Draeden Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Now, I'm looking at starting a pre-heresy Thousand Sons force and that would make me think Mk. 4 Armour all the way. However I picked up a box of tacticals today and staring at the helmets in the set and the lexicanum article I'm left asking, what's the most advance suit of armour could I stretch a Pre-Heresy force to have, particular of the traitor variety? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund Himself Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Have a read of the Librarium's article on Power Armour. The answer should be in there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2147849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draeden Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 Yeah that's where I got the mk. 4 armour impression originally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2147856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ufthak Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 The way I see it, by the end of the heresy the traitor legions would have had at least some access to MkIVs, MkVs and MkVIs. The MkI-IIIs wouldn't have been in production any more, but individual marines might still have been clad in MKIIs and MkIIIs. In a heresy era traitor force consisting of World Eaters, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, Word Bearers, or Sons of Horus, you'd probably find MkIV-V, with a couple of MkVIs. The other three Legions (Alpha, Thousand Sons and Night Lords), being so far from Terra and the newest armour variants, would probably not have the MkVI, and only few MkVs and MkIVs. Â Additionally, it appears most Legions had individualized suits particular to each Legion (The Thousand Sons being a good example). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2147980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and the Word Bearer contingent under Lorgar would all have been re-equipped extensively with MkV prior to the Isstvan. The Word Bearers dispatched to Ultramar under Kor Phaeron would have been in II-IV. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2148471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draeden Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 The ultimate reason why I'm asking this is despite knowing about using Chaos Warrior Helmets, or those steam knight helmets from maxmini, I am unable to get them for undisclosed reasons. And yet I see this image on Lexicanum: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Pre_H...Sons_Marine.jpg and I see some similar things to it on other pre-heresy depictions on the other legions on the website wearing it is essentially the Mk. 5 Helmet sans the nuts and bolts. Which would essentially mean they're using a less advance Mk. 7 helmet. Â So would I be overstepping myself if I were to use the mk7 helmets and just claim they were mk5 since by appearence they're rather structurally similar? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2149849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ufthak Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Ah yes, that old story ;) From the artworks it seems the 1K Sons used a prototype Mk7 helmet. But then, perhaps the artists simply got their facts wrong. I personally wouldn't use them, but I would think it valid if you used them (but only helmets!!! No Mk7 torsos or legs) with MkV armour. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2150389 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 But then, perhaps the artists simply got their facts wrong. Â That'd be my guess, note the Sons of Horus IA article where the pre-heresy Luna Wolf has a bog standard Mk7 helmet. Â Different people latch on to different portions of MkV helmets and take that as definitive proof, eg: studs. For me its the small nose plate: http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r155/khromash/mk5-1.jpg Which is pretty easy to add to a regular Mk7, I'd happily accept a regular Mk7 helmet with that bit and no studs as a Mk5 (could always say the extra plate was welded on rather than attached with studs) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2150465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draeden Posted October 14, 2009 Author Share Posted October 14, 2009 Yeah I'm only talking about the helmet. I'm mixing in chaos torsos, the ones with the power cabling exposed and more ornate but bear no chaos markings, into with the plainer torsos from the Space Marine Tactical set for the rest of the armour. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2150880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ufthak Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 I think Vodunius' tip a good one. Never thought of that one myself, stupid me, and there's me moving hell and earth trying to get my hands on the one MkV helmet in the Black Reach box...tsts... Â Anyway, good luck with your project, hope it goes along well :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2151239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draeden Posted October 14, 2009 Author Share Posted October 14, 2009 Whilst looking for a head I dropped on the floor (gray carpet Argh!), I came across a chaos helm that was startling very similar to in the picture... It's just shouting for me to give it a monocle.... But as of yet I've yet to modify any of the helms to look like that. I'm thinking a small bit of greenstuff to connect the helm brow to the vox grill! I'm starting to sound PCA like but eh, does that sound like the right way going about it? (mediocre greenstuff skills prevent me from trying without askin first) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2151422 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikik Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 nevermind Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2151807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ufthak Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 There is a helm in the Chaos Space Marine sprue which does look MkVish, it even has several studs. Many people who do pre-heresy forces use it. I personally wouldn't; but it's a cool helm, and with a bit of Green Stuffing you could make it look good on your 1K Sons :D Question remains though whether the 1K Sons ever used MkV armour, except maybe just before the Siege of Terra (until then they'd been fighting their own seperate war againt the Space Wolves; plus, not being a favoured Legion and not being particularly close to Mars or Terra, I doubt they would have had much access to MkIV, let alone MKV and MkVI armour). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2152738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and the Word Bearer contingent under Lorgar would all have been re-equipped extensively with MkV prior to the Isstvan. The Word Bearers dispatched to Ultramar under Kor Phaeron would have been in II-IV. Â I can't see how the Legions were equipped with Heresy Armour before the Heresy even began. Magos:"Finally complete! I think I'll call it... the Heresy armour!" Attendant:"Sir, Horus has turned traitor, and attacked Imperial forces!" Magos:"Cor, that was a coincidence!" Â Heresy armour was a stopgap rushed into production during the Heresy as a replacement mark of armour. It was pretty much inferior to the previous Mk IV, its only advantage being that it was incredibly adaptable, and could utilise many different materials for its construction. The studs are there to bond several layers of weaker material into something resembling the strength of existing Mks of armour. Change your statement to Horus' troops being extensively outfitted with the vastly superior Mk IV, and it'd be right. Mk V was inferior, didn't exist at that time, and was only created because production of existing Mks of armour couldn't keep up with the vast demand for new suits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2152794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and the Word Bearer contingent under Lorgar would all have been re-equipped extensively with MkV prior to the Isstvan. The Word Bearers dispatched to Ultramar under Kor Phaeron would have been in II-IV. I can't see how the Legions were equipped with Heresy Armour before the Heresy even began. Magos:"Finally complete! I think I'll call it... the Heresy armour!" Attendant:"Sir, Horus has turned traitor, and attacked Imperial forces!" Magos:"Cor, that was a coincidence!" Â I apologise for my misinterpretable vagueness, I assumed since I was listing the four traitor legions that defected during the Isstvan V landings that it was blatantly obvious that I was referring to Isstvan V. According to Realms of Chaos it took 6 months to prepare for the loyalist expedition to Isstvan V to be prepared - that presumably have included re-equipping armour. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2153028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and the Word Bearer contingent under Lorgar would all have been re-equipped extensively with MkV prior to the Isstvan. The Word Bearers dispatched to Ultramar under Kor Phaeron would have been in II-IV.  I can't see how the Legions were equipped with Heresy Armour before the Heresy even began. Magos:"Finally complete! I think I'll call it... the Heresy armour!" Attendant:"Sir, Horus has turned traitor, and attacked Imperial forces!" Magos:"Cor, that was a coincidence!"   The mk5 armour was I think given the moniker of 'Heresy Armour' by loyalist legions following the events of the Heresy itself, due to the prevalence of its use during those dark days.  I have made a tutorial for making mk5 armour in a (fairly!) painless way, and one which is also really cheap - you just need a small drill and the 'grandt line' railway rivets. This method also won't cause you to go blind or tear your hair out in frustration trying to slice 30 identical pieces of tiny plastic and get them in the right location. Mk5 armour tutorial click here  I will have to give a thumbs up to what many others have said here - you can of course use mk7 or a modified version of it, but you have to remember that the helmet is perhaps the easiest way of identifying your force as being 'pre-heresy'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2153763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 I had always assumed MkV was created after the Massacre, when existing stockpiles of MkIV and earlier armours were beginning to deplete. The article on armour Mks lists the Mk V as being created "shortly after the outbreak of the Heresy". I just simply don't see there as being enough time between Dorn hearing about the initial betrayal of Horus and the subsequent Dropsite Massacre for an entirely new design of armour to be developed and widely distributed to 4 Legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2153965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrox Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 I had always assumed MkV was created after the Massacre, when existing stockpiles of MkIV and earlier armours were beginning to deplete.The article on armour Mks lists the Mk V as being created "shortly after the outbreak of the Heresy". I just simply don't see there as being enough time between Dorn hearing about the initial betrayal of Horus and the subsequent Dropsite Massacre for an entirely new design of armour to be developed and widely distributed to 4 Legions. Â Don't forget the Heresy lasted quite a while, so its possible that it could have been issued to some of the Legions Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2154218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Don't forget the Heresy lasted quite a while, so its possible that it could have been issued to some of the Legions  ...That was my point... What I was saying was that the Heresy armour couldn't have been developed in time for the Dropsite Massacres, both because of time restraints, and because there would have been no need for a stopgap armour at that point in time, the Legions still having their existing stockpiles of Mk II, III and IV armour.  Put simply, the Mk V was introduced to counter the growing need for vast amounts of armour, caused by the battles of the Heresy. There were no battles in the Heresy whatsoever between the Istvaan Massacre and the Dropsite Massacre to warrant the resupply of 4 Legions with an inferior Mk of armour to what they would have had existing stockpiles of. Once the Heresy fully began though, after the Dropsite Massacre, there would have been an ever-growing need for repairs and new suits, which the production of the expensive and exotic Mk IV armour couldn't keep up with. As such, a new Mk of armour was introduced, an amalgamation of the existing suits, but designed in a way to be able to utilise whatever materials were on hand. As such, it became the ultimate Mk for an extended campaign with little chance of a resupply, as most materials or spare parts could be cobbled together to replace damaged parts. It wasn't as good as the Mk IV, albeit only if the Mk IV had easy supply to manufacturing areas, as the Mk IV required exotic materials to make. So really, before the crazy amount of fighting in the Heresy itself, there was no need for the Mk V.  Really, the only downside to the Mk IV it replaced was the difficulty in finding spare parts for repairs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2154345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrox Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 I think you might be over thinking this  During the time of the Great Crusade and the Heresy in particular, it was probably just know as 'MkV Armour', and its only looking back at history thats given it the name 'Heresy Armour', as most Legions were usung this Mk of armour during those dark days, as Mk6 was also available in small numbers  Thats my 2 cents Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2154720 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 I think you might be over thinking this During the time of the Great Crusade and the Heresy in particular, it was probably just know as 'MkV Armour', and its only looking back at history thats given it the name 'Heresy Armour', as most Legions were usung this Mk of armour during those dark days, as Mk6 was also available in small numbers  We are indeed most definitely overthinking it, however when it comes to power armour the WD129 article is the only comprehensive source, and that article explicitly stated that MkV's name came from the fact that the armour was designed and produced specifically because of the Heresy itself.  What I was saying was that the Heresy armour couldn't have been developed in time for the Dropsite Massacres, both because of time restraints, and because there would have been no need for a stopgap armour at that point in time, the Legions still having their existing stockpiles of Mk II, III and IV armour I don't believe time would have been an issue, WD129 said that MkV was designed "almost overnight" whilst Slaves to Darkness stated it took 6 months to prepare the Isstvan V expedition. As for the need: they wouldn't have waited for the MkIV stockpiles to be exhausted, it would have been quickly apparent as soon as the shooting started that the stockpiles would run out (WD129 stated that armourers were even having trouble maintaining it) and there were almost certainly minor battles before the Isstvan V expedition even if they are mostly skipped over in the fluff.  Addendum: D'oh, I'd forgotten its almost explicitly stated in WD129: "Huge quantities were shipped out to Space Marine Chapters during the Heresy, including to Chapters which subsequently went over to Horus." Since it had already been established in then fluff that the last traitors defected at Isstvan V that means it must have been before then. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2155149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Also, we are all forgetting the most important factors of all: Not only is mk5 armour a way of identifying a force as pre-heresy/heresy era, but it looks damn cool :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2156188 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draeden Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 Yeah, after reading the discussion in this thread I've decided to take a sort of Rule of Cool with my Pre-Heresy Sons. Though I'll stick fairly close to pre-heresy Mk 4 and surrounding Mks, I might elaborate a bit here or there just to have that strange variety. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2156498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Just in case you haven't stumbled upon them, there is a great TS-style helm in the Maxmini 'Steam Knights' range  Steam Knights helmets (one on the left) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2158716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draeden Posted October 22, 2009 Author Share Posted October 22, 2009 I'm aware of them but I'm still on the fence about buying bits online... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181434-traitor-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-2159392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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