Brother Augustine Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 I was most dissappointed in the Emperor's Children and Fulgrim. To watch such a grand display of loyalty to the Emperor and utter perfection fall into decadence and debauchery because of a demon in a sword they found on a xenos world...'tis sad. I have to say at the end of Fulgrim I was struck by how pathetic the legion seemed. Don't get me wrong, they are still awesome and make incredible badguys, but it was disappointing to watch it all happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 I will go read Lord of Night, perhaps it shall illuminate me why Curze did what he did. One of the best BL novels, with flashbacks to Heresy and post-Heresy stuff, great insight into Night Lords and Curze himself, their relationship with Chaos.... It's a must-read. Seconded.. one of the best 'Heresy but not part of the Heresy series books'.. Really adds some depth to the background of the Legion, definitely one of my top 10 SM reads.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 I will go read Lord of Night, perhaps it shall illuminate me why Curze did what he did. One of the best BL novels, with flashbacks to Heresy and post-Heresy stuff, great insight into Night Lords and Curze himself, their relationship with Chaos.... It's a must-read. Seconded.. one of the best 'Heresy but not part of the Heresy series books'.. Really adds some depth to the background of the Legion, definitely one of my top 10 SM reads.. Well well, look what the cat dragged in. Went walk-about Pac? Someone's blog has been still a while now.... :) :) So what are your top 10 SM reads then and why? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Haha thanks mate :( I'm going to be moving abroad for a year shortly, and the last few months have been a pain of trying to organise different things and running around in circles (or so it seems), BUT, I will be updating again.. :P Hmm, how about a top 8? :) (in no particular order, other than the 1st few) 1) Space Marine - My favourite 40k book of all time, GW would rather you forget its ambull-riding Squats, but I have never read a book with such characters and powerful emotions involved. That this book is not sat on GW shelves, and not required reading for everyone coming into the hobby, is criminal! :) 2) Horus Rising - Introduction of the Heresy series, sets a new scene outside the 40k norm. 3) Storm of Iron - At last a book about chaos marines which has them as living breathing characters, and not comic-book evil. 4) Fulgrim - Uses 'a wizard did it' as its main plot device, but the most tragic and emotionally powerful story dealing with the fall of a Primarch so far. 5) Ultramarines Series - Some of it is a little too much '80's action film', but the character development is something not normally seen amongst the emotionless-clone marines of many modern BL SM books. 6) Angels of Darkness - Apparently some other BL writers roll their eyes when this book is mentioned, and DA fanboys have cried themselves hoarse in outrage over its content, but the final chapter of this book and its staggering impact makes it essential reading. 7) Lord of the Night - Great story, again great twists and fleshes out a previously two-dimensional legion. 8) Galaxy in Flames - Just for how epic the story is! ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LorgarXVII17 Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 A quote from someone like 20 pages ago... Forgive me brothers, im still not sure how to do the whole quoting thing. Quote: To me, the biggest disappointment of all is Lorgar. The Emperor made it clear to him that, while superhuman, he was by no means divine. Lorgar went on with his shtick, wasting time trying to convert those he conquered to a pointless cult--given that the recipient of its worship wanted nothing to do with it. As a result, Lorgar progressed at a rate lower than any other Legion, and had to be sanctioned by it. It takes some degree of incompetence and misplaced effort to get lumped into the same category as Angron (the only other Primarch to get sanctioned during the Great Crusade)... and that guy at least had an excuse. Glad I could help... I see a lot of people here werent impressed with my legions efforts to make the galaxy a better place. I tried, what else do you want from me?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-wrex Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 A quote from someone like 20 pages ago... Forgive me brothers, im still not sure how to do the whole quoting thing. Quote: To me, the biggest disappointment of all is Lorgar. The Emperor made it clear to him that, while superhuman, he was by no means divine. Lorgar went on with his shtick, wasting time trying to convert those he conquered to a pointless cult--given that the recipient of its worship wanted nothing to do with it. As a result, Lorgar progressed at a rate lower than any other Legion, and had to be sanctioned by it. It takes some degree of incompetence and misplaced effort to get lumped into the same category as Angron (the only other Primarch to get sanctioned during the Great Crusade)... and that guy at least had an excuse. Glad I could help... I see a lot of people here werent impressed with my legions efforts to make the galaxy a better place. I tried, what else do you want from me?! Maybe it's my atheistic nature, but I oppose any legion that tried to "church up" the Emprah's visions. The Word Bearers are nothing but another group of deluded lackeys, as far as I'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LorgarXVII17 Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Sorry to double post, but after reading some more of this forum, I cant help but feel Lorgar is a bloody mess from all the bashing hes been given. I suppose so, let all who hate Lorgar speak now. Did anyone ever consider Lorgar actually got what he wanted in the end? Since the Emperor was imprisoned on the Golden Throne, hes now worshipped as a god by pretty much everyone in the Imperium. Does no one else see the irony in this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-wrex Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Sorry to double post, but after reading some more of this forum, I cant help but feel Lorgar is a bloody mess from all the bashing hes been given. Lorgar was religious from the start, no? When the Emperor came down, it was like meeting his god. Imagine God himself appearing right before your eyes. Lorgar worshipped him as a god, but was devastated when the Emperor simply said "Stop worshipping me, theres no gods, get to conquering". A person whos entire life was spent worshipping a being, shot down in a second. How would that make you feel if whatever god you worshipped came down, told you hes not a real god, and to stop worshipping him after youve been doing so for many years? So, Erebus told Lorgar of gods that actually wanted and demanded worship. I suppose Lorgar went with the Chaos gods because he wanted someone else to worship, maybe to cope with the fact that the Emperor didnt want to be worshipped, whatever. So, he went with it. I just wish people would be a little nicer to the primarch that pretty much started the Chaos Space Marines... A valid point, fluff wise. But why be nice to the dude who basically inspired the entire Heresy? My boys Vulkan and Russ couldn't continue kicking asses because of what Lorgar ended up causing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LorgarXVII17 Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Its not the fact that Lorgar went to Chaos that most people seem to be mad about, its the fact that he was affected so deeply by the Emperor not wanting to be worshipped. How is Perturabos any different? He went to Chaos mainly because he hated Dorn. Thats no reason to betray all of humanity. Why did Alpharius turn? Is there a good reason behind that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-wrex Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 There are very few honestly 'good' reasons why so many of the primarchs went to chaos. The fact that they did is simply to lend credence to the overall traginc overtones of the Heresy story-arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LorgarXVII17 Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 True, very true... I dont think anyone will see it up above, so ill say it again. Did anyone ever consider Lorgar got what he wanted in the end? After the Emperor was placed on the Golden Throne, all the Imperium pretty much worships him, all because of Lorgars actions. Does nobody see the irony in that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-wrex Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 True, very true... I dont think anyone will see it up above, so ill say it again. Did anyone ever consider Lorgar got what he wanted in the end? After the Emperor was placed on the Golden Throne, all the Imperium pretty much worships him, all because of Lorgars actions. Does nobody see the irony in that? I do, man, I do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 i think that the entire HH series is going to be filled with tragic ironies, Lograr's being among the worst. that said, i do have a intense dislike for Lograr for his reliance on his religious beliefs during a Crusade meant to purge such beliefs from the galaxy. The Emperor told Lograr to use his faith in a more useful manner. "Look to Robute Guilliman of the Ultramarines. He has faith in excess. He has faith that our mission is holy, not I. His example is the one i would command you to follow" page 126 of the Collected Visions If Lograr took support from this message, that his faith is not a bad thing, its sole folly is where he places it, then Lograr could have come out of this a stronger, more powerful Primarch...and woe to any who meetsw such a figure in battle. What happened instead is he ran to whatever powerful being would put a bandaid on his skinned knee and tell him everything is going to be alright. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 that said, i do have a intense dislike for Lograr for his reliance on his religious beliefs during a Crusade meant to purge such beliefs from the galaxy. Personally, I think the reason Lorgar turned to other worship is because the Emperor's beliefs came a-cropper. Essentially the Great Crusade set off from Terra to 'free' people from the worship of false gods and found that those gods were very real. The Star Gods, the Ork Gods, the Chaos Gods - the Emperor knew about them. On a purely philosophical level, Lorgar was right - there are gods. Is it any wonder that when the Emperor told him not to worship him that he found another outlet? If you think about it, all the other Primarchs are atheists who've just found gods. Lorgar is a former theist turned atheist who's just found gods. Why do you think he was the one to succumb? He'd proven the Emperor wrong on something. Looking at it from Lorgar's perspective, the worst mistake the Emperor made was not to accept some form of worship. If he had done that then the Heresy would probably not have happened, and he could have drawn all the Chaos cults to his cause (weakening the Chaos Gods) before turning them from worship. If you're going to make people stop worshipping gods, the first thing you have to do is kill the gods. If you don't do that, you're doomed to failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 "Look to Robute Guilliman of the Ultramarines. He has faith in excess. He has faith that our mission is holy, not I. His example is the one i would command you to follow" page 126 of the Collected Visions WLK Be fair to Lorgar. If someone told me to follow the Ultramaine's example I would ;) out an oolitic kidney. And then beat them to death with it. Lorgar: But you are a god Daddy, you have to be worshipped. Emperor: No, son, I am just you're dad, we all seem like Gods to our sons. Lorgar: If youre my dad, then why do you never play baseball with me. Kor Phaeron's dad played baseball with him... Emperor: I dont have time. Sorry Lorgar: Angron says you're a fether Emperor: Where did you learn language like that?! Lorgar: Angron told it to me. Emperor: Now son, Angron has had a difficult past... Lorgar: I united a planet.... Kor Phaeron: Yeah! Emperor: You shut up, Millhouse. Lorgar: Why are you so mean to all my friends! I hate you! I hate you! Emperor sighs, then leaves Kor Phaeron (now wearing a dark suit, glasses and mafiosi hat) sidles up to Lorgar: Hey, amigo, wanna know a big secret...... @Pacific My BL top 7 are: 1. The Gaunt's Ghosts series: Massively powerful in and out of combat. I have cried on four occasions in my life: When I was at primary school, when my Grandpa died, When Bragg died, and at the end of Sabbat Martyr (but Milo will come back as a Grey Knight Brother-Captain). Warmaster Macaroth: The attack on Gaur's Fortress shall be led by the Grey Knight's Purgation Team, led by Brother-Captain Milo. Elim Rawne, Ibram Gaunt, Ban Daur, Viktor Hark, Dohon 'Shoggy' Domor, Captain Raglon, Captain Arcuda, and Tona Criid simultaneously: @£$! me! Brin Milo (wearing Grey Knight Terminator armour, accompaned by an angelic choir, wielding a psycannon and a crackling force weapon): Hello Sir! 2. Space Wolf: The original and best SM series. William King is a terrific writer, and the interplay between Sven and Nils was some of the best I've seen. Plus, Ragnar is a massively engaging character. (the astute will have noticed that the above two series get perhaps the ultimate BL accolade-having your hero turned into official rules and a model) 3. The Salamander Series: When I first saw that there was going to be a Salamander series by Nick Kyme, I must admit I was disheartened-'here comes another Games Developer who thinks he can write'-but after reading Fires of War in the Heroes anthology, I must admit I was mightily impressed, and the books were epic too. 4. Horus Rising and Galaxy in Flames: Awesome. 5. The Ultramarines Novels: McNeill FILLII VLTRAMARI EST ET MILITE IMPERATOR-DEII-(McNeill is a son of Ultramar and a soldier of the God-Imperator-Latin has no letter 'U' or 'J') 6. Fifteen Hours: All Quiet on the Cadian Front anyone? 7. Lord of the Night and Fulgrim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Well, the Emperor could probably have cited a more mediocre Legion as an example for Lorgar to aspire to. It was perhaps a bit unfair to expect him to measure up to the Ultramarines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 BURN THE CODEX, OR USE IT FOR OTHER PURPOSES (I hear it is very absorbent) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 If you're going to make people stop worshipping gods, the first thing you have to do is kill the gods. If you don't do that, you're doomed to failure. Well, perhaps that was what the Emperor had in mind? We know that he was working on a human webway which would have removed humanities reliance on the warp for travel and ergo their exposure to it. The efforts the chaos gods went through to scupper his plans indicate that at the very least they were deeply concerned by his actions, so who will ever know what plans the Emperor had to deal with chaotic influence? My thoughts are that human beings and their culture were not prepared for the dangers inherent in knowledge of the warp. In the same way that a protective parent might seek to shield their children from exposure to harmful elements, perhaps the Emperor sought to protect humanity from the insanity of the warp, until he could discover a way to deal with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 If you're going to make people stop worshipping gods, the first thing you have to do is kill the gods. If you don't do that, you're doomed to failure. Well, perhaps that was what the Emperor had in mind? He may well have been, but my point is that he told Lorgar to stop worshipping before destroying/removing all the possible objects of his worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 BURN THE CODEX, OR USE IT FOR OTHER PURPOSES (I hear it is very absorbent) Bartimeus reference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 @brother captain alecto: i hate to use the ultramarines as a example, but in this specific case i had to, as that was where the quote came from. and i think pac hit the nail on the head. had the Emperor finished the imperial webgate, he could have removed the use of psykers from the Imperium. effectively denying the chaos gods their main source of invitation to the material realm. hell, maybe the Emperor planned to use the webgate to actively wage war on the Chaos gods in their own turf (which i find far fetched, but thought it worth mentioning) WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted January 26, 2010 Share Posted January 26, 2010 Fair. Oh well, here come: Lives of the Primarchs, Episode 2 Sanguinius's School Report Scholam Primarchs Emperor (yells): SANG! Sanguinius (admiring Mersadie Oliton through the window):Wha..yeah Emperor: Throne of Me! You can say goodbye to sunshine, sunshine you are grrrounded! We are gonna revise my way now you hear me! The gravy train has terminated! Terminated you lazy bone-idle little :cuss Malcador (shocked):Sire! Emperor: Right. (jabs Sanguinius) Drama. Battle barge. Coursework. :cuss perfection. Or else. Sanguinius: Why are you talking in very short sentences? Emperor: (sweeps arm up): EMPHASIS. Drama. :cuss off! Later on, Sanguinius's Bedroom. Sanguinius is revising. Sanguinius turns on his telly. Emperor (bursting in) :Right! (disconnects telly and picks it up) No telly! (disconnects stereo, and picks it) No stereo! (finds Sanguinius's hidden stash of Playmarines, picks one up and looks at it,) No Eldar boobie fun! That should be enough to help you concentrate, now is it? (Exit Emperor, suddenly, lots of bashing and crashing is hear off stage) Malcador (unseen):What's that? Emperor: I've fallen down the :cuss stairs you silly cow! Later. Sanguinius and Horus alone in Sanguinius's bedroom. Both smoking joints: Emperor heard coming up stairs. Horus: :cuss, hide 'em Emperor: You better be doing some :cuss work (tails off)....Hey Horus (sniffs). Wait, wait, now whats that....You've been smoking doobies again haven't you! Horus: Well, we were- Sanguinius: (cutting across him) it was me, just me. Emperor: Right, you (points at Horus) :cuss off! Horus: Bye Sang (exits) Emperor: WHERE DID YOU GET THIS THIS STUFF, Sanguinius: Well, where I always get it, Both: Angron --- Oh, and I just heard, they are reprinting Space Marine for a limited time only! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 Fair. Oh well, here come: Lives of the Primarchs, Episode 2 Sanguinius's School Report Scholam Primarchs Emperor (yells): SANG! Sanguinius (admiring Mersadie Oliton through the window):Wha..yeah Emperor: Throne of Me! You can say goodbye to sunshine, sunshine you are grrrounded! We are gonna revise my way now you hear me! The gravy train has terminated! Terminated you lazy bone-idle little :cuss Malcador (shocked):Sire! Emperor: Right. (jabs Sanguinius) Drama. Battle barge. Coursework. :cuss perfection. Or else. Sanguinius: Why are you talking in very short sentences? Emperor: (sweeps arm up): EMPHASIS. Drama. :cuss off! Later on, Sanguinius's Bedroom. Sanguinius is revising. Sanguinius turns on his telly. Emperor (bursting in) :Right! (disconnects telly and picks it up) No telly! (disconnects stereo, and picks it) No stereo! (finds Sanguinius's hidden stash of Playmarines, picks one up and looks at it,) No Eldar boobie fun! That should be enough to help you concentrate, now is it? (Exit Emperor, suddenly, lots of bashing and crashing is hear off stage) Malcador (unseen):What's that? Emperor: I've fallen down the :cuss stairs you silly cow! Later. Sanguinius and Horus alone in Sanguinius's bedroom. Both smoking joints: Emperor heard coming up stairs. Horus: :cuss, hide 'em Emperor: You better be doing some :cuss work (tails off)....Hey Horus (sniffs). Wait, wait, now whats that....You've been smoking doobies again haven't you! Horus: Well, we were- Sanguinius: (cutting across him) it was me, just me. Emperor: Right, you (points at Horus) :cuss off! Horus: Bye Sang (exits) Emperor: WHERE DID YOU GET THIS THIS STUFF, Sanguinius: Well, where I always get it, Both: Angron --- Oh, and I just heard, they are reprinting Space Marine for a limited time only! great stuff!!! always makes me laugh! are they really doing a reprint? :cuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 I just love the idea of the primarchs as kids (in a non paedophillic way: 'But I don't wanna play baseball with Sanguinius, he always wins!' (Sanguinius flies up in air and catches whole team out) Actually, the primarchs as schoolkids: 1. Rogal Dorn: The normal boy who is good at everything but fantastic at nothing 2. Magnus: The nerdy boy with the wierd birthmark that everyone teases him about 3. Konrad Curze: The emo one that no-one really likes, but who has lots of older friends outside of school. He has one of those wierd emo fringes. 4. Lorgar: The religious one that everyone teases about his god not existing. Has a lisp. 5. Fulgrim:The arch-jock. Narcissistic and hated by everyone lower in the social order of the school. 6. Ferrus Mannus: The boy who is really good at IT, but has learning difficulties that cause him to lash out very easily 7. Angron: The angriest boy in the school. Very badly behaved. Is on last warning from the Headmistress (Malcador) 8. Mortarion: One of those people that everyone likes. Is best friends with... 9. Horus: Popular, good-looking and good at everything. Has a dark drinks and drugs side though. 10. Perturabo: Strange boy. Good at engineering, but just...a bit weird 11. Corax: The junky boy. Always high on something. 12. Vulkan: The cool black kid that everyone likes. 13. Sanguinius: The nice guy, universally liked, but thick as mince. Good at baseball though. 14. Jaghatai Khan: The rich kid who is brilliant at riding horses. 15. Leman Russ: The delinquent who doesn't attend school, but mugs people when they leave 16. The Lion: The boy who spends all his time in the gym 17. Roboute Gulliman: Spends far too much time revising for exams 18. Alpharius: One of the irritating pair of twins who keep... 19. Omegon:...complete each others sentences Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Librarian Hesperos Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 Every chaos legion, excluding the Alpha Legion and the Thousand Sons, are a disappointment. They fell. Seriously though brothers, no chapter acted in a way that would shame their character, they are all exceeding chapters, except the Smurfs cause i detest poster boys, not their fault though. I can not say i am dissapointed for, the emperor was a little off his A-game with his adamant Secular Truth, no one was ready for chaos to come a knocking, the space wolves are the way they are because it is the anti chaos, the dark angels were split cause the planet with half their legion was tainted by chaos, the blood angels will not give into their weakness. They are all very strong chapters, the legion will always hold strong, the real question should be which Successor let you down. just my thoguhts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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