Which Legion dissapointed you the most?

[greatcrusade08]

Wow a lot of uh, lascanon waving in this thread. In any case, I do agree with M2C on the point that at the end of the day combat is trying to kill the other guys without being killed yourself. This basic formula is the same from cavemen swinging clubs to modern special forces to imaginary 40k factions. Oh and how exactly is 40k "hardly changed" from modern war?

 

The elite troops use freakin' swords and hammers, there are races that are entirely biological or mechanical, using no armor whatsoever and most of the wars are ones of annihilation, as in, the loser is wiped off of the planet. Modern wars are just kind of a diversion, like football, but instead of making money it costs money. The main parallel is again combat, one side trying to kill the other without themselves dying, but that's pretty basic. In other words, can I have Pulse's soup ADB?!

 

i agree with this.. every war from the day man clubbed his neighbour to death over a bush of berries and a semi attractive female to modern day iraq/afghanistan has one thing in common... kill or be killed.. but that doesnt mean all wars are remotely similar.

We could line up a roman centurian and a royal marine commando and nothing they say except the 'feelings' of war will be the same.

 

40k goes one step further and has machines bigger than the tallest buildings in new york coming at you levelling whole playing fields worth of infantry in one go..

sure we can draw parallels to certain squad strcutures and whatnot, but how often does close combat feature in the modern military.. probably about as often as a plague marine bathes.

 

I dont care what your background or miltray knowledge is.. you cant start comparing 40k war to anything that has gone before.. it is futuristic and fantasy.. therefore anything is possible

[khalifah]

-attempting to get back on topic-

 

generally dissipointed at the traitor legions. At best their Primarchs are expirienced men(see:gods) of war and are, essentially, the mascots to their legions. I meen how do you forget that your primarch was created by the Emperor is beyond me.

 

With that said, yeah i can understand if they felt hurt (SM feeling hurt!? not very SM-ish if your a immortal death dealer If you ask me ;) ) when the Emperor left for home. But hey!, gotta cut the embilical(sp) cord some time! :P

 

also, I love the Raven Guard, which is why i dont understand how/why masters of gurrilla warfare and espionge, would let themselves fall into a trap. (not to mention the Perversion of the gene seed).

[Kizzdougs]

I would have to say i'm most disappointed with the Emperor's Children.

 

The most perfect legion(sorry Ultras, i love you as well). Described as the very model of Astartes discipline and courage. The only legion to bear the Aquilla. The phoenix rising from the ashes. Horus or the Emperor say they are the Astartes every warrior should aspire to be (i think this is said in Fulgrim or Horus rising).

 

Then they fight some stupid :) xenos(laern) and no one had the slitest concern that something just isn't right.

This must have been after after the edict of Nikae. A librarian would have sensed the chaos taint straight away. Thanks Russ, Mortarian and the Emperor. You just put the most glorious Legion in dire peril. Just as well the EC fell so far or they wouldn't have mucked around on Terra and things could have been much different.

 

I still love the EC. They just would have been so much cooler as loyalists.

[gogmagog]

I agree!

 

The ECs were perfection, it made thier fall so sad! I would love to make a pre heresy EC army! Perhaps I will!

[Walter Payton]

I feel it is a bit of a waste of time trying to pin down a specfic 'type' of war in the 41st Millenium. For instance, a pitched battle between a Titan Legion and a Tau Hunter Cadre (or Eldar Swordwind) could well be similar to modern warfare (or at least the kind of mutual warfare planned for by both the Warsaw Pact and Nato) - emphasis on maneuver and firepower, heavy use of combined arms and tactics, colossal rate of casualties, counter-attacks and breakthroughs on a minute-to-minute basis.

 

But a campaign between a World Eaters Battle Company and an Ork Waaagh! would bear little resemblance to modern war. If anything it would be more analogous to medieval warfare or ancient war.

 

By the same token, space combat is just as varied. An Emperor-Class Carrier Battlegroup might fight enemy warships in the same way a modern US Navy Nimitz-class Battlegroup would (engaging with air arms at hundreds of miles range), but a Retribution class would fight in the same way a 19th century battleship would (lay alongside the enemy and pound them into submission). An Apocalypse class warship might see action similar to the Battle of Jutland.

 

The galaxy is a huge place, and there are thousands of different armies, races, regiments and fighting styles. There is no 'type' of warfare to encompass them

[caboosebe]

It's pretty funny to see all the Chaos players giving a Chaos Legion and a Reason, and about 70% of the Loyalist giving a Chaos Legion with reason: Because they turned to Chaos xD

Well, I don't really see the 'wrongness' in them turning.

In much of the HH-novels the Emperor is really pointed out as a egocentric maniac who doesn't do it for 'the good of the human race' but really just for himself.

 

Dark Angels:

erasing memories for his own gain

 

Tales of Heresy:

The old man in the church seeing a vision of how the Emperor stands like a tyrant above all

 

False Gods:

The Emperor not saving his 'kids' in Horus' vision

 

Over the first 3 novels:

The Emperor getting mad because of Magnus not obeying an order instead of just listening first to the message. Daddy really can't take it that his kids talk back, like a real tyrant

 

 

Word Beares: even though they were his most devoted servants, and produced the best worlds for the Emperor it wasn't going fast enough for him, he wanted more and more, faster and faster

World Eaters: Denaying Angron his honor by just teleporting him out, could have stayed at his side an fought with him, so they would be bloodied together.

 

 

So again, I do see Horus his point of view in all this. Except for maybe the Word Bearers, the 'Chaos Space Marines' during the HH weren't really that Chaotic and Daemonic as they are now. They saw the Emperor for what he truly was. And Horus wanted to destroy that Tyrant. The Chaos Gods made use of that, and twisted him to their own ends.

 

 

 

As back to Topic.

I'm not really dissapointed about them. But I do hate the Ultramarines in 'Battle for the Abyss'.

All legions are like: No, it can't be! Horus would never turn! While the Ultramarines in that novel are like: Oh he turned.

 

As for the rest, it would be Dark Angels. The Lion for being to pride to see what he has done. He got it coming.

[Legatus]

In much of the HH-novels the Emperor is really pointed out as a egocentric maniac who doesn't do it for 'the good of the human race' but really just for himself.

I guess the Horus Heresy novels would have to give that impression, so as to make the traitor's decision to turn to Chaos not seem glaringly implausible.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i would argue against the Word Bearer's producing the best worlds for the EMperor. The "best worlds" award goes to (in my opinion) the Ultramarines, who destroyed, rebuilt and rearmed worlds for the Imperium and had one of the highest tallies of worlds.

 

the UM have been recorded to rebuild the social infrastructure, armies and leadership of newly compliant world before moving on to the next. They did all this, while keeping up a pace to rival Russ, Horus and Dorn. They get the award.

 

The Word Bearers built churches to a being that attempted to destroy religion. They brought converts when he wanted subjects. They brought religious fervor when he wanted obedience. They were sanctioned for defying His orders.

 

I cant wait to see what ADB has for these theatrical villians.

 

WLK

[caboosebe]

And what is the greatest weapon in WH universe? Faith. Faith in the Chaos gods or Faith in the Emperor. Imagine all those over zealous humans doing anything for the Emperor, just out of blind believe. It are the most zealous people that are the most dangerous. And not just in the 40K universe.

(I do remember that even one of the novels stated that. I think Tales of Heresy)

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

i would argue against the Word Bearer's producing the best worlds for the EMperor. The "best worlds" award goes to (in my opinion) the Ultramarines, who destroyed, rebuilt and rearmed worlds for the Imperium and had one of the highest tallies of worlds.

 

the UM have been recorded to rebuild the social infrastructure, armies and leadership of newly compliant world before moving on to the next. They did all this, while keeping up a pace to rival Russ, Horus and Dorn. They get the award.

 

Yeah, but the thing you take from that is it looks like Guilleman left about half a company on each system, and when the system was done, they'd simply rejoin the main forces of the Ultramarines. They certainly have the numbers to pull it off.

The Word Bearers built churches to a being that attempted to destroy religion. They brought converts when he wanted subjects. They brought religious fervor when he wanted obedience. They were sanctioned for defying His orders.

 

I cant wait to see what ADB has for these theatrical villians.

 

WLK

Theatrical villians? At least have the decency to call them fanatics or zealots :D

[Legatus]

Yeah, but the thing you take from that is it looks like Guilleman left about half a company on each system, and when the system was done, they'd simply rejoin the main forces of the Ultramarines. They certainly have the numbers to pull it off.

The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines described that as being the Ultramarines approach and allowing them to proceed faster than the other Legions right from the start when Guilliman had been put in command of the Ultramarines Legion. At that point they did not have more Marines than any other average Chapter. They were to grow into the biggest Legion later.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines described that as being the Ultramarines approach and allowing them to proceed faster than the other Legions right from the start when Guilliman had been put in command of the Ultramarines Legion. At that point they did not have more Marines than any other average Chapter. They were to grow into the biggest Legion later.

 

It is possible, Legatus, that both your and his quotes can work together.

 

UM start of with [your preferred <_< ] 10K Marines, just like all the rest [barring exceptions, etc]

 

UM start off being, say, 101%of the speede of anyone else in successful colonisation [to take the argument to the point of absurdity]

 

As Guilliman's talents blessed the Legion, UM grew in size.

 

UM with 2.5 times as many marines [is that right? I am forgetting] begin gathering momentum in world claiming. They get up to 150% faster than everyone else.

 

So them being faster is not dependent on them being bigger, nor does being bigger not have an effect on them getting even faster. Both sides are correct.

 

*These numbers are just to make a point and will be contradicted by Legatus's [many ;) ] quotes ;)

[Legatus]

So them being faster is not dependent on them being bigger, nor does being bigger not have an effect on them getting even faster.

No, of course having more men kind of would makes things easier. I just wanted to point out that it was not their size alone that allowed them to operate the way they did. While that was not specifically the statement that had been made, it had been implied. I have just added a bit of added trivia, really, not a fundamental disagreement of stances or opinion.

 

And you are correct in that the Ultramarines had 2.5 times the number of warriors an average Legion had, both with the 10K figures and the 100K figures respectively. And how courteous of you to use the 10K numbers for your example. :)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

So them being faster is not dependent on them being bigger, nor does being bigger not have an effect on them getting even faster.

No, of course having more men kind of would makes things easier. I just wanted to point out that it was not their size alone that allowed them to operate the way they did. While that was not specifically the statement that had been made, it had been implied. I have just added a bit of added trivia, really, not a fundamental disagreement of stances or opinion.

 

And you are correct in that the Ultramarines had 2.5 times the number of warriors an average Legion had, both with the 10K figures and the 100K figures respectively. And how courteous of you to use the 10K numbers for your example. B)

 

You are right about it being implied that UM are x,y,z [anything worthwhile] only because they were large.

 

UM get a bad wrap from hobbyists, generally speaking, actually. Your efforts have actually mellowed my irritation of certain perceived UM traits. I don't think I have been an Ultrahater, and have liked them and aspects of them over the years, but the way the IA are written and the feel hobbyists get from them, when seen through our 21st Century paradigm, is one of usurpers without merit/by default.

I am not sure that is what the IA authors meant, but that is how many hobbyists are seeing it [evidenced by conversations on B&C for example].

 

I look forwards to BL doing a killer job with Guilliman and the Ultramarines. Not too good though ~ haters will hate that :P

We might even get you quoting from it canonically *prays to the Emperor* :D

 

Whilst I might say 10K with you, I always speak of 100K with BL authors ~ I'll get that 100K by fair means or foul! B)

 

I think a The Scouring book would be amazing. Dorn and Guilliman taking heads, Dorn somewhat deranged with shame and grief, Perturabo and the slide from the optimistic [for humanity anyway] 30K era into GrimDark^TM 40K. It could be even better than Horus Rising!

[Legatus]

Unfortunately there will not be a lot of Ultramarines exposure in the Horus Heresy series, based on their background. B) Well, there may be the Battle for Calth, even if that may be rather inconsequential for the rest of the Heresy. B)

 

I had browsed a few Horus Heresy books for remarks made about the Ultramarines, expecting the authors to occasionally make swipes at them, based on what I had heard about it. And there were a few, mainly uttered by Marines who were joking around, but there had also been several flattering comments I did not expect.

 

Books about the scouring would really be where the Ultramarines would come to shine (and as a result would be wildly unpopular with players :P ). A book detailing the Second Founding might even be able to get rid of a lot of negative misconceptions. But on the other hand, depending on the author, it might instead even reinforce those misconceptions. There is one author I can think of who so far has not been too fond of the Codex Astartes... :D

[Khairon]

I just finished re-reading the HH series (dear God-Emperor I have a lot of time on my hands), and, honestly, people who think the UMs are worse because they weren't present should notice that Horus actually comments in one of the books that he sent Guilliman as far away as post-humanly possible because the only two beings that could oppose him would be the Big E and Guilliman.

 

Also, in answer to your statement Legatus, Abnett. Abnett or Counter. I pray with every fiber of my heart that Abnett takes up the challenge, but if he can't, then Counter could probably fill in admirably.

[calgar101]

This is slightly OT but apart from some jibes made by some other Astartes i got the feeling that Horus and others respected Guilliman and the Ultramarines deeply. Dark King/Lightning Tower, that one Imperial Fist marine says that Guilliman will surely stop him... I read that to be the IF Marine expecting Guilliman to stop Horus...

 

Just my two pence.

[Legatus]

I did not know that "Lightning Tower" reference. Nice one. When Dorn muses about how Horus is coming for Terra, his Captain replies "Guilliman will stop him", to which Dorn replies that "Roboute is too far away". His Captain then names Russ, the Lion and the Khan, but Dorn replies that Horus will likely not be stopped. It is interresting that the Captain was naming Guilliman first, and seemingly without having to think about it.

 

I had first heard about some swipes at the Ultramarines made in the Horus Heresy books, so I checked a few of them briefly for references. It turns out that there are actually a few quite flattering references to Guilliman and the Ultramarines Legion.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I did not know that "Lightning Tower" reference. Nice one. When Dorn muses about how Horus is coming for Terra, his Captain replies "Guilliman will stop him", to which Dorn replies that "Roboute is too far away". His Captain then names Russ, the Lion and the Khan, but Dorn replies that Horus will likely not be stopped. It is interresting that the Captain was naming Guilliman first, and seemingly without having to think about it.

 

I had first heard about some swipes at the Ultramarines made in the Horus Heresy books, so I checked a few of them briefly for references. It turns out that there are actually a few quite flattering references to Guilliman and the Ultramarines Legion.

 

Don't worry Legatus ~ BL isn't canon, ya know?! :devil: :P

 

What is "Dark King" & "Lightning Tower"?

 

I cannot see them on the GW website.....

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Dark King and The Lightning Tower are audiobooks in the Horus Heresy series, both on a single disc. I haven't bought them yet, but from what I hear they're decent -- Dark King is about Night Haunter and Lightning Tower has something to do with Rogal Dorn but I'm not certain of the story.

[Legatus]

They are short stoeries, probably published for an event or something. "Dark King" is about the events when Nught Haunter attacks Dorn, is then put into detention but escapes and heads for Nostramo to destroy it. "The Lightning Tower" is about Dorn during his fortification of the Imperial palace. He feels a certain unease while trying to contemplate what it is exactly he is trying to prepare the defenses for, and he wonders whether he is affraid of any of the traitor Primarchs, or of something else entirely.

[jeremy1391]

Hmmmmm who is a dissappointment.... I will say night lords, because of their primarch being EMO

And I'm also disappointed in ultra marines, because they totally missed the party, but then they came in after the heresy and started thinking they can run the show kind of jerkish if you ask me!!!!

[Kizzdougs]

Oh no :P You really shouldn't have said that.

 

Here we go again......... ^_^

[calgar101]

Those two short stories are a good read, just a shame they were short stories :tu: I liked the part where Dorn is running the simulations and then the Emperor comes in, to me that was awesome! Although he doesn't say or do much. And yes Legatus, Dorn doesn't fear Horus or any of the other traitor Primarchs but the reason why they have turned.

[Pacific81]

Hmmmmm who is a dissappointment.... I will say night lords, because of their primarch being EMO

And I'm also disappointed in ultra marines, because they totally missed the party, but then they came in after the heresy and started thinking they can run the show kind of jerkish if you ask me!!!!

 

Night Lords - read Lord of the Night, and then Soul Hunter, to re-address your opinion of them.

 

Ultramarines - got back-stabbed and took an absolute pounding from the Word Bearer's in Calth, but the time they had won through they were both too badly damaged and too far away to have any impact on the assault on Terra (so Horus' plan succeeded in that respect, although not entirely)