Which Legion dissapointed you the most?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

just to disagree on alpharius's charisma, i would say he had it by the boat-loads...just ask any of his agents.

 

WLK

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

You know, now that I think about it, why DIDN'T the Emperor teach Magnus? Then he would have had a powerful and loyal psyker, leading a whole legion of psykers, who were well aware of the dangers of Chaos and could fight it..........oh wait he must have learned that lesson post heresy (Grey Knights).

 

One kind of wonders if

 

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

 

John Grammaticus in Legion has the chance to see into the Emperor's mind at one point. What he saw there horrified him, though why is left a bit up in the air. I wonder how accurate John's experience is and whether the Emperor really had some darker agenda in mind or something.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

You know, now that I think about it, why DIDN'T the Emperor teach Magnus? Then he would have had a powerful and loyal psyker, leading a whole legion of psykers, who were well aware of the dangers of Chaos and could fight it..........oh wait he must have learned that lesson post heresy (Grey Knights).

 

One kind of wonders if

 

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

 

John Grammaticus in Legion has the chance to see into the Emperor's mind at one point. What he saw there horrified him, though why is left a bit up in the air. I wonder how accurate John's experience is and whether the Emperor really had some darker agenda in mind or something.

 

the emperor didnt survive to teach the Grey Knights anything...he was entombed on the Golden Throne immediately following the events on Horus's battle barge.

 

and he did teach magnus certain psychic practices, he just forbade him from using sorcery...the one thing the power hungry goon couldnt accomplish.

 

WLK

[Khairon]

SPACE WOLVES. To this day those bloodthirsty savages would sooner hack a book to pieces than try to read it because it didn't have any pictures. I am just commenting on backstory. In-game they are a great army and a strong force, it's just I've loved the act f learning since I was old enough to comprehend it. This means I may be prejudiced towards Thousand Sons, but I am proud of that fact. On the point of these guys, F$^%ING AHRIMAN HAD TO TURN THEM TO :lol: AUTOMATONS!!! DARN YOU AHRIMAN! DARN YOU TO... where does one darn a guy who already lives in hell to?

[Kanazuchi]

SPACE WOLVES. To this day those bloodthirsty savages would sooner hack a book to pieces than try to read it because it didn't have any pictures. I am just commenting on backstory. In-game they are a great army and a strong force, it's just I've loved the act f learning since I was old enough to comprehend it. This means I may be prejudiced towards Thousand Sons, but I am proud of that fact. On the point of these guys, F$^%ING AHRIMAN HAD TO TURN THEM TO :lol: AUTOMATONS!!! DARN YOU AHRIMAN! DARN YOU TO... where does one darn a guy who already lives in hell to?

 

You would prefer the 1000 Sons to transform into nothing more than mutated abominations like the Death Guard? I don't think you can blame Ahriman. His heart was in the right place...he was trying to save his legion. In the process, he doomed them all. That has to be a pretty heavy burden to bear. Remember, some of those soldiers had fought with Ahriman since the very beginning of the Legion (conjecture, I'm aware).

[Guillermus of Eisenheim]

It's a fairly common opinion, but I'd say that the Legion that most disappointed me was the Emperor's Children. They let pride get in the way of common sense, and their Legion suffered for it. Eidolon, for example, was an incompetent fool (remember on Murder: "Tarvitz, you bastard, how DARE you do something that's actually useful?!) and Fulgrim only chose him because he looked pretty. The only ones with any sense (Saul Tarvitz and Solomon Demeter) are treated like pariahs and eventually killed off for actually trying to be Astartes, instead of poncing around in togas and smothering themselves with perfume. /rant

 

 

And I know this'll be controversial, given the earlier posts, but I quite like the Space Wolves. The one in Battle for the Abyss felt like a real person; he liked to get drunk and have a laugh (and a fight) with his friends. I'm a Thousand Son at heart though. Get the hell off my sorcery!

[Legatus]

And I know this'll be controversial, given the earlier posts, but I quite like the Space Wolves.

That's not controversial at all. Try declaring that you like Ultramarines! :)

 

 

The one in Battle for the Abyss felt like a real person; he liked to get drunk and have a laugh (and a fight) with his friends.

That, however, might be a little controversial. While the not so serious fun side of the Space Wolves is... fun, it is absolutely not how Space Marines should behave. Even Space Wolves are indoctrinated and dedicated super warriors with no other purpose in their lives than to fight the enemies of mankind. But authors often get a little too playful with them.

[Guillermus of Eisenheim]

Good point. I get what you mean, and normally that sort of thing would annoy me, but it made an interesting change to see a Space Marine having fun. I imagine once I've read Prospero Burns I'll be sick of them, though I'm looking forward to meeting Russ.

[Pulse]

That, however, might be a little controversial. While the not so serious fun side of the Space Wolves is... fun, it is absolutely not how Space Marines should behave. Even Space Wolves are indoctrinated and dedicated super warriors with no other purpose in their lives than to fight the enemies of mankind. But authors often get a little too playful with them.

When have the Space Wolves ever been conventional? They have never gone to war in the same manner as any other chapter. They also have always fought and got drunk way back when they started to be described in detail. Yes they are superhuman but again that does not stop them having free time to do as they will. After all, a chapter is not on campaign all the time, and go for months and sometimes years before they actually make war.

[Legatus]

The warrior culture of the Space Wolves can also be taken more seriously, resulting in stern and professional warriors. I don't think the Codex or rulebook sources paint the Space Wolves as quite as jolly and joke cracking as they may be presented in the White Dwarfs or Black Library literature.

[Pulse]

I understand that, but their actual culture is that of the Northman (ie Vikings), and Vikings were exceptional on the field of battle (not unbeatable and sometimes rash) but when battle was joined you would be hard pressed to find better fighters as they loved, and actively sought battle but they also knew as a culture how to take a step back and enjoy other things other than making war.

[Wrath of Terra]

Which Legion disappointed me the most?;

 

Ultramarines. The largest legion doing :cuss all during the Heresy. Not entirely their own fault them sitting on their :cuss . But at the same time the way other legions fought and died for The Emperor and Humanity and helped win the day and Guilliman and the Ultras show up in the aftermath and demand every other chapter/legion straightjacket themselves by following their limited book or else there'll be war by the Ultras against them leaves a very bad taste in the mouth.

[Legatus]

If I told you that the other Legions weren't forced to adhere to the Codex Astartes doctrines, would that change your opinion of the Ultramarines and Guilliman?

 

Also, the Codex Astartes is an empowering element, not a limiting one (why else would Codex marines be the generalists, while the divergent Marines are usually focused on a specific type of warfare?), but that is another discussion.

 

And of course I too am a bit disappointed that the Ultramarines did not get to play an important role in the Heresy, but as you said, that was not their fault.

[Gree]

Ultramarines. The largest legion doing :cuss all during the Heresy.

 

Not quite true. They fought the Word Bearers at Calth despite the WB using nukes and daemons freely and destroyed onf of Horus's renforcement fleets.

 

But at the same time the way other legions fought and died for The Emperor and Humanity and helped win the day and Guilliman and the Ultras show up in the aftermath and demand every other chapter/legion straightjacket themselves by following their limited book or else there'll be war by the Ultras against them leaves a very bad taste in the mouth.

 

Again, incorrect. The Ultramarines did not just show up and ''demand'' anything. Guilliman was actually charged by the High Lords to begin the process according to Insignium Astartes, and held reviews with his brothers about the Codex as detailed in Battlefleet Gothic Adeptus Astartes. (Corax and the Blood Angels were among those who welcomed the Codex) In fact the real issue with Dorn and the other primarchs was the size of the Legions, not any tactical doctrine.

 

And even then that was only after Guilliman dispatched his legion into the field to fght and bleed in the Scouring.

 

Seconds of all, it was not a straightjacket. Indeed, the Index Astartes article for the Imperial Fists notes that they got to be more flexible and well-rounded because of the Codex, not the other way around.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

that response was faster than i expected...is there like a batsignal or something that alerts you boys in blue whenever anybody speaks poorly of you guys?

 

WLK

[Gree]

that response was faster than i expected...is there like a batsignal or something that alerts you boys in blue whenever anybody speaks poorly of you guys?

 

WLK

 

Nah, I just happened to stumble across it.

[Legatus]

I am allways happy to jump at the opportunity. :cuss I am only checking a few of the Forum sections, though. I hope I don't miss some serious Guilliman-bashing in the modelling section or something like that...

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Which Legion disappointed me the most?;

 

Ultramarines. The largest legion doing :( all during the Heresy. Not entirely their own fault them sitting on their :cuss . But at the same time the way other legions fought and died for The Emperor and Humanity and helped win the day and Guilliman and the Ultras show up in the aftermath and demand every other chapter/legion straightjacket themselves by following their limited book or else there'll be war by the Ultras against them leaves a very bad taste in the mouth.

 

When UM get their portion in the HH series, I think they will not have this same jonny come lately persona that people pick up on. It'll all get explained and people will go 'oh, they're not so annoying/whatever'

 

Hang on bro ;)

 

I think A D-B likes them, so they'll get positive coverage if he covers them.

 

If I told you that the other Legions weren't forced to adhere to the Codex Astartes doctrines, would that change your opinion of the Ultramarines and Guilliman?

 

Also, the Codex Astartes is an empowering element, not a limiting one (why else would Codex marines be the generalists, while the divergent Marines are usually focused on a specific type of warfare?), but that is another discussion.

 

And of course I too am a bit disappointed that the Ultramarines did not get to play an important role in the Heresy, but as you said, that was not their fault.

 

Ummm.

Whilst it wasn't a 'become Codex adherent or die', that the IF got shot at by the Navy for not wanting to shed numbers sours the Codex for many other people.

I know Numbers ≠ All Codex doctrine, but it still irritates people.

Also that UM don't play in a classic 40K sense ~ close combat, which is something that Chaos and Sapce Wolves do, is another reason people think Codex = Handicap.

So the fluff has failed to impact the TT in a way that gets most people thinking 'hmmm, pretty good'

 

Technically, following the Codex should make you amazing, if it is 10K+ years of wisdom. But on the TT, UM shoot [not very 40K] and then even run away when their soggy Tacticals get bashed by Boyz. Hardly a good wrap.

 

You should have chosen a better Chapter?.... :P

 

UM and IF get the most coverage for post-Heresy, so you'll have to live with Roboute shaping the Imperium instead. :)

[Gree]

Also that UM don't play in a classic 40K sense ~ close combat, which is something that Chaos and Sapce Wolves do, is another reason people think Codex = Handicap.

So the fluff has failed to impact the TT in a way that gets most people thinking 'hmmm, pretty good'

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. I've constructed CC armies using nothjing but the basic Codex list and I've done quite well for myself. Fluffwise the Ultramarines have their own share of CC specialists.

 

Technically, following the Codex should make you amazing, if it is 10K+ years of wisdom. But on the TT, UM shoot [not very 40K] and then even run away when their soggy Tacticals get bashed by Boyz. Hardly a good wrap.

 

Funny, that's not what happens when I play against orks. :(

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Gree: I had a batsignal for Russ, but i ran out of bulbs...now i try and let stuff fly.

 

WLK

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Also that UM don't play in a classic 40K sense ~ close combat, which is something that Chaos and Sapce Wolves do, is another reason people think Codex = Handicap.

So the fluff has failed to impact the TT in a way that gets most people thinking 'hmmm, pretty good'

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. I've constructed CC armies using nothjing but the basic Codex list and I've done quite well for myself. Fluffwise the Ultramarines have their own share of CC specialists.

Technically, following the Codex should make you amazing, if it is 10K+ years of wisdom. But on the TT, UM shoot [not very 40K] and then even run away when their soggy Tacticals get bashed by Boyz. Hardly a good wrap.

Funny, that's not what happens when I play against orks. :(

 

I'm saying that Wolves and Chaos do as well in shooting with bolters [GH no HW but SWx2] as Tacticals. Then they are as good as Assault Marines in close combat.

Having Rhinos makes them nearly as fast a Jumpers, and Rhinos increases their survivability muchly.

 

I won't disagree with you on the Specialists, but as for Troops and even Assault Marines, Codex Marines are not very good.

 

I think I would find Space Wolves much more natural to fight with than Codex Marines. C:SW is more flexible and forgiving for any play style than C:UM, imo.

 

Tacticals were the reason I didn't choose DA as my army.

[Walter Payton]

You also missed the fact that it was the imminent arrival of the Ultramarines that forced Horus to lower the shields, thus ending the heresy.

 

Plus whatever they were doing with Garro in Legion of One or Oath of Moment (I forget which).

[Pulse]

You also missed the fact that it was the imminent arrival of the Ultramarines that forced Horus to lower the shields, thus ending the heresy.

True enough.

 

Still though with the power of the Ultramarines apprantly being the biggest of the Legions, you would have assumed that Guilliman (being a so called "master tactician") would have managed to get at least a sizeable contingent of his Legion to Terra a lot faster. So for me the Ultramarines were the most dissapointing.

[Legatus]

You also missed the fact that it was the imminent arrival of the Ultramarines that forced Horus to lower the shields, thus ending the heresy.

That is debateable. While some sources mention the impending arrival of the Ultramarines (e.g. the Collected Visions, IIRC), other sources only mention the Space Wolves and Dark Angels.

 

I would like to note that the Ultramarines were only even learning of the Heresy when Terra was already under siege. In that light I do think it is forgivable that they could not be at Terra earlier.

[Gree]

Still though with the power of the Ultramarines apprantly being the biggest of the Legions, you would have assumed that Guilliman (being a so called "master tactician") would have managed to get at least a sizeable contingent of his Legion to Terra a lot faster. So for me the Ultramarines were the most dissapointing.

 

According to some sources Guilliman did not even now there was a Heresy until Terra was already under seige. And he was half a galaxy away in the Eastern Fringe.