SW Tactica against Odd Orks

[khaosthorpe]

I have been reading the forums for awhile now and I decided to throw my questions to the community. I currently play the SW(I used to play the SM), and my friend, who I play against mainly, plays the Orks.

I know there is a lot of Tactica out there to help against the Orks, but my friend seems to play them differently (so I am told). We always play a 2000pt game, with roughly 3-4 objectives.

 

My SW army has been(My new Army):

Logan or Nijal

10 Wolf Guard, w/Termi armor, w/Storm Sheild, w/ Storm Bolter

10 Wolf Guard, w/Termi armor, w/Storm Sheild, w/ Storm Bolter

10 Grey Hunters, w/Flamer, w/Melta

10 Grey Hunters, w/Flamer, w/Melta

5 Long Fangs, w/HB’s

5 Long Fangs, w/HB’s

Whirlwind

 

My SM Army(Old army):

Pedor

Chaplin(runs with Termis)

10 Tactical M, w/ Flamer, w/Missile L

10 Tactical M, w/ Flamer, w/Missile L

10 Sternguard

10 Assault Termi, w/ Lighting claws,

Iron Clad

WW

WW

Vindicator

 

He normally plays with 2 types of armies, (I might be off on the exact amount of each unit)

 

Army A

Ghazghkull Thraka

Normal Warboss

~10 MegaNobs w/ Painboy

~10 Nobs w/ Power claws, w/Painboy, w/Cybork Bodies

~10 Nobs w/Power Claw, w/ Painboy, w/Cybork Bodies

`~21 Boys, w/1Nob, w/Power claw

~20 Boys, w/1Nob, w/Power claw

~15 Lootas, w/ Deffguns

3 Big Guns

 

Army B

Normal Warboss

Normal Warboss

~10 Nobs w/ Power claws, w/Painboy, w/Cybork Bodies

~10 Nobs w/Power Claw, w/ Painboy, w/Cybork Bodies

`~21 Boys, w/1Nob, w/Power claw

~20 Boys, w/1Nob, w/Power claw

~20 Boys, w/1Nob, w/Power claw

~15 Lootas, w/ Deffguns

~6 Big Guns

 

Here are the problems I am having:

1. Even though they have a low BS, he is still always taking out my WW, and a few of my guys( and HQ) every turn with his Lootas and Big Guns.

2. I am finding it difficult to take out his Nobz when he has both Cybork bodies and Pain boy. Every time I get a few wounds, he rolls his Cybork save and if that doesn’t work he rolls his pain boy save. When I send my WG at him he will take out 1-2 a turn and I will take out none.

3. I know that big templates(WW) would take out his boys, but he will space them out exactly 2 inches apart, so if I am luck I may only kill 2-3 a turn.

4. Shooting at his army is still not doing anything. This goes back to the saves with his nobz and the Spacing issue.

5. The Warbosses are brutal when it comes to the amount of attacks.

6. I know that I will always be outnumbered, but would it be better to lose the high point cost HQ’s and go with more troops?

 

 

Any additional information would be greatly appreciated. :)

[Sharpsilver]

If I'm reading correctly, you've spent 960pts on those Terminators each with a Stormshield and Storm Bolter? That's quite an odd unit and expensive for poor killing power.

 

I would remove all the terminators and completely rebuild them as an entry to your army as something like this.

 

Logan Grimnar, The Great Wolf - 275pts

+

x 4 Terminator Wolfguard - 187pts

4 x Wolfclaw + Storm Bolter, Drop Pod.

 

x 5 Terminator Wolfguard - 255pts

Assault Cannon, 4 x Wolfclaw + Storm Bolter, Drop Pod.

 

x 5 Terminator Wolfguard - 255pts

Assault Cannon, 4 x Wolfclaw + Storm Bolter, Drop Pod.

 

x 5 Terminator Wolfguard - 255pts

Assault Cannon, 4 x Wolfclaw + Storm Bolter, Drop Pod.

 

For two units which originally cost you 960pts. You've now got four, with better killing power, mobility and Horde killing power, both in Assault and Shooting, for 8pts less. The single Wolf Claw is most definitely worth it for only 5pts per terminator. 5pts for a power weapon which strikes at I4, And provides a choice of re-rolling Wounds or Hits, Yes Please! Especially in Logan's Pod. He'll be able able to give any unit within 18" An extra Attack AND on his unit he's attached to either preferred Enemy, Relentless, Tank Hunters or Fearless each turn.

 

Alternate Option ---

 

Another thing to do would be to run with two Pods of five Wolfguard and Logan's pod + Wolfguard, and instead allocate those 255pts saved on the third Full Wolfguard squad to give your Long Fangs Some Missile Launchers. Being able to choose Frag missiles for squishy Infantry and krak for the Cyborks is a great tool. Although mix these up with Heavy Bolters and i believe your army will be benefited greatly. And any spare points from these go to Razorbacks for the Long Fangs, armed with Heavy Bolters, any last spare points give Rhinos for your Grey Hunters after that.

 

With these possible changes out the way...

 

Drop the Whirlwind and replace it with the Vindicator. Stronger Ordnance is the bane of hordes such as Orks. The Whirlwind also has 2 Armour value less than the Vindicator meaning it'll 'hopefully' be on the table longer.

 

Hopefully some of those changes will help you vanquish your Greenskin filth problem.

[stinkenheim]

i play gainst orks a lot, and my friend takes a similar unit of nobs to your friend... theres one thing he hates, and thats termies with thunder hammers and storm shields- no feel no pain from instant death/power weapons and if he ails any cybork saves thats one dead nob. my lord normally squares of with his warboss, and with saga of the bear is a bugger to kill.

 

also a unit of blood claws with a wolf priest will help your lord to stay in the fight. the amount of damage they kick out is insane with re-rolls to hit and 4attacks each...

 

apart from that, i would say less WG, it looks like your trying to take asimilar set up to your opponent and i think taking 20 termies is a massive points sink (the termie squad i run is normally 4/5 plus lord).

 

also a dread will help with the warboss, 3 attacks on the charge and str 10 so it will instant kill him... i've found bikers, if they get the charge to be awesome at holding up units of boys for 2/3 turns... they need 6s to wound, which is great protection. the only thing to worry about is the power fist on the nob but you should cause enough casualties to win the first round and then trust your rolling to keep you there after the 2nd round.

 

maybe run a missile launcher armed long fang squad, again if your shooting the nob unit then again they will instant kill them, or you can use the blast ones to clear some of his troops. plus they ahve the range to be able to target his lootas as at the moment they are able to shoot your fangs without worrying about the return fire.

 

a unit of scouts could help too, give them a flamer and the leader a combi-flamer and OBEL them behind the lootas/big guns, should clear them pretty quick.

 

more grey hunters would be good, but i don't know about the points cost with what i have sugested already... oh btw if you can run a pack of fenrisian wolves with the bikers, the extra attacks may well see you clear the ork unit in one turn

[khaosthorpe]

Thank You for all of the information :P

[khaosthorpe]

Ok, I have one more question to ask.

 

My friend and I will be playing a 1000pt game this week at GW.

 

I was wondering with the information that you all have been so kind to offer me, what would be the best set up to face him? I am trying to find a good 1000pt army that I won’t be caught off guard come game day :rolleyes:

 

I know that with half the points of the normal games that I play with him (2000pt) I have to make some tough decisions, and this is where I need some help.

 

He still will be focusing on Nobz with pain boy and cybork bodies. He said If I bring a small group of WG in Termi armor he said he would counter that with lootas and Big Guns. He we still would bring a few boys and also he mentioned some komandos. He did specifically mention a Mad doc and have his entire army in cybork armor (or something like that). I apologize in advance, if some of the things might sound wrong, but I am trying to cover everything he said to me and what he has done in the past.

I would like to say Thank You in advanced for the info you give me.

[gojira316]

Wolf Scouts will help with the Loota's. If they come in near the Loota's they'll be able to whittle them down with shooting and hopefully assault in the turn they arrive.

[Grey Mage]

Here are the problems I am having:

1. Even though they have a low BS, he is still always taking out my WW, and a few of my guys( and HQ) every turn with his Lootas and Big Guns.

2. I am finding it difficult to take out his Nobz when he has both Cybork bodies and Pain boy. Every time I get a few wounds, he rolls his Cybork save and if that doesn’t work he rolls his pain boy save. When I send my WG at him he will take out 1-2 a turn and I will take out none.

3. I know that big templates(WW) would take out his boys, but he will space them out exactly 2 inches apart, so if I am luck I may only kill 2-3 a turn.

4. Shooting at his army is still not doing anything. This goes back to the saves with his nobz and the Spacing issue.

5. The Warbosses are brutal when it comes to the amount of attacks.

6. I know that I will always be outnumbered, but would it be better to lose the high point cost HQ’s and go with more troops?

 

 

Any additional information would be greatly appreciated. :)

1) Why is your whirlwind in line of sight to him? You have indirect fire that ignores coversaves- USE IT!

2) Are your WG armed with Powerfists? Nobz are insta-killed by powerfists and thunderhammers as they are only T 4. You should reliably kill a couple each turn. Also remember that AP 1, AP 2, Str 8 and Powerweapon type weapons ignore FNP- so dont let him take saves he shouldnt. Missile Launcher? Make that 5++ or die, one hit.

3) 2-3 a turn is better than nothing. Try to funnel him through terrain whenever possible, trees, wrecks, whatever.

4) More Long Fangs, less heavy bolters- missile launchers will kill nobz dead, and quick. Boyz die quickly to bolter fire... so stay back and just shoot unitl he hits you and then counter attack. The boy doesnt even have a kustom force field or some bloodaxe kommandos.

5) So are your HQs. Bring a Wolf Lord... better yet, bring one with Beastslayer and get all those rerolls.

6) You have 1 HQ in there, and sure hes 270pts.... but he gives you two more scoring units. You couldnt just drop Logain, youd need to drop a full WG sqaud for some troops too. In fact, you might want to anyways.

 

And why in heavens name have you got your WG with SBs and SS???!!! Senseless pointless waste. A Terminator should never, ever, under any circumstances allow the other guy to take a Saving throw that isnt invulnerable. Get some fists in their, some PWs, some wolf claws. Those are SM veterans- Make them Wolf Gaurd.

[Bonham1963]

Grey Mage made good points regarding the nobz. They should be dying in droves. His invulnerable is only +5, so I imagine, a few go down every turn. I don't know the mathhammer.

 

Also that army A you mentioned in your OP was over 2300 points, so a 300 point advantage would help them.

 

BTW, mega nobz don't get painboyz.

 

If he's running nobz with painboy, the unit allows paying for 10 nobz at X points and upgrading one of those nobz to a painboy by paying an additional X points. He doesn't get 10 nobz, plus a painboy.

 

Now go kill some greenskins!!!

[spacewolflars]

If I'm reading correctly, you've spent 960pts on those Terminators each with a Stormshield and Storm Bolter? That's quite an odd unit and expensive for poor killing power.

 

I would remove all the terminators and completely rebuild them as an entry to your army as something like this.

 

Logan Grimnar, The Great Wolf - 275pts

+

x 4 Terminator Wolfguard - 187pts

4 x Wolfclaw + Storm Bolter, Drop Pod.

 

x 5 Terminator Wolfguard - 255pts

Assault Cannon, 4 x Wolfclaw + Storm Bolter, Drop Pod.

 

x 5 Terminator Wolfguard - 255pts

Assault Cannon, 4 x Wolfclaw + Storm Bolter, Drop Pod.

 

x 5 Terminator Wolfguard - 255pts

Assault Cannon, 4 x Wolfclaw + Storm Bolter, Drop Pod.

 

For two units which originally cost you 960pts. You've now got four, with better killing power, mobility and Horde killing power, both in Assault and Shooting, for 8pts less. The single Wolf Claw is most definitely worth it for only 5pts per terminator. 5pts for a power weapon which strikes at I4, And provides a choice of re-rolling Wounds or Hits, Yes Please! Especially in Logan's Pod. He'll be able able to give any unit within 18" An extra Attack AND on his unit he's attached to either preferred Enemy, Relentless, Tank Hunters or Fearless each turn.

 

Alternate Option ---

 

Another thing to do would be to run with two Pods of five Wolfguard and Logan's pod + Wolfguard, and instead allocate those 255pts saved on the third Full Wolfguard squad to give your Long Fangs Some Missile Launchers. Being able to choose Frag missiles for squishy Infantry and krak for the Cyborks is a great tool. Although mix these up with Heavy Bolters and i believe your army will be benefited greatly. And any spare points from these go to Razorbacks for the Long Fangs, armed with Heavy Bolters, any last spare points give Rhinos for your Grey Hunters after that.

 

With these possible changes out the way...

 

Drop the Whirlwind and replace it with the Vindicator. Stronger Ordnance is the bane of hordes such as Orks. The Whirlwind also has 2 Armour value less than the Vindicator meaning it'll 'hopefully' be on the table longer.

 

Hopefully some of those changes will help you vanquish your Greenskin filth problem.

 

I'd just drop one of these wolfgaurd squads (still giving you 2 drop pods in the first turn) and get 2 vindicators and keep the whirlwind. Or if you don't have another vindi, just use the two whirlwinds. Ork nobz don't like vindicators, it takes away the feel no pain roll. Thin out the troops in front of the nobz with everything else and then vindicate the nobz. As has been said, take out the Lootas with wolf scouts.

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

taking nijal is awesome because he can halve their chance to hit with his -1 bs,

also ragnar and canis are the 2 best anti hoard armies out their, and if your worried about your lord dieing easy to gazkul, logan is good but ragnar and rockfist combined is better, as rockfist will tie up gazkuls attacks while ragnar takes out any support.

 

whirl winds are good but if you are getting hurt by gunfire maybe take a pred destructor with heavy bolters at 85

 

if i specifically built an anti orc army i would have a whirlwind, a destructor and 6 long fangs with 5 missile launchers, then i would try some how to detach a wolfguard in terminator armour with a cyclone missile launcher upgrade.

 

all up your heavy with wolfguard costs: 85+85+140+63=373 points for massive potential, as the missiles can be split so you can fir 3 frag at one squad and 4 at another, orks die very fast, and name a 21 man unit of orks that stands up to 7 missiles.

 

you could also pay 40 points and buy the long fangs a razorback, at 40 points to add a mobile wall for cover and a twin heavy bolter it's a good investment, just remember, they can't ride in it cos of the wolfguard... you could also lone it to a lone wolf with mark of the wulfen.....scariest thing for an ork army, they might not kill your whirlwind, cos they are busy killing your uber-powerful 35 point kill machine.

[rodgers37]

I HATE ORKS, i just lost to them twice..... firstly i was using a list which i new wouldn't win, but when i dropped doen 2 DPs with 10 grey hunters in and killed 10 orks, only bloody 10, including an assualt cannon shot from the LR, (32 rapid fire shots, 2 flamers over 4 men, and 2 meltas..... FAIL) i said lets call it there, it was objectives, i have 1 more squad of troops, a dread, lord and terminators, i would have been wiped by turn 3 if i had carried on tbh.

Second game, i used a lot more stuff, Canis, a rune priest, 5 TH termies, 20 Grey hunters, 5 ML long fangs, 30 Wolves and a Land raider redeemer, but again a big fail, i killed a lot more, but his bloody 8 nobs, with a warboss and painboy, with a powerclaw, WS5 with some pole or something, S6 big choppers, re-rolling pain boy, 5+ then 4+ save (with feel no pain...) they killed 2 squads of grey hunters, losing 3 nobs and 2 wound on the warboss..... the other squad died a bit more, but still killed 15 wolves (the run priest was owning them....) BIG FAIL....

 

how do I kill Orks? Grey Hunters don't work, i just can't do enough wounds to hurt the nobs, and he always gets in, in effect there is a 20" charge (12" movement in warbuggy or trukk, can't remeber what he has, 2" out of it and 6" assualt...) so always gets into whatever he wants, and then if something that he doesn't want to get in with (TH/SS terminators with a Lord...) he hides behind ork boys..... i hate him.....

[khaosthorpe]

First, THANK YOU again for all of the information that you are all offering me, it is the biggest help :devil:

 

Ok, tell me what you all think. I am trying to put together 1000 point wolf guard army to go against a Warboss/Nob 1000 point army (possibly on bikes) and any and all advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Here is my list (I am still short some points):

-Logan Grimnar

-5 Wolf Guard Pack

TDA(x5)

Storm Shields(x5)

Power Fist(x5)

Missile Launcher(x1)

Mark of the Wulfen

-5 Wolf Guard Pack

TDA(x5)

Storm Shields(x5)

Power Fist(x5)

Missile Launcher(x1)

Mark of the Wulfen

My List Points:

1.All of my offensive weapons ignore armor or cause ID just so that I can negate his FNP.

2.When it comes to Powerfist v. Thunder Hammers, I decided to go with the PF because he already has a few power claws at an I1, so I thought it would not make a difference, and it would be ID on all of his nobs, and cheaper.

3.I went with all SS because with those power claw attacks all I would have is a ++5 save and that is all, and I am out numbered so I do not want to tempt loosing to much.

4.I went with the Missile Launcher for the same reason as number 1.

 

Here is what I think the Ork List will have or close to it (Some of the numbers might be off):

-1 Warboss

Power Claw

-1 Warboss

Power Claw

-9 Nobz w/ 1 Painboy(FNP)

(3-6) Choppa’s

(3-5) Power Claws

(6-9) Sluggas

Cybork boddies

1 Boss Pole

1 Waagh banner

-9 Nobz w/ 1 Painboy(FNP)

(3-6) Choppa’s

(3-5) Power Claws

(6-9) Sluggas

Cybork boddies

1 Boss Pole

1 Waagh banner

 

Ork List Points:

1. The army will always have a pain boy.

2. He will always have power claws, and when it comes to the list above, it might be 6 Choopa’s and 3 power claws or any combinations.

3. Could have ‘eavy armor on them.

4. He Might go on bikes, he would have less nobs, but still the same make up(Power claws/Painboy)

 

and Thank You again in advanced ;)

[lunchb0x]

Run all wolf guard...just not all in terminator armour...and all with combi-flamers/plasma/melta and half of every squad with storm shields...ITS AWESOME!!!!!!