Founding not 13th) or 21st "Cursed" Founding. There are 23 other Foundings and 90% of those have never used by BL authors or even the GW studio. The only real exception to that so far is Forge World, with an example being that quite a few of the Chapters from the Badab War are from those unused Foundings.

[Crimson Devil]

Just because you're sick of something doesn't invalidate it. I think your projecting on the "special points' nonsense.

[Direach]

My own experience (including my time spent with GW) has shown me that most of the time, the writers just don't exhaustively research this stuff to the extent many players do. They write what they think will be cool without quadruple-checking dates and such. I recommend that no one lose more sleep over it than the authors do (which is very little). <_<

[Leonaides]

The signature 'Ithaka' is presumed to represent the name of the Chapter Master, Iron Snakes. A study of other extant relics of Iron Snakes documentation confirms that the Chapter master traditionally styled himself in this way. It is presumed that the assurance's author was in fact 'Great' Seydon, the ancient and celebrated master of the Chapter, though knowledge of the Chapter itself is so scant it is impossible to prove this to be the work of Seydon. He may no longer have been alive at the time of the Naxos undertaking, and this may have been the hand of an unknown successor.

But surely 'Ithaka' could be the seal/signiature of every Chapter Master of the Iron Snakes? Would Calgar sign as 'Calgar' or would he sign as 'Macragge'... Or maybe 'Ultramar'.