Quillen Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Ok so I am Ragnar, and I have lead 10 WG into a wad of *********** and stomped it's butt. Now my ass is sorta kinda, but not really hanging in the breeze. After all I am Ragnar and just fragged like 4 peeps. So I am there and a horde of *********** charge me. But I have Counter Charge and make my roll so I charge back. But Wait I have Furocious Charge when I Charge and thanks to them charging me I now counter CHARGE!!!!! So do I get Forucious charge? So I strike the enemies of Man before they can charge me? Sorta see my Delima? Cause it seems like I would to my logic. But this is way powerful and makes Ragnar and his buddies a death machine. So has this been addressed somewhere and I just can't find it cause it's 2 Am and I am a zombie? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181087-ok-i-need-clarification-on-ragnar-and-his-abilities/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Im fairly certain this is the first time a model has had furious charge AND counter-attack as part of its base rules. And frankly, Im not sure. It says you get the +1 bonus to your attacks exactly as if you had attacked- so hell get his d3 attacks on the countercharge too. But furious charge? Im not sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181087-ok-i-need-clarification-on-ragnar-and-his-abilities/#findComment-2144256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Im fairly certain this is the first time a model has had furious charge AND counter-attack as part of its base rules. I'm not positive on this one, but first guess would be that Furious Charge would only apply when you actually launch the assault. It says you get the +1 bonus to your attacks exactly as if you had attacked- so hell get his d3 attacks on the countercharge too. Insane Bravado says that Ragnar and his unit get +d3 attacks when they "launch an assault" rather than the usual +1. Since they aren't launching an assault in a counterattack move, I would say they just get the usual +1 attack, and not the +d3. For the Blood Claws this is more explicitly stated that even they aren't fast enough to get their +2 attacks from Berserk Charge on a counterattack, and just get +1. I'd say that this is most likely the best way to interpret the language used for Ragnar, too. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181087-ok-i-need-clarification-on-ragnar-and-his-abilities/#findComment-2144275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 as the rules say you only get the +1 attack as if you had charged and make no mention of abilites granted when launching an assault i would agree with the above that counter attack does not grant furious charge or the D3 attacks... makes ragnar more managable and not quite so ridonculously harsh Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181087-ok-i-need-clarification-on-ragnar-and-his-abilities/#findComment-2144547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillen Posted October 9, 2009 Author Share Posted October 9, 2009 I have to aggree it would be broken. Still funny to see say a Squad of Korn Beserkers hit them and be like :P!?!?!?!?!?!? Lol way to funny. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181087-ok-i-need-clarification-on-ragnar-and-his-abilities/#findComment-2144928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewolfpriest Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 well counter attack rules says you get +1 bonus to attacks exactly as if THEY TOO HAD ASSAULT that turn. Guess what is totally broken but totally legal, adding benefits from insane bravado and war howl Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181087-ok-i-need-clarification-on-ragnar-and-his-abilities/#findComment-2144935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Mek Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Go to page 74 of the rule book. It says You take a leadership test and if successful you get a +1 attack 'exactly as if they too have assaulted that turn' but its clearly relating to the +1, it doesnt count as your unit charging, so no benefits for charging are appied to the unit charged, except, as theyve pointed out +1 attack Otherwise the rule would say when charge its as if the unit with Counter-attack charged aswell, but it doesnt, it just says it gets +1 attack AS IF it did. Sorry to ruin your plans :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181087-ok-i-need-clarification-on-ragnar-and-his-abilities/#findComment-2144940 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 We had a small debate about this at our club. We never could reach a fair compromise... I'd say, it's allowed. I don't have to give a reason. I'm a wolf :devil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181087-ok-i-need-clarification-on-ragnar-and-his-abilities/#findComment-2144966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Go to page 74 of the rule book.It says You take a leadership test and if successful you get a +1 attack 'exactly as if they too have assaulted that turn' but its clearly relating to the +1, it doesnt count as your unit charging, so no benefits for charging are appied to the unit charged, except, as theyve pointed out +1 attack Otherwise the rule would say when charge its as if the unit with Counter-attack charged aswell, but it doesnt, it just says it gets +1 attack AS IF it did. Sorry to ruin your plans :devil: Thats why Im dubious to Furious Charge... but his d3 attacks DOES get through. How do we know this? Because it replaces the +1 A from charging, just like bloodclaws beserk charge did in your previous codex. Bloodclaws now have a note saying they dont do this- ragnar does not. So I would say that Ragnar gets his +d3attacks, but doesnt get +1 I and S.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181087-ok-i-need-clarification-on-ragnar-and-his-abilities/#findComment-2144975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lokkan Of The Long Hall Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 The blood claws berserk Charge does say that it doesn't work on the charge because they're not that fast. Ragnar's insane bravado doesn't mention anything of the sort, whilst he has a 4+ invulnerable due to the speed of his reactions. Until a FAQ says otherwise I'd say it works, and goes a way to explaining why he's 60 points (iirc) dearer than a wolf lord with all the same wargear/saga. He is supposed to be a combat machine after all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181087-ok-i-need-clarification-on-ragnar-and-his-abilities/#findComment-2144982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokafort Stonewolf Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Ragnar's Insane Bravado DOES work when counter-charging. From what I can see, Furious Charge does not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181087-ok-i-need-clarification-on-ragnar-and-his-abilities/#findComment-2145119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexx Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 The blood claws berserk Charge does say that it doesn't work on the charge because they're not that fast. Ragnar's insane bravado doesn't mention anything of the sort, whilst he has a 4+ invulnerable due to the speed of his reactions. Until a FAQ says otherwise I'd say it works, and goes a way to explaining why he's 60 points (iirc) dearer than a wolf lord with all the same wargear/saga. He is supposed to be a combat machine after all. 35pts difference actually. Quite a fair bargain for his abilities. And counter attack is a USR, clearly explained . It's NOT a "the unit gets to charge" As always, if your friends/ flgs lets you get away with it, more power to you. But it's not the way the rules are written. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181087-ok-i-need-clarification-on-ragnar-and-his-abilities/#findComment-2145152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 No to both. FC is clearly worded to only be when the unit with the rule assault and Ragnars D3 attacks are only when he launches an assault... I would love for it to not be so, but it is... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181087-ok-i-need-clarification-on-ragnar-and-his-abilities/#findComment-2145170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rahl02 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Ragnar's insane bravado rules states it only works when he and his squad launch an assault. Same with furious charge. If someone trys to argue that expecially if I'm playing with Death Gaurd plague marines, I'd tell them since they get their attack bonus as if they had charged, I'd tell them that my blight granades work as well. Since they're charging back then the blight granades work when an enemy counts as charging they get no attack bonus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181087-ok-i-need-clarification-on-ragnar-and-his-abilities/#findComment-2145279 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 No to both.FC is clearly worded to only be when the unit with the rule assault and Ragnars D3 attacks are only when he launches an assault... I would love for it to not be so, but it is... Except, you know, for the whole wording of Counter-attack, wich means you get the bonus "exactly as if they to had assaulted". In Ragnars case thats d3 instead of +1. Remember we had this debate at the start of 5th edition, and thats how it worked for bloodclaws? And in fact, if it werent for a very precise statement in the BC section it would still be legal. They didnt say our interpretation was incorrect, they said they were now disallowing it. Ragnar gets +d3 attacks, but not furious charge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181087-ok-i-need-clarification-on-ragnar-and-his-abilities/#findComment-2145447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 No to both.FC is clearly worded to only be when the unit with the rule assault and Ragnars D3 attacks are only when he launches an assault... I would love for it to not be so, but it is... Except, you know, for the whole wording of Counter-attack, wich means you get the bonus "exactly as if they to had assaulted". GM, Although you are absolutely correct on the intepretation when you look at the wording of Counter-attack, I think this is over-ruled when you look at the wording for Insane Bravado itself, which is the actual special rule in question/under scrutiny. The language used in Insane Bravado says the +d3 attacks are gained when Ragnar (+ unit) launch an assault, which they aren't really doing in a Counter-attack, despite the language of "as if they too had assaulted" that is in the Counter-attack USR. However, out of all of the rules discussions that have gone on around here lately, this one is definitely deserving of a FAQ response. If it turns out that I am coming down on the wrong side on this one I certainly won't complain. After all, I actually run Ragnar's Great Company, and always include him, so your interpretation would be an advantage for me. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181087-ok-i-need-clarification-on-ragnar-and-his-abilities/#findComment-2145462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 No to both.FC is clearly worded to only be when the unit with the rule assault and Ragnars D3 attacks are only when he launches an assault... I would love for it to not be so, but it is... Except, you know, for the whole wording of Counter-attack, wich means you get the bonus "exactly as if they to had assaulted". GM, Although you are absolutely correct on the intepretation when you look at the wording of Counter-attack, I think this is over-ruled when you look at the wording for Insane Bravado itself, which is the actual special rule in question/under scrutiny. The language used in Insane Bravado says the +d3 attacks are gained when Ragnar (+ unit) launch an assault, which they aren't really doing in a Counter-attack, despite the language of "as if they too had assaulted" that is in the Counter-attack USR. However, out of all of the rules discussions that have gone on around here lately, this one is definitely deserving of a FAQ response. If it turns out that I am coming down on the wrong side on this one I certainly won't complain. After all, I actually run Ragnar's Great Company, and always include him, so your interpretation would be an advantage for me. V Agreed, I wouldnt mind a FAQ on this one to confirm it. I just have to say that based upon how the army played last month, with almost identical rules in this case *just +2 instead of +d3* why should it have changed? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181087-ok-i-need-clarification-on-ragnar-and-his-abilities/#findComment-2145470 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Agreed, I wouldnt mind a FAQ on this one to confirm it. I just have to say that based upon how the army played last month, with almost identical rules in this case *just +2 instead of +d3* why should it have changed? Because the wording is different. Ragnar's ability clearly states that it's when he launches an assault. Does he launch an assault in the opponennts turn? No, he countercharges which is different. I can see why some people would interpret this your way, but I believe that to be wrong. And I do hope it gets FAQed in your favour ;-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181087-ok-i-need-clarification-on-ragnar-and-his-abilities/#findComment-2145549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rahl02 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Agreed, I wouldnt mind a FAQ on this one to confirm it. I just have to say that based upon how the army played last month, with almost identical rules in this case *just +2 instead of +d3* why should it have changed? Because the wording is different. Ragnar's ability clearly states that it's when he launches an assault. Does he launch an assault in the opponennts turn? No, he countercharges which is different. I can see why some people would interpret this your way, but I believe that to be wrong. And I do hope it gets FAQed in your favour ;-) His rules CLEARLY states that it only works when Ragnar's ability ONLY when he's launching assault. The codex spells it out clearly. If you try anything differant your going to get slapped with the rulebook, not to mention your own codex. It's the same with furious charge, only when making the assault does it work. Stop trying to find any way to break the dex. We have enough things that need FAQ'd don't add another pointless question that can be easily answers by just reading. Oh and for the bolded part, it's not going to happen NO FAQ needed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181087-ok-i-need-clarification-on-ragnar-and-his-abilities/#findComment-2145682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 I'm going to say Ragnar gets neither Insane Bravado nor his Furious Charge (along with his squad), for the sole reason that the USR for Counter Attack specifically says "+1 Attack, as if they had just assaulted". If they had meant for it to just count as you "charging back" and thus launching your own charge, then they would have said "this unit counts as charging". But instead they +1 Attack, AS IF they had just assaulted. In my mind, that's a lesser, reactionary charge, and the rulebook specifically says you only get the +1 Attack bonus. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181087-ok-i-need-clarification-on-ragnar-and-his-abilities/#findComment-2145844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Agreed, I wouldnt mind a FAQ on this one to confirm it. I just have to say that based upon how the army played last month, with almost identical rules in this case *just +2 instead of +d3* why should it have changed? Because the wording is different. Ragnar's ability clearly states that it's when he launches an assault. Does he launch an assault in the opponennts turn? No, he countercharges which is different. I can see why some people would interpret this your way, but I believe that to be wrong. And I do hope it gets FAQed in your favour ;-) His rules CLEARLY states that it only works when Ragnar's ability ONLY when he's launching assault. The codex spells it out clearly. If you try anything differant your going to get slapped with the rulebook, not to mention your own codex. It's the same with furious charge, only when making the assault does it work. Stop trying to find any way to break the dex. We have enough things that need FAQ'd don't add another pointless question that can be easily answers by just reading. Oh and for the bolded part, it's not going to happen NO FAQ needed. I dont use Ragnar... this is just about consistency. Well see how it goes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181087-ok-i-need-clarification-on-ragnar-and-his-abilities/#findComment-2145892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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