Traitor Heresy Armour Question

[Draeden]

Now, I'm looking at starting a pre-heresy Thousand Sons force and that would make me think Mk. 4 Armour all the way. However I picked up a box of tacticals today and staring at the helmets in the set and the lexicanum article I'm left asking, what's the most advance suit of armour could I stretch a Pre-Heresy force to have, particular of the traitor variety?

[Sigismund Himself]

Have a read of the Librarium's article on Power Armour. The answer should be in there.

[Draeden]

Yeah that's where I got the mk. 4 armour impression originally.

[Ufthak]

The way I see it, by the end of the heresy the traitor legions would have had at least some access to MkIVs, MkVs and MkVIs. The MkI-IIIs wouldn't have been in production any more, but individual marines might still have been clad in MKIIs and MkIIIs.

In a heresy era traitor force consisting of World Eaters, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, Word Bearers, or Sons of Horus, you'd probably find MkIV-V, with a couple of MkVIs. The other three Legions (Alpha, Thousand Sons and Night Lords), being so far from Terra and the newest armour variants, would probably not have the MkVI, and only few MkVs and MkIVs.

 

Additionally, it appears most Legions had individualized suits particular to each Legion (The Thousand Sons being a good example).

[Vodunius]

Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and the Word Bearer contingent under Lorgar would all have been re-equipped extensively with MkV prior to the Isstvan. The Word Bearers dispatched to Ultramar under Kor Phaeron would have been in II-IV.

[Draeden]

The ultimate reason why I'm asking this is despite knowing about using Chaos Warrior Helmets, or those steam knight helmets from maxmini, I am unable to get them for undisclosed reasons. And yet I see this image on Lexicanum: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Pre_H...Sons_Marine.jpg and I see some similar things to it on other pre-heresy depictions on the other legions on the website wearing it is essentially the Mk. 5 Helmet sans the nuts and bolts. Which would essentially mean they're using a less advance Mk. 7 helmet.

 

So would I be overstepping myself if I were to use the mk7 helmets and just claim they were mk5 since by appearence they're rather structurally similar?

[Ufthak]

Ah yes, that old story ;)

From the artworks it seems the 1K Sons used a prototype Mk7 helmet. But then, perhaps the artists simply got their facts wrong. I personally wouldn't use them, but I would think it valid if you used them (but only helmets!!! No Mk7 torsos or legs) with MkV armour.

[Vodunius]

But then, perhaps the artists simply got their facts wrong.

 

That'd be my guess, note the Sons of Horus IA article where the pre-heresy Luna Wolf has a bog standard Mk7 helmet.

 

Different people latch on to different portions of MkV helmets and take that as definitive proof, eg: studs. For me its the small nose plate:

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r155/khromash/mk5-1.jpg

Which is pretty easy to add to a regular Mk7, I'd happily accept a regular Mk7 helmet with that bit and no studs as a Mk5 (could always say the extra plate was welded on rather than attached with studs)

[Draeden]

Yeah I'm only talking about the helmet. I'm mixing in chaos torsos, the ones with the power cabling exposed and more ornate but bear no chaos markings, into with the plainer torsos from the Space Marine Tactical set for the rest of the armour.

[Ufthak]

I think Vodunius' tip a good one. Never thought of that one myself, stupid me, and there's me moving hell and earth trying to get my hands on the one MkV helmet in the Black Reach box...tsts...

 

Anyway, good luck with your project, hope it goes along well :)

[Draeden]

Whilst looking for a head I dropped on the floor (gray carpet Argh!), I came across a chaos helm that was startling very similar to in the picture... It's just shouting for me to give it a monocle.... But as of yet I've yet to modify any of the helms to look like that. I'm thinking a small bit of greenstuff to connect the helm brow to the vox grill! I'm starting to sound PCA like but eh, does that sound like the right way going about it? (mediocre greenstuff skills prevent me from trying without askin first)

[ikik]

nevermind

[Ufthak]

There is a helm in the Chaos Space Marine sprue which does look MkVish, it even has several studs. Many people who do pre-heresy forces use it. I personally wouldn't; but it's a cool helm, and with a bit of Green Stuffing you could make it look good on your 1K Sons :D Question remains though whether the 1K Sons ever used MkV armour, except maybe just before the Siege of Terra (until then they'd been fighting their own seperate war againt the Space Wolves; plus, not being a favoured Legion and not being particularly close to Mars or Terra, I doubt they would have had much access to MkIV, let alone MKV and MkVI armour).

[Lord_Caerolion]

Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and the Word Bearer contingent under Lorgar would all have been re-equipped extensively with MkV prior to the Isstvan. The Word Bearers dispatched to Ultramar under Kor Phaeron would have been in II-IV.

 

I can't see how the Legions were equipped with Heresy Armour before the Heresy even began. Magos:"Finally complete! I think I'll call it... the Heresy armour!" Attendant:"Sir, Horus has turned traitor, and attacked Imperial forces!" Magos:"Cor, that was a coincidence!"

 

Heresy armour was a stopgap rushed into production during the Heresy as a replacement mark of armour. It was pretty much inferior to the previous Mk IV, its only advantage being that it was incredibly adaptable, and could utilise many different materials for its construction. The studs are there to bond several layers of weaker material into something resembling the strength of existing Mks of armour.

Change your statement to Horus' troops being extensively outfitted with the vastly superior Mk IV, and it'd be right. Mk V was inferior, didn't exist at that time, and was only created because production of existing Mks of armour couldn't keep up with the vast demand for new suits.

[Vodunius]

Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and the Word Bearer contingent under Lorgar would all have been re-equipped extensively with MkV prior to the Isstvan. The Word Bearers dispatched to Ultramar under Kor Phaeron would have been in II-IV.

I can't see how the Legions were equipped with Heresy Armour before the Heresy even began. Magos:"Finally complete! I think I'll call it... the Heresy armour!" Attendant:"Sir, Horus has turned traitor, and attacked Imperial forces!" Magos:"Cor, that was a coincidence!"

 

I apologise for my misinterpretable vagueness, I assumed since I was listing the four traitor legions that defected during the Isstvan V landings that it was blatantly obvious that I was referring to Isstvan V. According to Realms of Chaos it took 6 months to prepare for the loyalist expedition to Isstvan V to be prepared - that presumably have included re-equipping armour.

[Pacific81]

Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and the Word Bearer contingent under Lorgar would all have been re-equipped extensively with MkV prior to the Isstvan. The Word Bearers dispatched to Ultramar under Kor Phaeron would have been in II-IV.

 

I can't see how the Legions were equipped with Heresy Armour before the Heresy even began. Magos:"Finally complete! I think I'll call it... the Heresy armour!" Attendant:"Sir, Horus has turned traitor, and attacked Imperial forces!" Magos:"Cor, that was a coincidence!"

 

 

The mk5 armour was I think given the moniker of 'Heresy Armour' by loyalist legions following the events of the Heresy itself, due to the prevalence of its use during those dark days.

 

I have made a tutorial for making mk5 armour in a (fairly!) painless way, and one which is also really cheap - you just need a small drill and the 'grandt line' railway rivets. This method also won't cause you to go blind or tear your hair out in frustration trying to slice 30 identical pieces of tiny plastic and get them in the right location. Mk5 armour tutorial click here

 

I will have to give a thumbs up to what many others have said here - you can of course use mk7 or a modified version of it, but you have to remember that the helmet is perhaps the easiest way of identifying your force as being 'pre-heresy'.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I had always assumed MkV was created after the Massacre, when existing stockpiles of MkIV and earlier armours were beginning to deplete.

The article on armour Mks lists the Mk V as being created "shortly after the outbreak of the Heresy". I just simply don't see there as being enough time between Dorn hearing about the initial betrayal of Horus and the subsequent Dropsite Massacre for an entirely new design of armour to be developed and widely distributed to 4 Legions.

[Cyrox]

I had always assumed MkV was created after the Massacre, when existing stockpiles of MkIV and earlier armours were beginning to deplete.

The article on armour Mks lists the Mk V as being created "shortly after the outbreak of the Heresy". I just simply don't see there as being enough time between Dorn hearing about the initial betrayal of Horus and the subsequent Dropsite Massacre for an entirely new design of armour to be developed and widely distributed to 4 Legions.

 

Don't forget the Heresy lasted quite a while, so its possible that it could have been issued to some of the Legions

[Lord_Caerolion]

Don't forget the Heresy lasted quite a while, so its possible that it could have been issued to some of the Legions

 

...That was my point... What I was saying was that the Heresy armour couldn't have been developed in time for the Dropsite Massacres, both because of time restraints, and because there would have been no need for a stopgap armour at that point in time, the Legions still having their existing stockpiles of Mk II, III and IV armour.

 

Put simply, the Mk V was introduced to counter the growing need for vast amounts of armour, caused by the battles of the Heresy. There were no battles in the Heresy whatsoever between the Istvaan Massacre and the Dropsite Massacre to warrant the resupply of 4 Legions with an inferior Mk of armour to what they would have had existing stockpiles of.

Once the Heresy fully began though, after the Dropsite Massacre, there would have been an ever-growing need for repairs and new suits, which the production of the expensive and exotic Mk IV armour couldn't keep up with. As such, a new Mk of armour was introduced, an amalgamation of the existing suits, but designed in a way to be able to utilise whatever materials were on hand. As such, it became the ultimate Mk for an extended campaign with little chance of a resupply, as most materials or spare parts could be cobbled together to replace damaged parts. It wasn't as good as the Mk IV, albeit only if the Mk IV had easy supply to manufacturing areas, as the Mk IV required exotic materials to make. So really, before the crazy amount of fighting in the Heresy itself, there was no need for the Mk V.

 

Really, the only downside to the Mk IV it replaced was the difficulty in finding spare parts for repairs.

[Cyrox]

I think you might be over thinking this

 

During the time of the Great Crusade and the Heresy in particular, it was probably just know as 'MkV Armour', and its only looking back at history thats given it the name 'Heresy Armour', as most Legions were usung this Mk of armour during those dark days, as Mk6 was also available in small numbers

 

Thats my 2 cents

[Vodunius]

I think you might be over thinking this

 

During the time of the Great Crusade and the Heresy in particular, it was probably just know as 'MkV Armour', and its only looking back at history thats given it the name 'Heresy Armour', as most Legions were usung this Mk of armour during those dark days, as Mk6 was also available in small numbers

 

We are indeed most definitely overthinking it, however when it comes to power armour the WD129 article is the only comprehensive source, and that article explicitly stated that MkV's name came from the fact that the armour was designed and produced specifically because of the Heresy itself.

 

What I was saying was that the Heresy armour couldn't have been developed in time for the Dropsite Massacres, both because of time restraints, and because there would have been no need for a stopgap armour at that point in time, the Legions still having their existing stockpiles of Mk II, III and IV armour

I don't believe time would have been an issue, WD129 said that MkV was designed "almost overnight" whilst Slaves to Darkness stated it took 6 months to prepare the Isstvan V expedition. As for the need: they wouldn't have waited for the MkIV stockpiles to be exhausted, it would have been quickly apparent as soon as the shooting started that the stockpiles would run out (WD129 stated that armourers were even having trouble maintaining it) and there were almost certainly minor battles before the Isstvan V expedition even if they are mostly skipped over in the fluff.

 

Addendum: D'oh, I'd forgotten its almost explicitly stated in WD129: "Huge quantities were shipped out to Space Marine Chapters during the Heresy, including to Chapters which subsequently went over to Horus." Since it had already been established in then fluff that the last traitors defected at Isstvan V that means it must have been before then.

[Pacific81]

Also, we are all forgetting the most important factors of all: Not only is mk5 armour a way of identifying a force as pre-heresy/heresy era, but it looks damn cool :D

[Draeden]

Yeah, after reading the discussion in this thread I've decided to take a sort of Rule of Cool with my Pre-Heresy Sons. Though I'll stick fairly close to pre-heresy Mk 4 and surrounding Mks, I might elaborate a bit here or there just to have that strange variety.

[Pacific81]

Just in case you haven't stumbled upon them, there is a great TS-style helm in the Maxmini 'Steam Knights' range

 

Steam Knights helmets (one on the left)

[Draeden]

I'm aware of them but I'm still on the fence about buying bits online...