Walter Payton Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 I have to agree... although I love the Night Lords, their primarch was just an epic fail. Sitting around waiting for his death naked? This guy went insane over the violence and the death and the universe, when nobody else did? What the heck? Why was such an awesome legion stuck with such a failure? Naked? Where the hell does it say he was naked? And, for the record, Konrad Curze would kick Lorgar's ass, Dark Apostle boy! My theory is that the evil bit of him was killed by the assasin (he had a split personality). After all, Alpharius Omegon is one soul in two bodies, I think Konrad Curze is two souls in one body, and the C'Tan phase sword sucked out the nasty one. Make of that what you will. He is still around, as a vigilante. But then, I could be completely wrong. But Konrad rules. The most dissappointing primarch is Lorgar, imo. After all, who burns a galaxy, becomes a daemon of prodigious power, and then, err, walls himself into a temple and meditates for millenia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted January 16, 2010 Share Posted January 16, 2010 Woah, no need to troll buddy... Lorgar vs. Curze, I am not sure who would win... As for the naked bit, most people have said previously on this thread, that when refering to disapointment in Curze, it came from what I stated... I believe they are basing that off of Lord of Night? Not sure, but they weren't contradicted, so I merely voiced my agreement with their statements, no need to get offensive... Not sure if you picked Lorgar just to irk me though, can't say I was impressed by him either, though it was more of "Daddy said I can't build temples? My life is ruined!" What shalowness. I lie the Word Bearers because they and I are both intense in our faith, although that faith is very different... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted January 16, 2010 Share Posted January 16, 2010 It is just that the Night Lords were not actually as righteous and wrongfully accused as the protagonist is convinced throughout the book. ;)Though that bit is still open to debate, Acerbus is a Daemon after all and cannot be trusted. Neither of them can and that is the beauty of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 16, 2010 Share Posted January 16, 2010 But then "Lord of the Night" is not a stand alone work. We have other sources on the Night Lords' history. If you are reluctant to trust Acerbus' account as he mocks Sahaal for not knowing the truth, consult the Index Astartes Night Lords, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted January 16, 2010 Share Posted January 16, 2010 @DarkApostleThirst Sorry, I was being a dick. I just got a bit irritated when you said that he was naked. I picked Lorgar because I genuinely don't like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted January 16, 2010 Share Posted January 16, 2010 Thats alright, we all have our moments... Come to think of it, you should have seen how po'd I got in the siege of Terra debate, had to go back and apoligize for doing that, so I definitely don't hold it against you. Yeah, like I said, I really don't like Lorgar because he got so upset over being told he was doing it wrong. When he gets to ultimate power, he then goes and locks himself away again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted January 16, 2010 Share Posted January 16, 2010 Sorry again mate. I just had this image of Konrad sitting there in his Y-fronts eating Pizza Hut....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-wrex Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 Thats alright, we all have our moments... Come to think of it, you should have seen how po'd I got in the siege of Terra debate, had to go back and apoligize for doing that, so I definitely don't hold it against you. That was a pretty good debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 But then "Lord of the Night" is not a stand alone work. We have other sources on the Night Lords' history. If you are reluctant to trust Acerbus' account as he mocks Sahaal for not knowing the truth, consult the Index Astartes Night Lords, for example. /devil's advocate Who's to say that Zho isn't right? Outside of the IA article and Lord of the Night there's the story Nightfall, which clearly indicate a schism within the Legion ala Sahaal's mentality vs Acerbus's. Given those grounds Acerbus cannot truly be in the right as Zho was the only NL to miss the fall of the Legion (that we know of). devil's advocate/ Here's my own theory, They each believe that the other is lying/is deluded and I think that they are both right to an extent. Only - they are victims of Konrad's madness. Just like the book alludes to, Curze told a different story to each of his favoured sons, at different times, and in different 'minds' or personalities if you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 We have Sahaals account, which describes that the Emperor knew about the Night Lord Legion's excesses and tolerated them as they were effective, but later underhanded tried to have Night Haunter removed by sending several assassins after him even well before the heresy began. Night Haunter also ensured Sahaal that all the actions of the Night Lords were done as a neccessary means to controll populations via terror. Then we have Acerbus' account, which explains that Night Haunter had eventually realized what was happening to the Legion, but kept Sahaal in the dark. Not only that, Night Haunter had lied about the Emperor condoning the Night Lord's actions and sending Assasins after him during the great crusade. Then we have the Index Astartes, which explains that the Night Lords went from using Terror as a mere tool to horrible excesses once they started to introduce the criminal population of Nostramo into their ranks, that Night Haunter himself could not take it anymore and personally took the Night Lords on a crusade of terror and violence, and that the Emperor was about to take actions about it before the heresy started. That just does not match Sahaals account. It does correspond perfectly with Acerbus' account though. Given those grounds Acerbus cannot truly be in the right as Zho was the only NL to miss the fall of the Legion (that we know of). Sahaal was still part of the Legion when they sided with Horus and through the heresy, untill some time after the battle for Terra when Night Haunter was killed. He is a Chaos Space Marine, and even calls on the powers of Chaos in "Lord of the Night" to aid him. But he was deluded about the reasons and the Legion's motivation. He did not seem to realize that they had become a Legion of sadistic butchers, and that they were not causing Terror as a tool, but because of their own enjoyment. I am sure there were many members among the Night Lords, and possibly the other Legions, who thought that they were in the right. But others were realizing what they were doing and what they had become, and Acerbus was one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 Thats alright, we all have our moments... Come to think of it, you should have seen how po'd I got in the siege of Terra debate, had to go back and apoligize for doing that, so I definitely don't hold it against you. That was a pretty good debate. That doesn't make it any better that I got so angry... Like I said, I apoligized for being rude, so because I have been in that posistion I know the whole "Ah crap, I was being an a-hole, man, that was bad... 'goes over and apoligizes'" feeling... I must be getting sentimental if I am giving a message on manners in a forum over a universe full of grimdarkness, constant death, screaming bald men and Angry Marines B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 @brother nihm: i actually think your theory has some serious leg to stand on. whats to say that kruze wasnt bi-polar, and each of his captains only say a certain side of him. this would make both of them right in their views, but in the twist that 40k seems to thrive on, but wrong at the same time. they only saw pieces of the puzzle that made up the night haunter. the only thing that bugs me is why the emperor of all people woud send assassains after the man. he of all people should know the varying extremes of warfare, and if anything, would publicly rebuke him like he does to magnus (the council of nikea) and lograr (his whole i'm not a god speech). the emperor was also secluded in the dungeons of the imperial palace for months leading up the the heresy. i find it much more likely that malcador (though i doubt him, he seems smarter than this) or another of the high ranking govt official to sanction the use of any efforts to off the night haunter. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Lysander Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 I will go read Lord of Night, perhaps it shall illuminate me why Curze did what he did. One of the best BL novels, with flashbacks to Heresy and post-Heresy stuff, great insight into Night Lords and Curze himself, their relationship with Chaos.... It's a must-read. Thanks for giving me a new book on my 'must-read' list. I never knew about the book. Seems interesting. I know this must've been repeated quite a few times already, but I find the Thousand Sons' betrayal the most tragic of all legions. Other legions all chose to follow Chaos, but they were forced to. Had the Emperor been more thoughtful and caring towards his sons, this may never had happened. The same could be said of the World Eaters and Word Bearers legions... Well, in fact, you could partly blame the Emperor for leading up to an 'earlier' heresy: were he less bashful towards Lorgar, the WBs wouldn't have turned traitor, thus no heresy. I'm not saying there wouldn't have been one eventually of course, thus the '...' over earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 13th Goat Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 and well done russ?with the exception of vulkan, corax and ferrus manus, every loyalist plant has been invaded before. Technically Vulkan ALSO fought of Dark Eldar, Corax was raised on a moon and bombed Deliverance and Mannus wreastled with a necron worm. So, THEY ALL have had their worlds invaded in some form. In fact, Russ is one of the few that it didn't really happen to, at least till he went awol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 and well done russ?with the exception of vulkan, corax and ferrus manus, every loyalist plant has been invaded before. Technically Vulkan ALSO fought of Dark Eldar, Corax was raised on a moon and bombed Deliverance and Mannus wreastled with a necron worm. So, THEY ALL have had their worlds invaded in some form. In fact, Russ is one of the few that it didn't really happen to, at least till he went awol. in corax's case it wasnt so much of a planetary invasion...it was more of a inspired planetary rebellion/war. he was the rebel in this case. the silver worm and ferrus...has it officially been called a necron, and if so, where? i like the background of the game and would be angry if i missed something so awesome. and yes, vulkan was a mistake on my part. i would point out the DE weren't so much of invaders as they were raiders. invaders come and take land. raiders come sporadically and take resources. and if we are going hardcore fluff, older nid books and the space wolf book sya that the kraken, and many other sea life of fenris, may be the remains of a failed nid invasion. making fenris invaded pre-russ. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 13th Goat Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 Mannus's giant, throbbing wyrm ( :huh: ) althought never specified, is highly suspected as being necron, and considering something similar happened in the Ultramarines series, it wouldn't suprise me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 Mannus's giant, throbbing wyrm ( :huh: ) althought never specified, is highly suspected as being necron, and considering something similar happened in the Ultramarines series, it wouldn't suprise me. and he beat it with only his hands? (two can play at this game...) WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 13th Goat Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 And got it all over his hands and arms. Messy boy :huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 Mannus's giant, throbbing wyrm ( :D ) althought never specified, is highly suspected as being necron, and considering something similar happened in the Ultramarines series, it wouldn't suprise me. Random idea, just letting you know beforehand I don't know what exactly happened. Is that where he fought it with his bare hands, he managed to destroy it but it ate his hands or something? And he tookl its metal and made a new pair of hands from it? Like I said, I don't know but that is just an idea that occurred to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of Ecstasy Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 Well, I've been browsing through this topic for a while, and Ithink I'd like to share my two cents on the EC, considering they happen to be my favorite legion. I think rather than be angry at Fugrim, one has to sympathize for him. He never truly wanted to kill Ferrus, yet the daemon within his sword was too great of a power for him to control. It's kinda like Anakin Skywalker in the most recent film where he's overcome by anger and force-chokes Padme. He's blinded by the Dark Side like Fulgrim was blinded by Chaos and struck down the one he loved most. (Though Padme didn't die immediatley.) And afterwards, he realised what he did and grieved for killing Padme. (The scene where he yells "Nooo.." after donning his infamous black armor.) Likewise, Fulgrim grieved for Ferrus. So I really think one has to feel sorry for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philpill Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 off topic: ^ Ecstasy http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ecstasy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of Ecstasy Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 off topic: ^ Ecstasy http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ecstasy *cries* How did I misspell that!? I wish a mod cold fix it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 13th Goat Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 Is that where he fought it with his bare hands, he managed to destroy it but it ate his hands or something? And he tookl its metal and made a new pair of hands from it? Like I said, I don't know but that is just an idea that occurred to me. When it dies, the skin ran off and seaped into his wounds. Covered his arms and turned the metal, or so i was led to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 Is that where he fought it with his bare hands, he managed to destroy it but it ate his hands or something? And he tookl its metal and made a new pair of hands from it? Like I said, I don't know but that is just an idea that occurred to me. When it dies, the skin ran off and seaped into his wounds. Covered his arms and turned the metal, or so i was led to believe. Thanks for clearing that up, I read Fulgrim and I was wondering how his hands became metal, I read about the fight and that idea hit me. Thanks for clearing that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 13th Goat Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Personally, the Lion has to be the most dissappointing. His desire to be warmaster led him to forgo his usual "paranoid" attitude and give mighty seige engines to Perturabo. Plus its unclear where he went after that battle, and one can only guess he was in no real hurry to stop Horus make an fool of himself and ruin his spot as warmaster. In the series, however, by in large it has to Khan and Perturabo, who both have yet to actually have a story! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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