Which Legion dissapointed you the most?

[Pulse]

According to some sources Guilliman did not even now there was a Heresy until Terra was already under seige. And he was half a galaxy away in the Eastern Fringe.

Thats reasonable to assume. Still, even when he found out i am sure he could have managed to get part of his Legion away from Calth and the Alpha Legion, to speed to Terra.

[Gree]

According to some sources Guilliman did not even now there was a Heresy until Terra was already under seige. And he was half a galaxy away in the Eastern Fringe.

Thats reasonable to assume. Still, even when he found out i am sure he could have managed to get part of his Legion away from Calth and the Alpha Legion, to speed to Terra.

 

How so? Index Astartes Word Bearers claims they summoned huge daemon hosts and had countless cultists at their back, along with a liberal use of ''geo-nucleuer'' weapons. By the time Guilliman would have known about the Heresy he would have been under attack by massive hordes of daemons and Word Bearers. I'm sure once he could have he sent as many Ultramarines as he could, but consider the distance.

 

Terra is in the Segmentum Solar, Macragge lies all the way on the far side of the Ultima Segmentum. That's about half a galaxy away. That is some massive distance to travel. Even if he was not attacked at Calth Guilliman would probably not have made it in time. His tactical abilities have nothing to do with the sheer distance involved.

[Captain Idaho]

that response was faster than i expected...is there like a batsignal or something that alerts you boys in blue whenever anybody speaks poorly of you guys?

 

WLK

 

No, we use the same system Space Wolves players do whenever someone utters that Russ was not the best at everything and the Space Wolves are a Legion 30,000 strong ^_^

 

I think A D-B likes them, so they'll get positive coverage if he covers them.

 

Really? I didn't get that impression from the few posts of his I've seen. I thought he was indifferent to them?

[A D-B]

According to some sources Guilliman did not even now there was a Heresy until Terra was already under seige. And he was half a galaxy away in the Eastern Fringe.

Thats reasonable to assume. Still, even when he found out i am sure he could have managed to get part of his Legion away from Calth and the Alpha Legion, to speed to Terra.

 

How so? Index Astartes Word Bearers claims they summoned huge daemon hosts and had countless cultists at their back, along with a liberal use of ''geo-nucleuer'' weapons. By the time Guilliman would have known about the Heresy he would have been under attack by massive hordes of daemons and Word Bearers. I'm sure once he could have he sent as many Ultramarines as he could, but consider the distance.

 

Terra is in the Segmentum Solar, Macragge lies all the way on the far side of the Ultima Segmentum. That's about half a galaxy away. That is some massive distance to travel. Even if he was not attacked at Calth Guilliman would probably not have made it in time. His tactical abilities have nothing to do with the sheer distance involved.

 

Oh, man. Calth has no [EXPLETIVE DELETED] idea what's coming towards it on the tides of the warp. The skies above that world will burn until it rains ash and burning steel onto the armies below.

[Wrath of Terra]

You also missed the fact that it was the imminent arrival of the Ultramarines that forced Horus to lower the shields, thus ending the heresy.

 

I'll stand open to correction but I believe that was largely DA and SW forces ploughing the road to Terra that caused this. And even if the Ultras were a factor in this if it hadn't been for other legions fighting and dying on Terra and elsewhere there would have been nothing left for the Ultras to show late for except for a victorious Horus ascended to god-hood. And I doubt their repetative tactics would have done much good there.

 

Some posters seem to think the Guilliman's codex allows for flexibility but I've always seen it as being like; "WHEN this happens you MUST do THIS or else you're a dirty stinking almost-heretic and no gene-son of mine. Me, big Bobbie Guilliman. ALWAYS DO WHAT I SAY SO I CAN MICROMANAGE FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE/STASIS FIELD! (Ghostly moan)"

 

Personally, if I were a chapter master I'd prefer my boys to act in whatever manner they decide is the best at that moment in time, no matter how unorthodox, ala the Alpha Legion.

[Pulse]

Oh, man. Calth has no [EXPLETIVE DELETED] idea what's coming towards it on the tides of the warp. The skies above that world will burn until it rains ash and burning steel onto the armies below.

Ohhhh you tease!

[Artein]

Oh, man. Calth has no [EXPLETIVE DELETED] idea what's coming towards it on the tides of the warp. The skies above that world will burn until it rains ash and burning steel onto the armies below.

I love you! :o

Be my wife! :P

Or a husband? :angry:

Or adopt me! B)

[Legatus]

And even if the Ultras were a factor in this if it hadn't been for other legions fighting and dying on Terra and elsewhere there would have been nothing left for the Ultras to show late for except for a victorious Horus ascended to god-hood.

I don't think anyone was suggesting the Ultramarines won the Heresy single handedly... :angry:

 

 

Some posters seem to think the Guilliman's codex allows for flexibility but I've always seen it as being like; "WHEN this happens you MUST do THIS or else you're a dirty stinking almost-heretic and no gene-son of mine.

It's actually more like: "When this happens, then hundreds of years of warfare analysed by the greatest military minds have shown that THIS would be the most beneficial approach." A commander might chose to ignore all of that experience and analysis, and that would not neccessarily mean he would not be victorious. But going with the approach suggested in the Codex Astartes would consistently lead to the better outcome.

[Wrath of Terra]

And even if the Ultras were a factor in this if it hadn't been for other legions fighting and dying on Terra and elsewhere there would have been nothing left for the Ultras to show late for except for a victorious Horus ascended to god-hood.

I don't think anyone was suggesting the Ultramarines won the Heresy single handedly... :angry:

 

 

Some posters seem to think the Guilliman's codex allows for flexibility but I've always seen it as being like; "WHEN this happens you MUST do THIS or else you're a dirty stinking almost-heretic and no gene-son of mine.

It's actually more like: "When this happens, then hundreds of years of warfare analysed by the greatest military minds have shown that THIS would be the most beneficial approach." A commander might chose to ignore all of that experience and analysis, and that would not neccessarily mean he would not be victorious. But going with the approach suggested in the Codex Astartes would consistently lead to the better outcome.

 

 

In fairness, it's complete :P that after fighting with the same tactics for 10k+ years that the Codex marines can't be read like a book by any xenos species that's fought them in that time. Eldar, for example, aren't stupid, they'd know that marines always react with X,Y and Z "beneficial approach" in every situation. Very annoying.

[Brother Rathul]

Thousand Sons, they could have tried harder to warn the emperor but no. They had to send a telepathic message rather then going in person.

Today's equivalant of that would be Magnus sending a text the Emperor. Something like this.....

" Oh my gosh! Hey dad, your most beloved son is a TRAITOR!!!!!!! (ghostly echo/ repeat) By the way, this is totally not going to make you mad since you banned physic powers right?

Your Best Son forever

Magnus the Red"

Something to that effect.

[Legatus]

In fairness, it's complete censored.gif that after fighting with the same tactics for 10k+ years that the Codex marines can't be read like a book by any xenos species that's fought them in that time. Eldar, for example, aren't stupid, they'd know that marines always react with X,Y and Z "beneficial approach" in every situation. Very annoying.

I am sure Eldar have a pretty good idea what to expect from Marines. They have probably seen a few drop pod assaults, orbital bombardments or armoured spearheads. That does not mean they will know in every instance hos the Marines will deploy. There are hundreds of factors to take into consideration by the commanding officier. The Eldar would have to know all the information the Marine Commander would have available to him (if he knows there are Eldar he would likely act different than if he didn't know that, for example), as well as his force dispositions, and the Eldar would have to have knowledge of not simply the general tactics but specific descriptions in the Codex Astartes to figure out how the commander will ultimately decide to attack, when, where, with what forces. In all honesty I think the Eldar seer powers will be a more useful tool to predict their opponent's actions than trying to figure out the entire content of the Codex Astartes.

[Brother Rathul]

In fairness, it's complete censored.gif that after fighting with the same tactics for 10k+ years that the Codex marines can't be read like a book by any xenos species that's fought them in that time. Eldar, for example, aren't stupid, they'd know that marines always react with X,Y and Z "beneficial approach" in every situation. Very annoying.

I am sure Eldar have a pretty good idea what to expect from Marines. They have probably seen a few drop pod assaults, orbital bombardments or armoured spearheads. That does not mean they will know in every instance hos the Marines will deploy. There are hundreds of factors to take into consideration by the commanding officier. The Eldar would have to know all the information the Marine Commander would have available to him (if he knows there are Eldar he would likely act different than if he didn't know that, for example), as well as his force dispositions, and the Eldar would have to have knowledge of not simply the general tactics but specific descriptions in the Codex Astartes to figure out how the commander will ultimately decide to attack, when, where, with what forces. In all honesty I think the Eldar seer powers will be a more useful tool to predict their opponent's actions than trying to figure out the entire content of the Codex Astartes.

 

Not to mention, I would think the codex astartes is a REALLY BIG book as well as being guarded by hundreds of space marines. Do you really want to read it now? :angry:

[Wrath of Terra]

In fairness, it's complete censored.gif that after fighting with the same tactics for 10k+ years that the Codex marines can't be read like a book by any xenos species that's fought them in that time. Eldar, for example, aren't stupid, they'd know that marines always react with X,Y and Z "beneficial approach" in every situation. Very annoying.

I am sure Eldar have a pretty good idea what to expect from Marines. They have probably seen a few drop pod assaults, orbital bombardments or armoured spearheads. That does not mean they will know in every instance hos the Marines will deploy. There are hundreds of factors to take into consideration by the commanding officier. The Eldar would have to know all the information the Marine Commander would have available to him (if he knows there are Eldar he would likely act different than if he didn't know that, for example), as well as his force dispositions, and the Eldar would have to have knowledge of not simply the general tactics but specific descriptions in the Codex Astartes to figure out how the commander will ultimately decide to attack, when, where, with what forces. In all honesty I think the Eldar seer powers will be a more useful tool to predict their opponent's actions than trying to figure out the entire content of the Codex Astartes.

 

Not to mention, I would think the codex astartes is a REALLY BIG book as well as being guarded by hundreds of space marines. Do you really want to read it now? :angry:

 

 

You don't need to read it just be aware that for 10k+ years everytime X happens the marines do Y and act accordingly.

[Brother Rathul]

TOO MANY VARIABLES! :blink:

Sorry, just got back from school, a little tired.

Space Marines don't always have to revert to the codex astartes though. Just look at all the battles won without it.

[Legatus]

You don't need to read it just be aware that for 10k+ years everytime X happens the marines do Y and act accordingly.

Only it is not as simple as "X" happening. It is extremely unlikely that situations will repeat in exactly the same layout as before. Fighting against Eldar is not the same as fighting against Eldar. Is the Terrain clear or is it difficult? There will be more or fewer vehicles depending on that. Do the Eldar have a lot of armour piercing weapons? And are the Space Marines aware of that? How important is the mission objective for the Space Marines? Will their attacking force only consists of a few units from a Battle Company, or will they teleport Terminators into the heart of the battle? Are the Space Marines even at full strength, or are they maybe a bit short on assault squads, and are instead deploying a greater amount of heavy weapons? It is not as simple as Situation being "X" so the Space Marines will do "Y". The Eldar would have to be knowledgeable of all these factors, specifically what the Space Marine knowledge of them is (does he know about the Eldar force strength?), what their objective is and what kind of forces they have available.

 

 

TOO MANY VARIABLES!

^ This, essentially.

[Brother Rathul]

You don't need to read it just be aware that for 10k+ years everytime X happens the marines do Y and act accordingly.

Only it is not as simple as "X" happening. It is extremely unlikely that situations will repeat in exactly the same layout as before. Fighting against Eldar is not the same as fighting against Eldar. Is the Terrain clear or is it difficult? There will be more or fewer vehicles depending on that. Do the Eldar have a lot of armour piercing weapons? And are the Space Marines aware of that? How important is the mission objective for the Space Marines? Will their attacking force only consists of a few units from a Battle Company, or will they teleport Terminators into the heart of the battle? Are the Space Marines even at full strength, or are they maybe a bit short on assault squads, and are instead deploying a greater amount of heavy weapons? It is not as simple as Situation being "X" so the Space Marines will do "Y". The Eldar would have to be knowledgeable of all these factors, specifically what the Space Marine knowledge of them is (does he know about the Eldar force strength?), what their objective is and what kind of forces they have available.

 

 

TOO MANY VARIABLES!

^ This, essentially.

Exactly. There is always different things going on in the realm of battle.

But think about it this way,

This all wouldn't have happened if Horus didn't turn to chaos so in that case, his legion as well as he himself proabaly dissapoint me the most. (From Horus's point of view) Because the Emperor totally didn't save my life a couple times and because he left I'm going to be angry and cry about it. :blink: And, I'm going to listen to this crrepy priest fellow who totally dosen't look evil instead of my brother who i have fought and bled with for thousands of years. Not to mention being tainted by a mere space marine compared to a primarch with his wealth of knowledge and power. GREAT SHAME SHALL BE BESTOWED UPON YOU!

[Gree]

I'll stand open to correction but I believe that was largely DA and SW forces ploughing the road to Terra that caused this. And even if the Ultras were a factor in this if it hadn't been for other legions fighting and dying on Terra and elsewhere there would have been nothing left for the Ultras to show late for except for a victorious Horus ascended to god-hood. And I doubt their repetative tactics would have done much good there.

 

And yet Horus was scared enough of them to take great pains to ensure Guilliman was on the other side of the galaxy.

 

Some posters seem to think the Guilliman's codex allows for flexibility but I've always seen it as being like; "WHEN this happens you MUST do THIS or else you're a dirty stinking almost-heretic and no gene-son of mine. Me, big Bobbie Guilliman. ALWAYS DO WHAT I SAY SO I CAN MICROMANAGE FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE/STASIS FIELD! (Ghostly moan)"

 

Well if you want to think that you can, but going by the codices and the Index Astartes articles that is not so.

 

I mean look, Guilliman is a superhuman military warlord who has fought unumbered conflicts against many enemies. He conquered countless worlds. He is not an idiot.

 

In fairness, it's complete :blink: that after fighting with the same tactics for 10k+ years that the Codex marines can't be read like a book by any xenos species that's fought them in that time. Eldar, for example, aren't stupid, they'd know that marines always react with X,Y and Z "beneficial approach" in every situation. Very annoying.

 

You don't seem to understand what the codex is. The Codex has literally hunderds of different ways for each and every scenerio. The Ultramarines do not use the same tactics every single time in every single battle.

 

Plus the Codex is growing and evolving according the IA Ultramarines.

 

The Codex Astartes laid down the tactical doctrines of the Imperium's fighting forces and was to grow and evolve over the millennia into a massive tome that detailed everything from battlefield stratagems to uniform markings for various squad types.

 

You don't need to read it just be aware that for 10k+ years everytime X happens the marines do Y and act accordingly.

 

Except they don't.

 

A Codex officer has countless different options to choose from. Hundreds of different variables and situations remember? And the Codex itself is always growing and evolving. The Ultramarines do not employ the same tactics used against say Biel-Tan Eldar in a forested setting to a combat situation with Saim-Hain Eldar in a desert setting.

[Ubermensch Commander]

Regarding the validity of repeated tactics found in the Codex Astartes:

 

If the World Eaters and the Black Templar can exist as a fighting force in 40K, you bet your shiny, ceramite plated rear that the Codex will still be viable.

 

As mentioned above, the Codex is a flexible and evolving document. Example: Tyranid invasion. Something new? Figure out to smash it, write it down in the codex, disseminate that knowledge amongst the chapters to continue to smash the enemy.

 

*hmm Gree covered this better than my reply. Carry on*

[Wrath of Terra]

I'll stand open to correction but I believe that was largely DA and SW forces ploughing the road to Terra that caused this. And even if the Ultras were a factor in this if it hadn't been for other legions fighting and dying on Terra and elsewhere there would have been nothing left for the Ultras to show late for except for a victorious Horus ascended to god-hood. And I doubt their repetative tactics would have done much good there.

 

And yet Horus was scared enough of them to take great pains to ensure Guilliman was on the other side of the galaxy.

 

 

 

I'm fairly certain that at no point does Horus say he's scared of them or act like it. A horde of middling marines with bolters and heavy weapons still equals a horde of bolters and heavy weapons. The only thing a lot of the traitor legions would have to worry about from the Ultras would be their numbers. Let's face it if the Ultras were to take on pre-heresy World Eaters, Luna Wolves, Emperors Children, Death Guard, Iron Warriors or possibly Alphas in anything like an even numbered fight it's very hard to concieve of the Ultras coming out on top.

 

Also it wasn't hard for Horus to make sure the Ultras were on the other side of the galaxy since they were mostly there already helping Guilliman set up his own private fief anyway.

 

As for the codex, you're not going to convince me and I'm not going to convince you. I think it's a straightjacket that makes them predictable, unimaginative and unable/afraid to use unorthodox tactics when called for, you think the opposite. But then again it would be boring if we all agreed with each other :wacko:

[Legatus]

There are different sources explaining why Horus lowered the shields. Some say the Ultramarines were close (like "Collected Visions"), some only mention the Dark Angels and Space Wolves, so I tend to not take that as a given. Likewise, some sources say it had been a deliberate ploy by Horus to send the Ultramarines to the far reaches of the Galaxy, some merely say he started his uprising at a time when the Ultramarines were far away, while others just say that it had been the Ultramarines' own successes that had led them so far into the galactic south-east.

 

However, there was this neat bit in "Galaxy in Flames". (Not that I am saying it is to be taken as canon or anything...)

 

Regulus turned to leave and Erebus said, 'We have waited a long time for this day, Lorgar will be exultant.'

'Lorgar has his own battles to fight, Erebus,' replied Horus sharply. 'Should he fail at Calth, all this will be for nothing if Guilliman's Legion is allowed to intervene. Save your celebrations for when I sit upon the throne of Terra.'

 

:D

 

Let's face it if the Ultras were to take on pre-heresy World Eaters, Luna Wolves, Emperors Children, Death Guard, Iron Warriors or possibly Alphas in anything like an even numbered fight it's very hard to concieve of the Ultras coming out on top.

The battle for Calth usually describes the Ultramarines being at a disadvantage. They were hit surprisingly by a massive fleet, losing a lot of ships in the initial strike, and the Marines that were planetside are then also described as being outnumbered by the attackers. It took them some effort to recuperate from that strike, but the Word Bearers were not able to defeat the survivors on the ground or the remainder of the Ultramarine fleet, and as soon as Guilliman had resumed controll over the ground forces the Word Bearer advance was halted and finally pushed back.

Now, I personally assume that the World Eaters' ferrocious fighting style would have made them excellent in a Marine vs. Marine situation, and Horus' own Legion had allways been described as second to none. On the other hand throughout the Great Crusade the Ultramarines had fought their battles taking fewer casualties than any other Legion and were taking worlds faster than the other Legions, and that was before they grew into the largest Legion (taking few casualties undoubtedly helped with that). So I would be so bold to claim that even given equal numbers the Ultramarines would have bested a lot of the other Legions. Certainly the Death Guard, and likely also the Emperor's Children and the Iron Warriors (it was not like the Ultramarines would have engaged the Iron Warriors in a static fortified encounter).

 

 

Also it wasn't hard for Horus to make sure the Ultras were on the other side of the galaxy since they were mostly there already helping Guilliman set up his own private fief anyway.

Come on, you are bing cynical, aren't you? ;) Guilliman had already established the Realm of Ultramar before the Emperor had found him. Nothing he did during the Great Crusade conrtibuted any more to that. During the Great Crusade Guilliman was busy taking more worlds than everyone else, and steadily growing his Legion, thanks to excellent resupply routes and few own casualties.

 

 

As for the codex, you're not going to convince me and I'm not going to convince you. I think it's a straightjacket that makes them predictable, unimaginative and unable/afraid to use unorthodox tactics when called for, you think the opposite.

Well, there is this description from the Imperial Fists Index Astartes:

 

"Initially [during the Great Crusade], the Imperial Fists were an inflexible formation; each Company had an identical organisation and Company Commanders tended to be unimaginative. Overall planning was excellent, however, and this, coupled with the unshakeable determination of the individual Fists, made them an excellent assault formation against defences (...)

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react."

 

That does rather sound like flexibility and diversity are the tenets of the Codex Astartes. The Codex expects Marines to be able to deal with any kind of situation, and not focus on one particular style of combat. Compare that to the White Scars, who focus entirely on mobile warfare, so far so that they do not use Devastators or Dreadnoughts (IIRC). The Salamanders on the other hand use fewer fast units and rely heavily on slow and durable units. If any Chapter would be predictable, it is these. The Codex allows a Chapter to utilise any kind of approach, depending on the situation.

[Gree]

I'm fairly certain that at no point does Horus say he's scared of them or act like it.

 

The entire point of sending them to the other side of the galaxy so was that they could not use their numbers. And then ordering the greater part of the Word Bearers to delay them. This is quite well detailed in the Visions books were it is clear that Horus is setting up a considerable amount of rescources to divert the Ultramarines away.

 

A horde of middling marines with bolters and heavy weapons still equals a horde of bolters and heavy weapons.

 

Except it's not that. It's a fully-equipped legion with all the support it entails.

 

The only thing a lot of the traitor legions would have to worry about from the Ultras would be their numbers. Let's face it if the Ultras were to take on pre-heresy World Eaters, Luna Wolves, Emperors Children, Death Guard, Iron Warriors or possibly Alphas in anything like an even numbered fight it's very hard to concieve of the Ultras coming out on top.

 

Exept it's not just the Ultramarines. Horus was afirad of the humbers they would bring to support the loyalists. It would be the Ultramarines alongside the Fists, the Wolves, the Angels, etc, etc. Why in the world would Guilliman charge off alone against Horus and all his Legions? No, if Guilliman had been closer to Terra it would have been the Ultramarines acting alongside the White Scars, the Fists and the Angels at Terra.

 

I said it before, Guilliman is a superhuman military genius. He is not an idiot.

 

Also it wasn't hard for Horus to make sure the Ultras were on the other side of the galaxy since they were mostly there already helping Guilliman set up his own private fief anyway.

 

Actually no, Ultramar existed before the Emperor came. There is absolutely no evidence that Guilliman was conquering anything further. In fact the Horus Heresy artbook claims that Guilliman recived orders from Horus to muster at Calth in preperation for an assault against an ork system.

 

As for the codex, you're not going to convince me and I'm not going to convince you. I think it's a straightjacket that makes them predictable, unimaginative and unable/afraid to use unorthodox tactics when called for, you think the opposite. But then again it would be boring if we all agreed with each other :cuss

 

You can have your opinion of course. Until then I will stick down to what GW actually wrote down in the Index Astartes article and the Marine Codex itself. :) (But then again you have not offered much to convince me at all, no quotes, no facts, and nothing cited)

[Wrath of Terra]

Let's face it if the Ultras were to take on pre-heresy World Eaters, Luna Wolves, Emperors Children, Death Guard, Iron Warriors or possibly Alphas in anything like an even numbered fight it's very hard to concieve of the Ultras coming out on top.

The battle for Calth usually describes the Ultramarines being at a disadvantage. They were hit surprisingly by a massive fleet, losing a lot of ships in the initial strike, and the Marines that were planetside are then also described as being outnumbered by the attackers. It took them some effort to recuperate from that strike, but the Word Bearers were not able to defeat the survivors on the ground or the remainder of the Ultramarine fleet, and as soon as Guilliman had resumed controll over the ground forces the Word Bearer advance was halted and finally pushed back.

Now, I personally assume that the World Eaters' ferrocious fighting style would have made them excellent in a Marine vs. Marine situation, and Horus' own Legion had allways been described as second to none. On the other hand throughout the Great Crusade the Ultramarines had fought their battles taking fewer casualties than any other Legion and were taking worlds faster than the other Legions, and that was before they grew into the largest Legion (taking few casualties undoubtedly helped with that). So I would be so bold to claim that even given equal numbers the Ultramarines would have bested a lot of the other Legions. Certainly the Death Guard, and likely also the Emperor's Children and the Iron Warriors (it was not like the Ultramarines would have engaged the Iron Warriors in a static fortified encounter).

 

 

 

 

 

There was a reason I left the Word Bearers out of the list of pre-heresy traitor legions who could beat the Ultras in fair numbers.... Imagine giving the Emperor's Children, World Eaters or the Luna Wolves the advantages the Word Bearers had at Calth. Few if any Ultras would have survived. The Word Bearers always struck me as a legion who did alright, in a plodding sort of way, but in absolutely no way excelled at any aspect of combat. In a way it was Horus sending his most mundane and expendable troops to fight a holding action while saving his specialist troops (W.E., I.W. etc) and just outright better soldiers (E.C., L.W. etc) for much more important battles.

[Legatus]

The Word Bearers may not have much fighting cred, but they did believe that they could successfully overwhelm and wipe out the Uptramarines at Calth. They are described in the Collected Visions as having underestimated the Ultramarines. (Apparently Lorgar though most of the praise for Guilliman's military achievements had been unwarranted.)

 

And while I would be tempted to put your disregard of the Ultramarines' fighting capabilities down to your dislike for them, I somewhat can understand why someone that has not enthusiastically read their background might not think much of them. In their background, Guilliman is usually not praised for his combat achievements as much as he is for his administratorial or organisational achievements. And why not, seeing as how important his contributions in that field turned out to be.

However, what casual reading of some Ultramarines background may not immediately reveal is that Guilliman actually grew up in a very martial culture, probably more so than a lot of other Primarchs (well, to be fair, for most of them their planets military culture is not described). His was not a feral warrior tribe culture similar to Russ's or Khan's home world, but Macragge was a more "civilised" culture, akin to ancient Sparta (but with contemporary tech). Newborn children were inspected for defects or weakness, and were abandoned in the wilderness if they were not deemed strong enough. All children have to go through military academies from the ages 6 to 14. Even prior to Guilliman's appearance the Military of Macragge had been famous in the entire sector for their strength and discipline and had been defeating several alien invasions.

It is probbaly too easy to put down the Ultramarines as administrators but not really impressive in battle, but that would be a mistake. The Ultramarines are a highly disciplined and well trained fighting force, coming from a culture that values such professional warriors. If the Space Wolves are Vikings in space (and over the top comic book vikings at that), then the Ultramarines would be Spartans or the Roman Legion in space (and over the top comic book at that), and I assume you would not dismiss such a type in terms of combat capabilities. The Ultramarines are warriors through and through. But unfortunately that is not often highlighted in their background.

[Pulse]

However, what casual reading of some Ultramarines background may not immediately reveal is that Guilliman actually grew up in a very martial culture, probably more so than a lot of other Primarchs (well, to be fair, for most of them their planets military culture is not described). His was not a feral warrior tribe culture similar to Russ's or Khan's home world, but Macragge was a more "civilised" culture, akin to ancient Sparta (but with contemporary tech). Newborn children were inspected for defects or weakness, and were abandoned in the wilderness if they were not deemed strong enough. All children have to go through military academies from the ages 6 to 14. Even prior to Guilliman's appearance the Military of Macragge had been famous in the entire sector for their strength and discipline and had been defeating several alien invasions.

It is probbaly too easy to put down the Ultramarines as administrators but not really impressive in battle, but that would be a mistake. The Ultramarines are a highly disciplined and well trained fighting force, coming from a culture that values such professional warriors. If the Space Wolves are Vikings in space (and over the top comic book vikings at that), then the Ultramarines would be Spartans or the Roman Legion in space (and over the top comic book at that), and I assume you would not dismiss such a type in terms of combat capabilities. The Ultramarines are warriors through and through. But unfortunately that is not often highlighted in their background.

Thats very true i think a lot of people fail to realise just how effective they are as a fighting force. Especially as you said they come through military academies from a young age.

 

You really need to let the Space Wolf "comic vikings" thing go. Look at norse culture before you have a pop at them. :P

[Legatus]

I don't mean "comic" in a comedic way. I mean larger than life stylised versions. The Space Wolves are not like historical vikings, they are like in sagas or fantasy tales. Idealised, emphasized in their impressive and badass traits. Likewise, accurate and historical roman legionnaires or Spartans were probably a lot less impressive than they are portrayed in popular fiction. Perhaps "comic book vikings/spartans" was not the most fortunate way to put it.