Combi-Weapons in Rhino mounted Squads

[minigun762]

I've had a few conversations with people who talk about changing out my Flamer/Meltagun squads with dual Melta and fitting in a Combi-Flamer as backup.

Its a good idea but its also 15 points more expensive which does add up when you have 4+ such squads.

 

In the case of the Combi-Flamer, I wonder if you could get a equivalent amount of killing power from a second TL'd Bolter on the Rhino. Cheaper and longer range vs the whole ignore cover thing.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Thought it was 10 pts?

[minigun762]

Thought it was 10 pts?

 

Yeah sorry, I was factoring in the difference of going from Flamer/Melta to Melta/Melta/Combi-Flamer.

[Atheist]

In case you're fielding havocs in the same list with the 4 troops , 4 combi-weapons are an extra rhino . Also , I prefer them much more on my champions ( if I decide to spend points on combis - besides termicides )

 

Since the rhinos are primary targets for most enemies in any game , I don't ever care about extra armor any more . I rarely have even 10 points left over .

 

But if it can work for you , it could work for me too , please elaborate a bit on your tactics if you'd like .

 

On another note : do we have a topic about heavy weapons choices on "Vanilla" CSM troops or should someone start a new topic on the subject ?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

On another note : do we have a topic about heavy weapons choices on "Vanilla" CSM troops or should someone start a new topic on the subject ?

 

I don't think anybody has ever considered it worth discussing :/

[Atheist]

I figured so , just throwing it out there .

 

I mean , I have noticed somewhere some spawn analysis .

 

So , you can hardly say we only talk about things worth discussing from our codex eh ?

 

Hehe.

[minigun762]

On another note : do we have a topic about heavy weapons choices on "Vanilla" CSM troops or should someone start a new topic on the subject ?

 

I don't think anybody has ever considered it worth discussing :/

 

Without derailing my own topic, I think the valid uses of Heavy Weapons in CSM squads is very limited.

 

I can see having 1 squad with a Heavy Weapon in it as a dedicated objective camper if you already have 3+ troop squad for aggressive objective stealing.

 

I've heard some people toss a Heavy Weapon into squads and use it from the Rhino's fire points in turn 1-2 to knock out enemy armor before you start moving forward, but I wonder if thats a tactic better suited to the deluded fools serving under the corpse god. :tu:

 

Since the rhinos are primary targets for most enemies in any game , I don't ever care about extra armor any more . I rarely have even 10 points left over .

 

But if it can work for you , it could work for me too , please elaborate a bit on your tactics if you'd like .

 

Maybe my point wasn't clear. I was referring to giving the Aspiring Champion in a Rhino squad a Combi-Weapon of some sorts (usually Flamer).

The logic is that you typically only fire a Flamer weapon once a battle anyway, so the one shot nature of a Combi-Weapon isn't wasted. It also means you can load up on Melta weapons, which considering the push for mechanized armies, are more and more important.

The downside is you're paying premium for that one shot weapon.

[EVIL INC]

I would say use counts as for a few games and try the different combi weapons out to see what works for you.

In my experience both getting shot at and shhoting others, rhinos dont last too long. Even if they get to dump thier load, they are still top targets as an easy kill point. I am sure others will also suggest it but if you plan to trade them out in various lists, use magnets.

 

For heavy weapons in squads, it usually depends on the game. While I dont tailor to suit an opponants exact army, I may tailor it to the army type (horde, meq ect). I have found that with cover saves being so dominant, the old reliable heavy bolter has once more come into it's own against troops and of course, the trusty missile launcher for middle ground stuff and las cannon for the big stuff. Figure out your game plan before the game and give it what it needs.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Well, when you think about it the majority of the killing done by a CSM squad is done by the special weapons.

 

If you are shooting at armor, its all the meltas. Adding a combi melta gives you 50% more anti tank (since you'll rarely fire more than 1 volly a game in my experiance) for 1/25th the squad's cost.

 

If you are rapid firing at meqs with a squad with plasma guns, the 2 plasma guns are going to kill as much as all the bolters put together (on average. depends on stuff like cover of course). Again, its a smile price to pay for a large increase in firepower.

 

The exception is a double flamer squad shooting a horde. But thats just the nature of the bolter: Its actually sort of decent for killing hordes.

 

So, if you are running a double flamer squad to kill boyz or gaunts with i don't think adding a combi-flamer is worth it actually. But i think adding a combi melta to a melta squad is well worth it to hurt vehicles better, or a combi flamer to a melta squad to add versatility vs hordes. If you have a champ in a plasma squad the combi is going to be worth it, but its debatable if champs are wanted in plasma squads.

 

By this logic its also worth putting combis on rhinos. Especially plasma.

[Corpse.]

Combi-Melta on the rhino, so the troops can shoot at the enemy troops exposed by your rhino's shot. Or fire the rhino last if your eliminating the last models guarding a independent character allocating the hard gun hits to the weaker guys. Then blast him with a str8 hit.

 

I put combi's on my rhinos before my champions normally. The ones on my champs are just for "Just in case" measures, almost always the combi flamer. Simply because I believe my twin meltagun+Combi melta has the rest covered, with my bolters or pistols depending if I want to charge or take the charge with my plague marines and their defensive grenades.

 

That combi flamer costs 10. If it can hit 10 marines, even if it removes just one gaunt, just two orks or just one marine, its made its cost back. The only combi weapon you dont have to fear rolling a miss with, is the main reason I rely my combi's on flamer templates rather a dice roll to hit.

[minigun762]

Well, when you think about it the majority of the killing done by a CSM squad is done by the special weapons.

 

If you are shooting at armor, its all the meltas. Adding a combi melta gives you 50% more anti tank (since you'll rarely fire more than 1 volly a game in my experiance) for 1/25th the squad's cost.

 

Thats a very interesting way to look at it Drudge. Since you already have the squad geared up that way, you're saying you can give them a significant increase in firepower for a fraction of the cost of the full squad. Thats something to really consider.

 

Combi-Melta on the rhino, so the troops can shoot at the enemy troops exposed by your rhino's shot. Or fire the rhino last if your eliminating the last models guarding a independent character allocating the hard gun hits to the weaker guys. Then blast him with a str8 hit.

 

I'll admit that I'm torn on where to put the Combi.

Its safest on the Champion, but on the Rhino it gives you a unit that can fire at another squad and it also gives the Rhino an extra basic Bolter whereas the Champion gets nothing but the Combi-portion since he already has a Bolter.

[EVIL INC]

Considering the combi is only used for a single shot and then becomes a reguler bolter, it really is not worth it. For the special weapons killing more then all the rest of your squad combined, that depends on your target. If shooting at vehicles, plasma and melta do more damage but when shooting at infantry, it is the luck of the dice. I have seen 7 bolter shots kill 7 marines with the melta gun missing altogether. Likewise, I have seen the melta gun kill a marine and all bolter shots doing nothing. That many extra points to add a single extra shot for the entire game...Id rather just add something that can be used more often such as melta bombs for tank killing.

To the OP, try the different combinations out (pun intended lol) and see what YOU like and what works best for YOU.

Remember, shooting is simaltanous. That means if you cause 5 wounds with bolters and a single would with a crack missile, the enemy can choose to have the missile kill a "bodygaurd" and have a bolter wound on the independant character so it does not die. The only way to get around that is weight of fire where there are so many wounds that you get to allocate the extras in which case, the combi weapon wont be any better then a twin linked bolter.

Also, remember with almost every target having a cover save, the extra ap on weapons such as plasma and melta does not more good then the worse ap of the bolter as a 4+ save is allowed either way in most cases.

[Cale]

It'd be my first pick for 10 point fillers, I think. That being said, I don't usually have those extra points in most of my lists.

 

I do think that they are worth it. I've been thinking about remodeling some of my champions to carry them.

[IronWinds]

I have been thinking about this as well. Now I wouldn't have combi flamers, I would have combi meltas.

 

Reasons for that: You are normally only shooting a vehicle once with your guys, then its assault from there.

Now yes your normally only shooting a flamer once as well... but what is more expensive, a melta or flamer?

Why spend 10pts on a combi flamer when a flamer is only 5pts?

 

So melta/flamer/combi melta is also cheaper than melta/melta/combi flamer.

 

And my final reasoning... as an IW player I have very good options when it comes to finding combi meltas. The IW warsmith model has a combi melta with an IW skull on the side of it. There isn't a better combi melta for an IW player ;) . That and I bought a few warmsiths for the servo arms... so I already have extra combi meltas thrown about :D .

 

 

That combi flamer costs 10. If it can hit 10 marines, even if it removes just one gaunt, just two orks or just one marine, its made its cost back. The only combi weapon you dont have to fear rolling a miss with, is the main reason I rely my combi's on flamer templates rather a dice roll to hit.

 

I love flamers but it is very rare you'll hit 10 guys, I've hit 12 before, but it was a 30 man guard squad that just got out of hth. Normally you'll hit 4-6 guys. Now after doing the mathhammer flamers are better than plasma against marines as long as you hit 5-6 guys. Thought I would mention that ;) .

 

Now finally in my army I try to give every single squad some anti-tank... being an IW army and all, so combi meltas fit.

[Cale]

Honestly, I still wouldn't mix weapons, even with a combi-weapon. I think the best combi-weapon is the third melta in the double-melta squad. The extra chance at killing that tank is going to be routinely more important than the extra kills you'd get from a flamer, and I still dislike mixing weapons in principle.

[Atheist]

Without derailing my own topic, I think the valid uses of Heavy Weapons in CSM squads is very limited.

 

I can see having 1 squad with a Heavy Weapon in it as a dedicated objective camper if you already have 3+ troop squad for aggressive objective stealing.

 

I've heard some people toss a Heavy Weapon into squads and use it from the Rhino's fire points in turn 1-2 to knock out enemy armor before you start moving forward, but I wonder if thats a tactic better suited to the deluded fools serving under the corpse god. :P

 

My apologies for derailing the thread , perhaps if there's anyone willing to discuss them , let's make another thread about them .

 

Maybe my point wasn't clear. I was referring to giving the Aspiring Champion in a Rhino squad a Combi-Weapon of some sorts (usually Flamer).

The logic is that you typically only fire a Flamer weapon once a battle anyway, so the one shot nature of a Combi-Weapon isn't wasted. It also means you can load up on Melta weapons, which considering the push for mechanized armies, are more and more important.

The downside is you're paying premium for that one shot weapon.

 

Hey , you're right , I got it all wrong ( perhaps it's my fault , english is not my mother tongue ) .

 

I actually prefer the combi-plasma above all , because it's a highly useful "premium-shot" and also makes it seem like you "cheat" by 5 points . Combi-Plasma can be useful up close and personal against many enemies ( two shots are better than one ) , except horde armies , I like it better than the combi-melta . And since one combi-flamer equals two flamers ( points wise ) I think that it's not that useful in general .

 

But I now have second thoughts about the whole thing , when thinking it combo-ed with 2 melta guns . Also , combi-flamer doesn't miss , they shoot to kill or they don't shoot at all . Which is an added bonus .

 

I really like combi-melta/-plasma on my chaos lord however . BS 5 can make it count . Won't derail again I promise . :)

 

You got me thinking mate .... ( I have stopped using combis on aspiring champions a while ago , back then I was trying to get maximum firepower , so I used on three troops each with 2 of each special weapon and the same type of combi-weapon for extra oomph ) I may have to reconsider the combi-flamer case .

 

The above comments ( about second thoughts etc ) are said with an all-comers list in mind ( always ) .

 

Useful thread , thanks .

[minigun762]

Honestly, I still wouldn't mix weapons, even with a combi-weapon. I think the best combi-weapon is the third melta in the double-melta squad. The extra chance at killing that tank is going to be routinely more important than the extra kills you'd get from a flamer, and I still dislike mixing weapons in principle.

 

I think it can work either way.

I was talking in another thread that I favor mixed loadout squads in small games where I only have a few squads but I tend to specialize in larger games where 4+ squads are normally available where you can afford to have multiple units with the same loadout.

 

Having said that I find that using 50+ Marines in a game kinda removes the need for Flamer weapons because I have enough Bolters and Chainswords to handle infantry just fine. So the 3rd Melta shot might be more of a bonus.

 

I actually prefer the combi-plasma above all , because it's a highly useful "premium-shot" and also makes it seem like you "cheat" by 5 points .

I totally see where you're coming from, but for me there is one flaw in that logic and that is you can't assault after rapid firing with Plasma and CSMs tend to assault things.

Now with Plague Marines who have FnP, often have Plasma and who don't need to assault (thanks to Defensive Grenades) I could very much see the logic work well.

[Corpse.]

I think the more guns you can get on target, the better off you are. I think combi weapons are great for not having to sweat over taking a certain weapon and not knowing what they will be versing later.

 

A combi weapon shoots once, and thats it, 10 points gone. 1/3rd chance to miss, means 1/3 times 10 points will be wasted. So you buy 3, 30 pts worth, and you waste 10 points naturally. With 3 combi flamers, you spent 15 points worth in flamers for 30 pts, but they will always hit when used. Be the one shot weapon for when you really need it. Hitting a melee unit before charging, or firing it as a last ditch effort to ruin another guard/tau unit before charging and hoping for the best.

 

So spend 30 and get '20', or spend 30 and get '15' and three hits.

 

Tank shocking rhino is better off with a havoc launcher then a combi flamer IMO after it bunches targets into a ball of bodies with the 1" distance rule. Unless of course, AP5 is required and terrain is a factor.

 

All common situation:

So, there you are, ready to charge a unit of (anything) and your 2" from them. Your champion as always is in front like your used to setting him. You fire your meltaguns and pistols and kill only a few models as usual. You charge. You lose 4 models if its a melee unit, or you overkill and make them all run which is a normal occurance. Next round you either lose every model, or you get shot up so badly only the champ is left or maybe one other model with layerd wounds removing both meltagunners. One case you didnt use the combi flamer in fear of making them run too soon. The other case you needed that extra punch to not have so many of your dudes die.

 

Thats why I pick the combi flamer. Plasma is out of the question on the champ for fear of rolling 1's and then 2's/1's for saves with two shots you must shoot since your within 12", and then the inability to charge for firing a rapid fire gun.

 

I don't have a combi-melta working as well for the champ, because its either overkill, or an anti tank weapon he doesnt need since being so close, I pick a powerfist for that occasion almost always. I would even rather use a meltabomb for that purpose, since a meltagun is one shot, I would rather hit a vehicle on a 4+ or auto-hit in melee with a melta attack. (But I always pick fists because of the ever present big thing with knees)

[Desecrater]

The Combi-Flamer has been my choice also, though mounted on the Rhino rather then the Asp Champ.

 

Why I like the Flamer; it always hits (this is big), usually covers 5+ targets, it ignores covers saves, the more rolls my opponent has to make the more likely they will fail one or more (even Terminators roll 1's), and my chaos marine squads (usually 3-4 of them) have anti-armour (2 meltas and a power fist).

 

Why I like it on the Rhino; I can choose to fire the flamer at a different target, before or after the flamer I can be using the extra bolter (points lost on an Asp Champ), spreads points around, and gives the Rhino an extra option.

 

I have had 45pts in my army that I have been playing with in different combinations between Mok or Warp Time on my DP (15pt difference) and another 30pts in various Rhino weapon upgrades (can't find anything else worth 30-45pts). When the Combie-Melta hits and works it's great, but too often (anytime your counting on a hit) it misses or does nothing effective. I like the idea of Combie-Plasma, but still only 2 hits and I don't want to have to have to drive around looking for the optimal target (Terminators, etc). I like the Havoc Launchers but 3 of them is a lot of points, and T-L Bolters are nice, but often can't kill enough.

 

A couple Combie-Flamers, at this time, seem to be filling the void and doing some added damage.

[Grey Mage]

I know as a loyalist SW player If I could put combis on my rhinos it would be top on my list of vehicle upgrades, ever.

 

As pointed out by DD its a wonderful increase in firepower for a small cost.

 

The ability to split fire with the unit thats been riding in it, and to conserve that shot by firing After the squad has, is monumental in making it worth it.

 

And lastly, besides tank shocking what else is a rhino to do once youve gotten where your going?

[Corpse.]

And lastly, besides tank shocking what else is a rhino to do once youve gotten where your going?

Get in the way of things and ram the sides and rears of other vehicles.

[Brother Nihm]

IIRC, regardless of weapon type, an additional weapon on the Rhino would mean that it can suffer an extra 'weapon destroyed' result without being immobilized. So if you have the spare points, you might as well put a combi on the most important Rhino(s) instead of the champ (who's already packing a fist/weapon and/or Icon).

 

 

My 2 Kraks

[Grey Mage]

Ok, and wouldnt it be better to shoot the rear and side armor of said vehicles and not risk losing the KP? And still be able to get in the way?

 

For just 10 pts?