Marshal Wilhelm Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 and i just want to say, i have NEVER heard of the Salamanders or vulkan being white. everything up till the 5th ed Marine codex has them being African black. then somebody made the mistake of letting matt ward touch a codex, and now they are coal black with red eyes...by the emperor i hate that man. WLK Can you remember when Vulkan first IS described as being black? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Hmm I can't remember where and when I read it but.. in my own mind, its always been a given? The few Salamanders armies I have had marines with 'racially-black' skin, not coal black and not white. Something you tend to remember as you don't see that many armies like it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 and i just want to say, i have NEVER heard of the Salamanders or vulkan being white. everything up till the 5th ed Marine codex has them being African black. then somebody made the mistake of letting matt ward touch a codex, and now they are coal black with red eyes...by the emperor i hate that man. WLK Can you remember when Vulkan first IS described as being black? i would love to say yes, but i am coming up with a blank at the moment. and i cannot find my IA books so this is really going to annoy me. what i find really funny is the more i think of it, i always thought of him as black. maybe the painted figs lent me this idea, but i would swear up and down his is of a black skin color. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 There is nothing in the IA article about it unfortunately! Does anyone know if there is any kind of quote in Galaxy in Flames or False Gods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 There is nothing in the IA article about it unfortunately! Does anyone know if there is any kind of quote in Galaxy in Flames or False Gods? In Fulgrim, pg 454, 'Vulkan's skin was dark and swarthy'. So he is dark and swarthy now. I don't think he ever was though. As I said in my earlier post, every IS white unless otherwise stated. I believe Vulkan and the Salamanders being brown/black is something GW has inserted sometime along the line. I don't think he started out being anything but white. *Of course, I will yield to ret-conning even if something isn't how I grew up with it. Vulkan is black now and that is good enough for me ;) . But as a mental exercise, I would be surprised if Vulkan can be shown as not white in the earliest stuff ~ that isn't meant to come across as arrogant :wacko: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 It seemed I got pwned... sort of. The general idea I got was that you got where I was coming from, and that it would be a viable idea, but I was still wrong. Its too bad I can't find where the heck I read the info on it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Lysander Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 Hmm, in following up to what I've written before, the legion I feel sorry for the most has to be the Emperor's Children: their primarch was misled by a daemon of Slaanesh, only to crave oblivion: which ended in him being possessed by a demon who delights in his tormenting cries. SPOILER: Horus said in Fulgrim he wished to free him from the daemon's influence as soon as possible, which was possibly after a victory in the Battle of Terra. This plan failed when he ultimately died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 It seemed I got pwned... sort of. The general idea I got was that you got where I was coming from, and that it would be a viable idea, but I was still wrong. Its too bad I can't find where the heck I read the info on it though. In the IA:Sals article in WD 249 (Aussie ed.) there are photos of a Salamanders army. Of Marines without helmets there are; 8 White 3 Brown. The whole brown (and then jet black with red eyes :P ) Salamanders thing is a retcon. What you said may be wrong today, but I don't think it was yesterday, so to speak. Hmm, in following up to what I've written before, the legion I feel sorry for the most has to be the Emperor's Children: their primarch was misled by a daemon of Slaanesh, only to crave oblivion: which ended in him being possessed by a demon who delights in his tormenting cries. SPOILER: Horus said in Fulgrim he wished to free him from the daemon's influence as soon as possible, which was possibly after a victory in the Battle of Terra. This plan failed when he ultimately died. He deserved it. Seriously though, that is horrific. McNeil is not a super smooth writer like Abnett, but he did do a good job of detailing Fulgrim (even though I found the book a bit jerky in places and suffering from sessions of OTT from him) I have read False Gods and like Fulgrim more. So far (from the two of his I have read) it is his best piece. This is about 'Fulgrim' ~ don't read it if you haven't read it! I loved how Fulgrim had the moment of lucidity about Ferrus and that he had been a good brother to Fulgrim. How horrific is the daemon? Liars and truth twisters all the way. It feels like it actually cares for Fulgrim (though we know better) and then tricks him. I actually have compassion for Fulgrim, even though he brought the disaster to pass. Forever is a mighty long time to be trapped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhammidarigaaz Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 I hope that this hasn't been mentioned (I skimmed through much of this long thread), but I just wanted to give a little support to the Wolves of Fenris. They seem to be catching a lot of flak for not making it to Terra for the climax of the Heresy. I'll say two things in their defense: 1) The Emperor's ultimate plan may very well turn out to be of a wider scope than the Heresy-era... Russ plans to be back for the Wolftime. 2) Perhaps the Wolves (in terms of Prospero and the Thousand Sons) were always right where they were meant to be. We'll have to wait and see just how the HH books depict the time frame between the burning of Prospero and the Siege of Terra. Loosely quoting Mr. Abnett (the grandmaster of 40K fiction) in the A Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns trailer: "Space marines are inherently tough, but Space Wolves are particularly dangerous. They are ruthless. They are savage. They are brutal. It begs the question: why would the Emperor permit something quite so dangerous and untamed to exist? And that would be: to take down another legion." (Emphasis his) Tell me that isn't fairly intense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 2) Perhaps the Wolves (in terms of Prospero and the Thousand Sons) were always right where they were meant to be. We'll have to wait and see just how the HH books depict the time frame between the burning of Prospero and the Siege of Terra. Loosely quoting Mr. Abnett (the grandmaster of 40K fiction) in the A Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns trailer: "Space marines are inherently tough, but Space Wolves are particularly dangerous. They are ruthless. They are savage. They are brutal. It begs the question: why would the Emperor permit something quite so dangerous and untamed to exist? And that would be: to take down another legion." (Emphasis his) Tell me that isn't fairly intense. That isn't fairly intense.. But it is intriguing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 While that may be an interresting thought, it is not exactly like the Emperor was planning for Leman Russ's incubator capsule to land on Fenris and for his gene-seed to mutate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 I think the point is that he did nothing about it when it happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 That quote from Abnett just drove home my inability to understand why people like him so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 I think the point is that he did nothing about it when it happened. Neither did he do anything about the red skinned, one eyed giant with strong psychic abilities. I think the one with the enlarged fangs is not the most excentric of the Primarchs. Edit: Abnett is great when he writes about the Imperial Guard. I have not read any of his Space Marine books, but from what I hear he has his own ideas about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 I like the idea of a 'ace-in-the-whole' legion. But I don't think the Emperor planned on the Space Wolves being the way they were from the get go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piousservant Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 I hope that this hasn't been mentioned (I skimmed through much of this long thread), but I just wanted to give a little support to the Wolves of Fenris. They seem to be catching a lot of flak for not making it to Terra for the climax of the Heresy. I'll say two things in their defense: 1) The Emperor's ultimate plan may very well turn out to be of a wider scope than the Heresy-era... Russ plans to be back for the Wolftime. 2) Perhaps the Wolves (in terms of Prospero and the Thousand Sons) were always right where they were meant to be. We'll have to wait and see just how the HH books depict the time frame between the burning of Prospero and the Siege of Terra. Loosely quoting Mr. Abnett (the grandmaster of 40K fiction) in the A Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns trailer: "Space marines are inherently tough, but Space Wolves are particularly dangerous. They are ruthless. They are savage. They are brutal. It begs the question: why would the Emperor permit something quite so dangerous and untamed to exist? And that would be: to take down another legion." (Emphasis his) Tell me that isn't fairly intense. I'm really, really, hoping that they don't end up writing it that way. It doesn't make much sense with the existing background IMO, well it directly contradicts what the earlier Heresy books have established, that it was Horus who goaded Russ into destroying the Thousand Sons, whereas the Emperor wanted Russ to return Magnus to Terra. And I find it a little silly - since when (and why?) are the Wolves that much more "uber" than the other Legions? All the Legions have their various strengths/weaknesses so you could whip out something vaguely similar for most of them... "Space marines are inherently tough, but Night Lords are particularly dangerous. They are ruthless. They are savage. They are brutal. It begs the question: why would the Emperor permit something quite so dangerous and untamed to exist? And that would be: to take down another legion." Fits still, doesn't it? If anything, in the existing background the Emperors most likely anti-Astartes forces would be the Custodes who are known to be even stronger and more powerful than the Astartes. And who just happen to be the Emperors bodyguard (Guarding the Emperor from what, after all...?)... Seriously hoping that Abnett was just deliberately being misleading... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 Well he has said previously that he wanted to add some extra depth to the Space Wolves, beyond just the 'belching, drinking, vikings in space'. Personally I think that anything which adds a little bit of character to the Primarchs or the motives of the Emperor can only be a good thing. After all, they are writing an entire series of books about the Heresy and we have already had a fair share of surprises! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherMoses Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 I think most people sound disappointed with the "legions" more because of some disfunction with the primarchs. Something I've really enjoyed about the HH novels is the "humanizing" of the primarchs. These aren't infallible altruistic beings here. The primarchs, while superhuman, were still human. They had needs and desires and actual depth. I'm not going to complain about depth of character. A moment I remember from the first HH novels was when Horus basically asks, "What are we going to do when we're done?" He was actually worried about having a place in the universe. It made me wonder the same thing. I will say that my least favorite legion would probably be the Iron Warriors, more because of their role of combat than anything else. I don't believe ANY space marine chapter should have had the specialty of long trench style warfare. Space marines are suppossed to get it done and in a jiffy, not sit back drinking tea while basilisks slowly chip away at the defenders. Maybe I would like them if I could see them fleshed out more(bionics joke ;) ), but they seem kind of silly as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 Well, thats partly down to a change in role for Marines inbetween the 31st and 41st millenium. Yes, they were still very much assault orientated, but there were just so many of them that they fulfilled all kind of battlefield roles that a modern Chapter just can't afford. They are only ever going to be the tip of the spear. So, the 'trench-warfare seige' part of warfare is in the current timeline carried out by the Imperial Guard, but I'd put money on the fact that the marines back during the crusade were a damn lot better at it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhammidarigaaz Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 I'm really, really, hoping that they don't end up writing it that way. It doesn't make much sense with the existing background IMO, well it directly contradicts what the earlier Heresy books have established, that it was Horus who goaded Russ into destroying the Thousand Sons, whereas the Emperor wanted Russ to return Magnus to Terra. And I find it a little silly - since when (and why?) are the Wolves that much more "uber" than the other Legions? All the Legions have their various strengths/weaknesses so you could whip out something vaguely similar for most of them... "Space marines are inherently tough, but Night Lords are particularly dangerous. They are ruthless. They are savage. They are brutal. It begs the question: why would the Emperor permit something quite so dangerous and untamed to exist? And that would be: to take down another legion." Fits still, doesn't it? If anything, in the existing background the Emperors most likely anti-Astartes forces would be the Custodes who are known to be even stronger and more powerful than the Astartes. And who just happen to be the Emperors bodyguard (Guarding the Emperor from what, after all...?)... Seriously hoping that Abnett was just deliberately being misleading... I can't speak for Mr. Abnett, but I think that you might be misconstruing what he said. Just because he suggests that the Wolves might have been, at least in part, structured or intended with a thought to facing another legion doesn't make it "that much more 'uber' than the other legions." That kind of rhetorical hyperbole is effective, but a little silly. If I'm going to eat a bowl of cereal, I favor a spoon over a leaf blower... does that make the spoon more uber than the leaf blower? Of course not; that makes little sense. You seem to think that what Abnett said means that the Wolves are better warriors than marines of other legions. This need not be the case at all. Perhaps the particular culture/structure of the Space Wolves makes it such that they can be ordered to take action against another legion, and do so in a unified and fully applied way (no Garviel Lokens in the Space Wolves). This would make them particularly useful in facing another loyal (not loyalist, but loyal) legion without the risk of internal fracturing. I'm not saying this is what he meant, but it's just a suggestion. Secondly, I don't think the quote fits any legion, as you suggest. The last line may just be a matter of fact; a predication that just happens to be true only of the Wolves. Are the Night Lords, insofar as they are a loyal legion particularly dangerous as loyal space marines? Perhaps, I leave such characterizations to you. I think it fair to say of the Wolves, in their capacity as a loyal chapter during the Great Crusade (before any heresy), that they are particularly dangerous, ruthless, savage, and brutal among those of the various legions. To be fair, it doesn't say that they are the most dangerous/etc (though this may be the implication). Just a thought on interpretation. As to which legion disappointed me the most... probably the Emperor's Children for reasons that have been oft repeated in this thread... evil magic swords, noise marines, Fulgrim (both the book and the Primarch)... fairly epic fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 Very well said there sir, I too got that as an implication from what Mr. Abnett was saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Proteus Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 The Dark Angels and the Ultramarines actually disappoint me. Maybe its becuase of the way things are being written in the books, versus what we've always had to work with. These could also be because of the drawbacks of the primarchs. For being so tactically astute, the Lion sure was quick to go fight...as far from Terra, and with as little force as possible. Think if the "calibanite" dark angels had been loyalist! That close to Terra, they couldve come to the defense much faster, even if the Lion had to show up late. The Ultramarines just annoy me because they allowed themselves to get completley tied up by the Word Bearers. I've always been a fan of the good guys, in any universe. But it seems to me that this storyline makes the baddies the guys to be, and the good guys are only good because they suffer and fall at every turn. -Proteus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LorgarXVII17 Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 The legion I was most disappointed with....hmm....thats a tough one, so ill just do them all 1. Dark Angels- Eh, didnt care for them too much. 3. Emperors Children- I was very unhappy with them. I really enjoyed reading about them in Horus Rising and seeing them as defenders of Humanity, then to see them fall so easy was very disappointing. 4. Iron Warrios- Once again, never really cared for them. They dont seem to be very important. I can hardly remember reading about them. 5. White Scars- Again, a legion I dont remember much of, but they defended Terra and the Khan was pretty cool. 6. Space Wolves- Liked these guys. Very fun. 7. Imperial Fists- I liked Dorn and the Fists. 8. Night Lords- Didnt really care for them too much, and I still dont understand why they turned traitor... 9. Blood Angels- I liked Sanguinius and his angels. I was sad when he died...I almost cried (No, really) 10. Iron Hands- I must say, after reading Fulgrim I actually respect them much more. I was slightly disappointed when Ferrus died... 12. Word Eaters- I never really liked them, but Khârn was cool. 13. Ultramarines- Dont really like them too much. Im not Ultrahating, I just never did like them. I dont hate them, but they seem rather dull to me. 14. Death Guard- Like many other people here, I was disappointed with them and Mortarion. 15. Thousand Sons- I like them, though I never really liked Magnus. I feel sorry for them, in a way. 16. Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus- I liked them at first, but as the series went on I found myself becoming bored with them. 17. Word Bearers- Beasts. Started the whole heresy. The irony of the whole situation is great. 18. Salamanders- I dont remember much about them, but I didnt like the whole dropsite massacre thing. 19. Raven Guard- Same as the Salamanders 20. Alpha Legion- After legion, I became very interested in them. They didnt disappoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Chaplain Gaius Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 the chapter that dissapointed me the most was the Ultramarines, because now im stuck listening to people remind me that we took the day off when Terra needed us. FOR EMPERORS SAKE the galaxy is a big place, whew! and the salamanders being black is something of a ongoing joke amongst my circle of friends, we game with my friend who's of african american descent and guess what? he rolls with a Salamanders army painted appropriately. good for him ya know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Kaelgrim Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 What really disappointed me was how the Thousand Sons went down. Really cool legion, neat look to em, neat background, and yet they have to fall to Chaos due to deception and prejudice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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