Stuck in an Undivided Rut...

[Prot]

Howdy Chaos guys,

 

For the last months I have been juggling my Chaos ideas... And in those months I've come to at least attempt to embrace the undivided/renegade style Chaos. So with that in mind I've been making Red Corsair armies, and I'm having trouble with the lists.

 

First of all, I probably win over 50% of the time, so it's not that I'm saying I can't win. The problem is I am having trouble getting performance out of the the "Red Corsairs" in the Red Corsairs list... which is bad.

 

Last night is a perfect example. I take this 'fun' style, semi-competitive list which is comprised basically of:

- Huron + 8 World Eaters in a Landraider

- 2 x 10 man Red Corsair marines (one marked Slaanesh, one marked Khorne) in Rhinos.

-2 Oblits

- 5 Termies, 3 melta-combi's, Mark of Tzeentch.

 

So I'm playing against IG... getting the bejesus shot out of me... it doesn't look like I have a chance. It's Dawn of War deployment and the IG stole initiative. I'm looking doomed... then up comes the pain wagon (Landraider) out rolls Huron and the Berzerkers and slaughters half of his flank.... The Landraider survives, and down comes the Termie squad.

 

I dropped the Termies in a suicidal spot, right in front of IG HQ, and 2 tanks, and a squad of lascannons AND a platoon section. BUT This is the way I roll. So in they come. Wack the tanks... Huron rolls up on the Platoon, and without a single casualty the World Eaters, 'assisted' by Huron smoke the squads, and other juicy remnants... pretty much winning me the game.

 

What's wrong with this Chaotic victory, I hear you ask? Well, once again I pause at the end of the game, and evaluate the list and what I could have done better..... Instantly, I think well.. .I could pull Huron for Kharne (like old times) and swap the rather useless Corsairs for World Eaters.... and... now I have a World Eater list with Oblits...

 

So my dilemma is I keep changing Chaos armies trying to find a glove that fits. I have trouble getting into the cult specific Legions because they feel.... unfinished and poorly defined. So logically I think Red Corsairs should work, but I can't get the basic Red Corsair to work! Now I know Huron isn't the greatest HQ for his points, but he's... ok, and I like the model.

 

Is it just me having this problem? I mean the marked squads perform sub standard compared to cult squads. The allocated wounds mean quite often I lose the icon early.... They just seem to really suck. In the back of my mind are Wolves, which point for point would tear the Corsairs a new one. So what am I doing wrong with the Corsairs?

 

For 'fun' I try to take 10 Corsairs with a champ. Each squad gets a basic Rhino, a champion, a meltagun, and flamer. One squad is Slaanesh, the other Khorne and they tag team an area of the table depending on the weakness of the opposition. They always do... mediocre, and perform below a Cult squad like Deathguard or World Eaters.

 

This always puts me in this circle of 'Okay basic CSM stink' so I'll drop undivided, and find the 'Cult' style armies just don't have enough current stuff to keep interested... they're just remnants now I guess.

 

So you tell me, are you finding the basic CSM is better or worse than the more expensive Cult squad? How do you use them? What HQ are you using with them?

 

Right now I'm chasing my tail. One week it's Black Legion but without Abaddon (who doesn't work at 1500pts) they don't have anything that Red Corsairs don't have access too.... and the only cult army I haven't tried is Thousand Sons (why bother?).

[minigun762]

I'm right there with you, after seeing the numbers on the new SW codex, my faith in the rank and file Chaos Marine was shaken.

 

However I'm slowly starting to build up that faith again and I'll explain why.

 

The first and foremost thing you have to think about with CSMs is that in any particular role, there is a cult unit that is better then they are.

They lose to Berserkers in pure hand to hand combat.

They lose to Noise Marines in pure anti-infantry shooting.

They lose to Plague Marines in special weapon spamming.

They even lose to Thousand Sons in anti-MEQ.

Toss in the fact that they aren't Fearless and it seems like you'd never want to take them.

 

But they have less obvious but very important strength and thats flexibility/adaptability.

Properly equipped, a CSM can do anything pretty well. They are really the epitome of the "jack of all trades" unit. In this regard they make a very good "plan B". If you rely on Termicides for your anti-tank, well dual Meltagun CSMs work pretty well as backup. If you need Berserkers for dedicated assault units, well CSMs are definately no slouch either.

This means that to use them well, you have to be thinking of them as a counter or a support unit. Use them in whatever situation the enemy is weakest at, rapid fire those Banshees or assault those Guardsmen for example or you use them as backup to your dedicated units, incase the main unit dies/fails/get lashed away etc.

 

The 2nd strength of the CSM is they're cheap. This means more bodies on the field which is a big help in itself. I know that I'm moving more and more towards a CSM horde army where I rely their flexibility and sheer numbers to carry the day through attrition.

 

Having said all that, if you're the kind of player who likes units with dedicated roles and enjoys loading up on the fancy stuff (Elites, Heavies, HQ etc) I think you're better off using a combination of Cult units, Berserkers and Plague Marines being the norm.

[Atheist]

Given the fact that - I think that - the cult troops may perform good in squads of less than 10 models ( given their toughness or extreme shooting or cc potential ) , I wouldn't call the "Vanilla" CSM squads that cheap .

 

They are quite cheap if you go for many weak troops with one special weapon and no champion .

 

But I'm sure most people will disagree with this thought .

 

Yes the "pure" Cult Legion lists are absolutely

unfinished and poorly defined

from a gameplay perspective , kind of opposite to what Mr. Thorpe suggests about the latest CSM codex in general . The old Cult Legion lists were much more playable . This of course is because units are given Icons and not marks . * Not * wanting to start an off topic discussion here , just commenting on the OP .

 

On the other hand if you go for a "many bodybags" approach ( which in the face of the new horde armies sounds like a sound choice ) then the "Vanilla" CSM is what you want , instead of cult troops . You can actually fit 40 CSM tooled up in 4 troops in a 1500 list and still have some room for a bit of heavy support . 4 10 man cult troops tooled up will leave you with almost nothing else to fill in at 1500 pts .

 

I think that the codex intended a mix of all troops , which is unwanted by most former legion players .

 

Enter the "counts as " issue and invention of own fluff .

 

Can't really say that I enjoy or am much inspired by my lists lately ...

[Brother Asmodius]

I too play Red Corsairs with my list looking something like Huron, 2 squads of Berzerkers in Rhinos, 4 squads of normal CSM in Rhinos (one with Icon of Khorne), a predator and 2 Oblits. I love taking the basic CSM. Yes they get out performed by the Berzerkers but they dont quite get the punishment directed at them that the zerkers do and you can field a mess of them. Their ability to take a Flamer for hordes and meltagun for tanks combined with far from terrible close combat and shooting skills makes them useless in very few instances. I rely heavily on my normal CSMs to do most of the fighting by sending 2+ squads at a target with oblits for range support and zerkers for combat support. It is tempting to take lots of cult troops since they seem to out perform our basic guys but zerkers cant hold objectives while firing bolters, Plauge Marines cant quite slaughter their way through combat, Noise Marines pay tons of points or sacrifice their I5 to kill tanks, and TS suffer from poor anti tank as well. Normal CSM can do all of these decently and can put more bodies on the field. Ive found its fairly difficult for an opponent to kill all 60 marines and 7 tanks.

 

As far as icons I try to stay away from any of them. They can help but like you said with the wound allocation they can become a point sink quickly and you can usually take another 1 to almost 4 marines for any icon you choose or a second special weapon or heck even a rhino.

 

One thing you could try is just for one game play an all World Eaters force and if you dont feel you need their versatility maybe normal CSM dont fit your playstyle. Ive kept in the back of my mind the idea that you could do (an extremely unfluffy) Chaos version of the Eldar Swordwind army.

 

Not sure if all this helped but its good to hear there are other Red Corsair players out there.

[EVIL INC]

Remember there is more to wining the game then just wiping out the enemy. Oh wait, that DOES win the game but anyways...

The non-cult troops do not HAVE to be hard nosed front liners. They are perfect for taking and holding objectives as well as reguler fighting. They can also serve as covering fire for your assaulty troops. Had you had a load of them in a land raider, they could have done the same as the beserkers almost as well in the close combat and then had the choice of continueing the steamroller or establishing a firebase to operate from and force the opponant to split thier fire.

The thing with the cult troops is that they are similer to the eldar in that they focus on one aspect of fighting and are not as well rounded as your basic troops. True, they are not as bad as the eldar in that way but you get the point. If you get them, be sure they are used for what they are good at. If you want to use less of them and more basic guys, use tactics and strategies that are more open ended. I find that I can use a pure basic troops and do very well.

[Cale]

I'm basically with Mini-gun on this one. I play four squads of chaos space marines in my 1500 point lists. Paying 8 points a guy to make them Plague Marines would certainly leave each squad better--they'd probably even be better for their cost. But, within the context of the list, that 70 points per unit (eight points per guy, minus ten for the Icon I'd be able to drop) would force me to drop two-thirds of my heavy support, or a whole unit of marines. Is having better units worth having only three of them instead of four? I don't really think so.

 

Of course, I could drop guys out of my squads, instead. I could play four squads of 7 guys. I'm not entirely convinced, though, that seven plague marines is better than 10 chaos marines. If anyone feels like doing some math which might convince me otherwise, I'd be interested to see it.

 

I've found, though, that my regular old CSMs are quite capable of dealing with the vast majority of situations they encounter. I don't feel a compulsion to "upgrade" them to cult troops. Given your post, Prot, I'm honestly not sure why you do.

[minigun762]

Of course, I could drop guys out of my squads, instead. I could play four squads of 7 guys. I'm not entirely convinced, though, that seven plague marines is better than 10 chaos marines. If anyone feels like doing some math which might convince me otherwise, I'd be interested to see it.

 

Its a situational thing (like most stuff).

Against weapons that aren't AP2 or S8, the Plague Marines will tend to suffer better then CSMs.

Against weapons that are AP2 or S8, the CSMs come out on top due to having more wounds.

CSMs also generate more firepower (10 guys vs 7) and assault at I4 but don't have Defensive Grenades.

Against Power Weapons, I think its pretty much a wash

10 S4 PW attacks @ WS4 = 1.67 dead PMs (or 24% of a squad)

10 S4 PW attacks @ WS4 = 2.5 dead CSMs (or 25% of a squad)

 

The point cost for 7 PMs and 10 CSM is almost identical as well, so really I consider them equivalent units in most regards.

[Cale]

Sounds about right. Still, if plague marines are generally considered to be the best cult marines, and the difference between 7 plague marines and 10 chaos marines is a reasonable set of situational trade-offs, I don't really see an imperative to switch away from CSMs to cult marines.

 

Of course, when we're talking about Berserkers, which are the other particularly good cult unit, the tradeoffs are much more clear--the berserkers are way better in combat, while the chaos marines are way better out of combat. Honestly, if Berserkers could take Meltas, I might play just Berserkers, instead. Since they can't, though, they can pretty much never replace CSMs, in my armies.

[Atheist]

The thing is that you should probably take both .

 

You see , should you be able to immobilise a vehicle ( 2 meltas may very well do that , at the very least ) , then a power fist skull champion may very well hunt up to AV14 on his charge . We're talking about a S9 weapon here , nothing to laugh about .

 

This of course means that he may very well hunt most vehicles and the rest of his squad too ( rear armor 10 means the S5 weapons of the rest of his charging troop still have a chance at penetrating hits ) .

 

Of course they lack the ap1 characteristic , and they are rightly feared by ( and consequently shot at before they close in on ) your opponent , but you have to admit that they are a really solid unit .

 

I believe that the troops are made with the thought to complement each other in the same list , but this is not acceptable ( in most cases ) by "older " players ( except Black Legion Players ) who want to play "pure"lists ( be it Undivided such as the IW , or Cult lists such as the WE ) . This is one of the main powers of the "unit rules" in the C:CSM , although very poorly presented from a "fluff" point of view .

 

True , you can be a good general and win playing with only "Vanilla" CSM , or pure Nurgle , but an equally skilled Chaotic opponent with a "mix and match" list ( that doesn't bother about fluffy choices ) will always have an edge due to partial specialization of his troops . At least this is what I think . This fact is what left most Chaos players ( including myself ) dissatisfied with their latest codex , I think .

[Corpse.]

Right now I'm chasing my tail. One week it's Black Legion but without Abaddon (who doesn't work at 1500pts) they don't have anything that Red Corsairs don't have access too.... and the only cult army I haven't tried is Thousand Sons (why bother?).

 

I'll suggest something for you to mess with.

 

The reason that your zerks did something is because of the raider. Zerks and rhinos are bullseyes made out of different shades of red. To max the use of rhino, and the squads guns I suggest this.

 

265 (10) Marines: IoK, 2 Meltaguns, Champ with powerfist and combi-flamer, combi-melta on the rhino.

Its a firepower unit, that prefers melee, the combi weapons will be used by the time they charge. The extra damage already dealt by then.

 

Imagine having to charge a unit of genestealers with zerks, just firing pistols. Wouldn't you want to vaporize a few before charging? Maybe have a unit full of 2 flamers, and 2 combi flamers (one on rhino) to make due?

 

Moving the rhino 12", use smoke, then next turn exit and charge the enemy. Or move 6" and fire two special weapons out the top.

 

If your suicidal with the marines, and have a heavy support slot open, turn them into havocs with special weapons. That way you could probly even have 5, powerfist, 4 plasma guns, combi plasma x2 one on champ and one on rhino spitting death at a unit.

 

Or turn them into chosen with 4 meltaguns and a flamer in a rhino, outflanking.

 

 

Lots of uses for those same marines in the whole list. Elite/Troop/Heavy Support swaps.

[the jeske]

10 S4 PW attacks @ WS4 = 1.67 dead PMs (or 24% of a squad)

10 S4 PW attacks @ WS4 = 2.5 dead CSMs (or 25% of a squad)

you forgot to count the defensive granedes here . if csm get hit by 10 attack on charge then a pm unit would be hit by -1A for each unit charging.

 

as match ups go. csm are better against eldar [more bodies , vs a lot of ap 2 and lower] , tau[again a lot of low ap , and you have to get in to hth with tau to break them fast] and demons [dual flamers/double taping with 8 weapons instead of 5 x 4 squad is a lot more shots].

 

but generally GH are cheaper , a mix of zerker/pms is more flexible and everything else is the same for all chaos list . boring , boring and boring.

[Zealot Of Chaos]

On the other hand if you go for a "many bodybags" approach ( which in the face of the new horde armies sounds like a sound choice ) then the "Vanilla" CSM is what you want , instead of cult troops . You can actually fit 40 CSM tooled up in 4 troops in a 1500 list and still have some room for a bit of heavy support . 4 10 man cult troops tooled up will leave you with almost nothing else to fill in at 1500 pts .

this is the approach I take

Nurgle DP with warptime

4 x 10 man Csm with IoCG, champ + powerfist, flamer and rocket launcher (for all those lovely IG tanks and useful for when that squad hunkers down on a point and isn't gonna move, not that I don't see the benefit of 2 specials but this is my play style)

3 x rhino with combi-melta

4 x Oblit

[Vissah]

I have to say since my switch from Loyalist to Chaos I defintly love the normale CSM.

I use 30 of them and send in one unit of Plague Marines aswell to tie up a unit so that the normal onces can move in for the kill.

[Prot]

Of course, I could drop guys out of my squads, instead. I could play four squads of 7 guys. I'm not entirely convinced, though, that seven plague marines is better than 10 chaos marines. If anyone feels like doing some math which might convince me otherwise, I'd be interested to see it.

 

Its a situational thing (like most stuff).

 

 

Yes situational is the word. But taking a 'typical' tournament situation where you can't change your list for a weekend or whatever.... I'm still finding a pure cult list with specific roles seems to last better over all.... rather than having one squad that is 'meh' at shooting, and 'meh' in close combat. The only thing I'm certain of though is icons are just horrid... no matter how much I try them, overall, they aren't worth it. It's not only the cost, but as has been said in the past... a total gamble with wound allocation. The manner in which icons work... is just plain stupid.

 

 

Right now I'm chasing my tail. One week it's Black Legion but without Abaddon (who doesn't work at 1500pts) they don't have anything that Red Corsairs don't have access too.... and the only cult army I haven't tried is Thousand Sons (why bother?).

 

I'll suggest something for you to mess with.

 

The reason that your zerks did something is because of the raider. Zerks and rhinos are bullseyes made out of different shades of red. To max the use of rhino, and the squads guns I suggest this.

 

If your suicidal with the marines, and have a heavy support slot open, turn them into havocs with special weapons. That way you could probly even have 5, powerfist, 4 plasma guns, combi plasma x2 one on champ and one on rhino spitting death at a unit.

 

Or turn them into chosen with 4 meltaguns and a flamer in a rhino, outflanking.

 

 

 

This is interesting... a tad expensive in 1500 but I may try it..... I was going to pop a vindicator in the list, but now I'm thinking DP with Warp Time and Wings..... and Havoks on the run with plasma and fist. Might take lots of juggling.

 

 

On the other hand if you go for a "many bodybags" approach ( which in the face of the new horde armies sounds like a sound choice ) then the "Vanilla" CSM is what you want , instead of cult troops . You can actually fit 40 CSM tooled up in 4 troops in a 1500 list and still have some room for a bit of heavy support . .

this is the approach I take

Nurgle DP with warptime

4 x 10 man Csm with IoCG, champ + powerfist, flamer and rocket launcher (for all those lovely IG tanks and useful for when that squad hunkers down on a point and isn't gonna move, not that I don't see the benefit of 2 specials but this is my play style)

3 x rhino with combi-melta

4 x Oblit

 

-How many of you guys are seriously finding it point efficient to put combi-melta's on Rhino's? When this edition of the codex first came out I tried Havock Launchers and they were fun, but to be honest, I think a one shot melta is even a weaker choice... no? You tell me.

 

 

I have to say since my switch from Loyalist to Chaos I defintly love the normale CSM.

I use 30 of them and send in one unit of Plague Marines aswell to tie up a unit so that the normal onces can move in for the kill.

 

That's interesting coming from a loyalist, but I'd have to say it isn't the basic loyalist marine that makes the army, but rather some of those juicy characters, so I'm not sure if it's fair to compare one on one.... plus without an icon... you gotta admit, '...no fear' is pretty nice with loyalist. :D

 

Lots of the list ideas are pretty neat, but this IS supposed to be a Corsair army, and as such it revolves around maximizing Huron. Maybe that's part of my problem.... The 40 man basic marine army doesn't -seem- like it would work to me in a competitive environment, but for the sake of argument... I will try it! I will swap the DP with Huron... or something. Any way, you've given me something to chew on. thanks.

[Zealot Of Chaos]

On the other hand if you go for a "many bodybags" approach ( which in the face of the new horde armies sounds like a sound choice ) then the "Vanilla" CSM is what you want , instead of cult troops . You can actually fit 40 CSM tooled up in 4 troops in a 1500 list and still have some room for a bit of heavy support . .

this is the approach I take

Nurgle DP with warptime

4 x 10 man Csm with IoCG, champ + powerfist, flamer and rocket launcher (for all those lovely IG tanks and useful for when that squad hunkers down on a point and isn't gonna move, not that I don't see the benefit of 2 specials but this is my play style)

3 x rhino with combi-melta

4 x Oblit

 

-How many of you guys are seriously finding it point efficient to put combi-melta's on Rhino's? When this edition of the codex first came out I tried Havock Launchers and they were fun, but to be honest, I think a one shot melta is even a weaker choice... no? You tell me.

I find them useful due to the fact that 5th is very mech lists, so always plenty of armour to go after, true I could drop all 3 and almost afford another Rhino but theres nothing so satisfying as getting an empty rhino next to that hammerhead / leman russ / fire prism / "insert gneric tank here" and going fwoosh, by the time the rhino is empty most people don't see it as a threat so I then rush them forward, if they shoot the rhinos they aren't shooting something more expensive, it they don't shoot the rhinos = melta, bolter and tank shock

[Vissah]

Of course, I could drop guys out of my squads, instead. I could play four squads of 7 guys. I'm not entirely convinced, though, that seven plague marines is better than 10 chaos marines. If anyone feels like doing some math which might convince me otherwise, I'd be interested to see it.

 

Its a situational thing (like most stuff).

 

 

Yes situational is the word. But taking a 'typical' tournament situation where you can't change your list for a weekend or whatever.... I'm still finding a pure cult list with specific roles seems to last better over all.... rather than having one squad that is 'meh' at shooting, and 'meh' in close combat. The only thing I'm certain of though is icons are just horrid... no matter how much I try them, overall, they aren't worth it. It's not only the cost, but as has been said in the past... a total gamble with wound allocation. The manner in which icons work... is just plain stupid.

 

 

Right now I'm chasing my tail. One week it's Black Legion but without Abaddon (who doesn't work at 1500pts) they don't have anything that Red Corsairs don't have access too.... and the only cult army I haven't tried is Thousand Sons (why bother?).

 

I'll suggest something for you to mess with.

 

The reason that your zerks did something is because of the raider. Zerks and rhinos are bullseyes made out of different shades of red. To max the use of rhino, and the squads guns I suggest this.

 

If your suicidal with the marines, and have a heavy support slot open, turn them into havocs with special weapons. That way you could probly even have 5, powerfist, 4 plasma guns, combi plasma x2 one on champ and one on rhino spitting death at a unit.

 

Or turn them into chosen with 4 meltaguns and a flamer in a rhino, outflanking.

 

 

 

This is interesting... a tad expensive in 1500 but I may try it..... I was going to pop a vindicator in the list, but now I'm thinking DP with Warp Time and Wings..... and Havoks on the run with plasma and fist. Might take lots of juggling.

 

 

On the other hand if you go for a "many bodybags" approach ( which in the face of the new horde armies sounds like a sound choice ) then the "Vanilla" CSM is what you want , instead of cult troops . You can actually fit 40 CSM tooled up in 4 troops in a 1500 list and still have some room for a bit of heavy support . .

this is the approach I take

Nurgle DP with warptime

4 x 10 man Csm with IoCG, champ + powerfist, flamer and rocket launcher (for all those lovely IG tanks and useful for when that squad hunkers down on a point and isn't gonna move, not that I don't see the benefit of 2 specials but this is my play style)

3 x rhino with combi-melta

4 x Oblit

 

-How many of you guys are seriously finding it point efficient to put combi-melta's on Rhino's? When this edition of the codex first came out I tried Havock Launchers and they were fun, but to be honest, I think a one shot melta is even a weaker choice... no? You tell me.

 

 

I have to say since my switch from Loyalist to Chaos I defintly love the normale CSM.

I use 30 of them and send in one unit of Plague Marines aswell to tie up a unit so that the normal onces can move in for the kill.

 

That's interesting coming from a loyalist, but I'd have to say it isn't the basic loyalist marine that makes the army, but rather some of those juicy characters, so I'm not sure if it's fair to compare one on one.... plus without an icon... you gotta admit, '...no fear' is pretty nice with loyalist. ;)

 

Lots of the list ideas are pretty neat, but this IS supposed to be a Corsair army, and as such it revolves around maximizing Huron. Maybe that's part of my problem.... The 40 man basic marine army doesn't -seem- like it would work to me in a competitive environment, but for the sake of argument... I will try it! I will swap the DP with Huron... or something. Any way, you've given me something to chew on. thanks.

 

I did not mean the Loyalist Marines I mean I love the Chaos Marines.

They are basicly the reason why I turned to the Chaos Codex and yeah I field them with an IoCG

[minigun762]

Of course, I could drop guys out of my squads, instead. I could play four squads of 7 guys. I'm not entirely convinced, though, that seven plague marines is better than 10 chaos marines. If anyone feels like doing some math which might convince me otherwise, I'd be interested to see it.

 

Its a situational thing (like most stuff).

 

 

Yes situational is the word. But taking a 'typical' tournament situation where you can't change your list for a weekend or whatever.... I'm still finding a pure cult list with specific roles seems to last better over all.... rather than having one squad that is 'meh' at shooting, and 'meh' in close combat. The only thing I'm certain of though is icons are just horrid... no matter how much I try them, overall, they aren't worth it. It's not only the cost, but as has been said in the past... a total gamble with wound allocation. The manner in which icons work... is just plain stupid.

 

I wouldn't say that they're "meh". Honestly CSMs are above average in either category.

I'll have to run the numbers later but if you compare a typical Berserker squad to a typical CSM squad, you'll see that CSMs are competitive.

8 Berserkers, Power Fist Champion, Rhino = 243 points

10 CSMs, Flamer, Meltagun, Power Fist Champion = 240 points

 

vs MEQs the Berserkers are likely to get 7.3 kills and the CSMs 5.6 and thats considering that both units get the charge in.

However at 13"+, the Berserkers can do next to nothing but the CSMs can still dump Bolter rounds downstream. Even factoring in 1 round of Bolter fire will kill 1.1 MEQs, and suddenly that number jumps up to 6.7, which is fairly close to what the Berserkers are doing.

 

So I would definately consider 40 CSMs to be a competitive build, instead of 2x7 Plague Marines and 2x8 Berserkers which is probably the norm. Hell, its what I base most of my lists on. :lol:

 

But yeah, Icons = stupid. IoCG is the only one thats really competitive and thats because its so cheap.

[Corpse.]

Coming from 3rd to 5th, I'm happy we get 3 points in free grenades now. Our marines come with both range and melee weapons. Packing superior rules for flame weapons, and the premier anti tank guns at short range, with no (for those who remember) roll a 2 and overheat plasma guns. Icons are disliked, but is an alternative to painting icons on every shoulder pad to show their bonus.

 

I fiddled with 20 size units for a long while, and found their best benefits is using one, single 35 point rhino to give them all 4+ cover saves as they walk (and now can +1D6" run in 5th). Making them viable in a way. While keeping their 4 special models alive inside 16 other bodies, any charge they took was repelled by at least 15 models + the champ with the counter move they are forced to make and 2" helpers distance with full attacks. (In 3rd, you had to be in base contact to get full attacks).

 

We've gotten brazen to believe that our marines suck because other marines are similar to ours. (some say superior, I disagree, our entire list is melee and then some with great models that will wipe the floor with theirs)

 

Kraks now hit the rear of vehicles. Man, looking back I don't think I could play 3rd edition with a melee army, sometimes I wonder how I did it back then. With shooting almost as bad back then as it is now. 5th edition is for the melee armies. Our marines are still at the top, compare them with what else we can add and they stay that way. Compare them to other models like grey hunters, look at their entire army list full of 400 pts in T4 HQ's and 35 point ignore instant death upgrades for 2 wound models and you realize, we're still the better codex.

 

Daemon Prince, Greater Daemon generic, our lesser daemons fill the roles they were made for better, heck I'll go as far as telling the wolf player that I agree not to shoot if he wont and we'll duke it out in melee combat alone. (Well, I was challenged for it, apparently he didn't know my obliterators and defiler are deadlier in melee, charging his monster hunter saga characters toward my defiler was amusing /5attacks)

 

Having beaten that fella in that way, he started shooting again against the agreement saying it was just for a turn. Made me grin.

[chillin]

2 x 10 man Red Corsair marines (one marked Slaanesh, one marked Khorne) in Rhinos.

I mean the marked squads perform sub standard compared to cult squads. One squad is Slaanesh, the other Khorne They always do... mediocre, and perform below a Cult squad like Deathguard or World Eaters.

This always puts me in this circle of 'Okay basic CSM stink' so I'll drop undivided,

 

Well I think everybody knows that IoK csm 's aren't as good as brzrkrs. And IoS only gives an advantage against some enemies, and even then it's not always that muxh of one. From what you've said you have not undivided to drop. Undivided is IoCG (in this sub-par dex anyway :D ), and 10 IoCG csm's with a champ and 2 specials in a rino is a good squad, for a fare bit fewer pts then most cult squads.

Basic csm's far from "stink", they are still one of the most effective and versitle troops in the game.

[Atheist]

Undivided is IoCG (in this sub-par dex anyway <_< ),

 

Agreed , although IoS can be a useful upgrade and not extremely expensive ( if you can live with the whole "oops!! I dropped it again" story ) .

 

and 10 IoCG csm's with a champ and 2 specials in a rino is a good squad, for a fare bit fewer pts then most cult squads.

 

I would agree if 10-man squads were the only way to field cult troops such as berzerkers or plagues ( I can't say that Noise or Sons are that strong of a choice ) , so I can't agree a 100% with that .

 

Basic csm's far from "stink", they are still one of the most effective and versitle troops in the game.

 

Absolutely true , but comparing a well though "Chaos Soup" list which includes the highly specialised cult troops and a few VCSM in the mix to a an all VCSM list I believe that the former will have an edge over its opponent . On the other hand , VCSM may be tooled up to be able to handle almost anything ( but plagues are stronger , because they can have almost all options as the VCSM - besides the one heavy weapon per troop , which is rarely played ) .

 

*edit* some of the above don;t take into any consideration possible "fluff issues" */end edit*