Dosjetka Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 I was really disappointed by Fulgrim and his legion for obvious reasons...weak fools! :) BBL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 What really disappointed me was how the Thousand Sons went down. Really cool legion, neat look to em, neat background, and yet they have to fall to Chaos due to deception and prejudice. or what happens when you practice sorcery against the Emperor's wishes. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Kaelgrim Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Well we will never know what the Emperor's ultimate decision concerning Magnus would have been, due to Horus' treachery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Well we will never know what the Emperor's ultimate decision concerning Magnus would have been, due to Horus' treachery. actually, he made his final descision quite clear in the Collected Visions account of the Council of Nikea, where he promises Magnus to visist destruction upon him and his legion if he continues practicing sorcery... magnus ignores this, contines practicing sorcery. so yea, looks like the Emperor made a decision on Magnus (cause lets be honest, sending russ of all primarchs to collect magnus say to me "either come dead or come alive, it matters not") WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Yes, the Emperor warn Magnus at the Council of Nikeae, something along the lines of "Continue this, and I will visit destruction upon your Legion and you will be struck from the Imperial Records". Magnus carried on anyway, then managed to wreck the Emperor's plans on earth for the webway with his spell, the Emperor was only ever going to react in one way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piousservant Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Except, the end of False Gods (I think?), shows that the Emperor orders Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra. It is Horus who convinces Russ to attack and destroy the Thousand Sons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Mordeus Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 I think just sending Russ is a death warrant, even if the Emperor originaly asked him to bring Magnus back. Horus might have influenced the actual order, for i believe that in Russ's mind, death was the only solution. He hated Magnus. Plus, the psychich spear sent by Magnus destroyed the Emperor's chances of creating the Human Webway, which really pisses off the Emperor, even though Magnus thought he was doing good. Magnus has been a pawn of Tzeentch for a long time, way before the start of the heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gil galed Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 having just finished false gods i'd have to say Magnus, although he doesn't dissapoint me per say, its just that he is such an awesome character and put so much effort into saving the imperium and especially horus but ultimately fell due to his inability to except that the Emperor was probably right about practicing sorcery I'm slightly coloured by rise of the tau in which magnus is an awesome (and ultimately loyal) primarch imo he was only with horus because of some future thing he saw in which the 1k sons would be able to help the the Emperor once more quick question: the vision in false gods where horus sees the emperor thinking about whether or not to stop the primarchs being taken by choas and scattered or not, and decides to let it happen, real or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piousservant Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 I think just sending Russ is a death warrant, even if the Emperor originaly asked him to bring Magnus back. Horus might have influenced the actual order, for i believe that in Russ's mind, death was the only solution. He hated Magnus. Plus, the psychich spear sent by Magnus destroyed the Emperor's chances of creating the Human Webway, which really pisses off the Emperor, even though Magnus thought he was doing good. Magnus has been a pawn of Tzeentch for a long time, way before the start of the heresy. Yeah, Magnus was certainly a pawn of Tzeentch for a long time - but he was acting with the best of intentions and as far as he was aware he was trying to help the Emperor and the Imperium. I have admit that Magnus is one of my favourite Primarchs, because his fall is so tragic (and unnecessary). Which is why I think who disappointed me most is not one of the Legions, but the Emperor himself. Though the Traitor Primarchs are responsible for their own actions, in a number of cases it was the Emperors failure to lead and communicate with them which brought about the circumstances of their downfall. I don't really understand why the "Imperial Webway" project was kept secret even from the Primarchs, in fact it may well have benefited the Emperor to involve Magnus in particular - bringing another powerful psyker in and also giving Magnus an alternative area of study to that sorcery. Actually, the Emperors whole approach to other psykers (and especially Magnus - his own son) to me doesn't make much sense. One has to say, and sending Russ as you suggest maybe makes sense with this, that the Emperors poor handling of the Primarchs suggests either his inability to understand their (very human) feelings becuase he has transcended such things, or that the Heresy was at least to some extent a part of his design or something that he at least knew would occur and manipulated. And if that were true it would suggest that the current Imperium - itself a stark contrast to the (somewhat) utopic Imperium of the pre-Heresy - was the Emperors real intention all along. Which makes him a whole lot less sympathetic a figure than he is already... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 Piousservant's eloquence neatly encapsulates my own view of the Emperor. Though he left out the third explanation, which is a degree of arrogance so massive that it is impossible to conceive of someone doing other than what he has told them. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gil galed Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 it's a good point, but I always think its a dangerous road to start blaming the Emperor for the outcome, if he really did have forsight then surely this outcome would have had to be the best for the galaxy, if not then the Emperor cannot be considered good but must be considered mad or bad. But then again perhaps you're right, the Emperor is like Dr.Manhattan from watchmen, his apotheosis is at such a level where he truly is a god who doesn't understand humanity anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 quick question: the vision in false gods where horus sees the emperor thinking about whether or not to stop the primarchs being taken by choas and scattered or not, and decides to let it happen, real or not? The whole vision is orchestrated by Erebus, so I'd say no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piousservant Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 Piousservant's eloquence neatly encapsulates my own view of the Emperor. Though he left out the third explanation, which is a degree of arrogance so massive that it is impossible to conceive of someone doing other than what he has told them. :rolleyes: Why thank you. Heh, I guess that's the least sympathetic view of the Emperor... Though it also makes sense. Since he is so sure that what he is doing is the right thing, why would anyone disagree with him? I do think that the first explanation and the third are similar - the Emperor is without question god-like in power and functionally immortal (as far as we know), his comprehension of the universe is vastly different from all those around him - something much like Dr Manhattan, like Gil Galed says. Although the Emperor, unlike Manhattan, is not so far removed from Humanity as to have no interest in its fate (unless Erebus was telling the truth and the Emperor was purely embarked on a selfish quest for more power) which suggests that he is not entirely removed from understanding humanity. I've always liked the view that he is similar to Leto II, the God-Emperor of Dune, making a terrible sacrifice necessary for the survivial of humanity. Having said that, I'm also fond of the idea that he couldn't understand the too human weaknesses of his demi-God Primarchs and so failed to see the seeds of discontent which the Heresy would erupt from. I guess I like the second more because it suggests the Emperor is not perfect and that his great power brings its own weaknesses. it's a good point, but I always think its a dangerous road to start blaming the Emperor for the outcome, if he really did have forsight then surely this outcome would have had to be the best for the galaxy, if not then the Emperor cannot be considered good but must be considered mad or bad. Well there is that. Certainly there is a possibly that he is mad, bad and dangerous to know. I guess it's difficult to imagine why the dysotopic Imperium we know and love would be better for the future of humanity than the pre-heresy Imperium... The question of foresight is a difficult one but I personally would imagine that the Emperor would be aware of the limitations of prescience. That and his inability to realise that his sons, who had been raised on (mostly) human worlds, all had human weaknesses (apart from Sanguinius perhaps which is why he sould have been Warmaster but that's a different question altogether...). With reference to Magnus, rather than just saying "NO, sorcery = bad" the Emperor should have taken Magnus under his wing and tutored him in what the Emperor knew, explained the truth about Chaos (like I said, it seems odd that it is better for the Primarchs and Magnus as a psyker in particular, to remain ignorant of what the Emperor knows about the warp. Either that or he has a big sense of entitlement and no wish to share...). The whole vision is orchestrated by Erebus, so I'd say no. Well... The vision does show Horus the truth about the future - the dystopian Imperium where Horus has been forgotten - it's just that future happens to be the potential future if he falls (overly obvious irony/tragedy perhaps). So I do wonder if there is a degree of truth in what the vision shows of the Primarchs beginnings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 My biggest dispaointment so far has been all the Primarchs I have read about, all the ones that turned traiter and some loyalist ones like Lional. They all seem so stupid at times and petty its incredible that the emp trusted humaities future in these petulant childrens hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 My biggest dispaointment so far has been all the Primarchs I have read about, all the ones that turned traiter and some loyalist ones like Lional. They all seem so stupid at times and petty its incredible that the emp trusted humaities future in these petulant childrens hands I say we make El'Johnson be refered to from here on in as Lionel, making him a popular entertainer :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 quick question: the vision in false gods where horus sees the emperor thinking about whether or not to stop the primarchs being taken by choas and scattered or not, and decides to let it happen, real or not? No idea, but I think what's key about that vision is that it's plausible. The Emperor could well have done that - it would certainly fit in with the ruthless pragmatism we've been seeing of late. Well... The vision does show Horus the truth about the future - the dystopian Imperium where Horus has been forgotten - it's just that future happens to be the potential future if he falls (overly obvious irony/tragedy perhaps). So I do wonder if there is a degree of truth in what the vision shows of the Primarchs beginnings... IMO, I think it could work along a similar line to Tolkien's Palantirs - it shows you the truth but encourages you to draw the wrong conclusion from it. In this case Horus is shown the truth, but in such a way that it encourages him to believe that intervening will stop this future from happening, rather than making it come true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 I'm pretty sure, back in the depths of this thread, that I said i was most disappointed by Fulgrim.. But really, El'Johnson and his entire Legion are very disappointing. That El'Johnson was so charismatic that the man who was like a brother to him, Luther, betrayed him? Yeah.... In fairness though, from what we've seen so far are they not all disappointing in one way or another? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 That El'Johnson was so charismatic (...) I guess that's what growing up all on your own in the wilderness will do to you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 quick question: the vision in false gods where horus sees the emperor thinking about whether or not to stop the primarchs being taken by choas and scattered or not, and decides to let it happen, real or not? No idea, but I think what's key about that vision is that it's plausible. The Emperor could well have done that - it would certainly fit in with the ruthless pragmatism we've been seeing of late. Well... The vision does show Horus the truth about the future - the dystopian Imperium where Horus has been forgotten - it's just that future happens to be the potential future if he falls (overly obvious irony/tragedy perhaps). So I do wonder if there is a degree of truth in what the vision shows of the Primarchs beginnings... IMO, I think it could work along a similar line to Tolkien's Palantirs - it shows you the truth but encourages you to draw the wrong conclusion from it. In this case Horus is shown the truth, but in such a way that it encourages him to believe that intervening will stop this future from happening, rather than making it come true. Uh-oh. Oh no. No way. This can't be happening. I actually agree with Grand Master Tyrak has said. Touche big man. Touche (* Screams 'Noooooo!' and spontaneously combusts) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 That El'Johnson was so charismatic (...) I guess that's what growing up all on your own in the wilderness will do to you... But thas the thing, the Primarchs were supposed to have this natural charisma as part of who they are.. or am I reading too far into things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 That El'Johnson was so charismatic (...) I guess that's what growing up all on your own in the wilderness will do to you... But thas the thing, the Primarchs were supposed to have this natural charisma as part of who they are.. or am I reading too far into things? Yes and no. The reason I say this is the primarchs like Curze and Alpharius weren't all into charisma. But you aren't reading far enough in, actually. They had support for different reasons; they're respective legions were like their sons. They wielded absolute authority, and were excellent tacticians. They had all these things that no mortal could match. Hence Chaos corrupting Luther, his closest brother, whom he rejected for no other reason than his own jealousy and pettiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 That El'Johnson was so charismatic (...) I guess that's what growing up all on your own in the wilderness will do to you... But thas the thing, the Primarchs were supposed to have this natural charisma as part of who they are.. or am I reading too far into things? Yes and no. The reason I say this is the primarchs like Curze and Alpharius weren't all into charisma. But that doesnt mean they didnt have natural charisma, maybe they just chose not to exert it or it didnt manifest in a usual way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 That El'Johnson was so charismatic (...) I guess that's what growing up all on your own in the wilderness will do to you... But thas the thing, the Primarchs were supposed to have this natural charisma as part of who they are.. or am I reading too far into things? Yes and no. The reason I say this is the primarchs like Curze and Alpharius weren't all into charisma. But that doesnt mean they didnt have natural charisma, maybe they just chose not to exert it or it didnt manifest in a usual way! Well, those reasons and the fact that their natural 'stick to the shadows' mindset/lifestyle/whatever counteractted that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 To be honest, about the TkSons, if they were truly loyal, then they would not have joined Horus, and that is the end of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 To be honest, about the TkSons, if they were truly loyal, then they would not have joined Horus, and that is the end of it. You are missing the point I feel sir, the Thousands Sons were as loyal as they could be until itwas no longer possible. Horus contributed to the downfall of Magnus when he ordered Russ to basically truss him up forthe Emperor, so for his own survival Magnus had no choice. You may as well say that the Alpha Legion were never loyal as well, when in fact it was their loyalty that caused them to turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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