Thunder Hammer + Bolt Pistol

[dudelord]

Hey guys,

 

I have a question...

 

I'm thinking of giving a Thunderwolf Cavalry model a Thunderhammer.

This would mean that he's equipped with a Bolt Pistol and Thunderhammer (Normal CCW + Special CCW)

 

The rules state that if equipped with a normal + special CCW then they benefit from the bonus attack (unless its a TH, as in this case), and all attacks benefit from the special weapons ability.

 

Now my question is, can I choose to attack with the bolt pistol instead of the Thunder Hammer, in CC, in order to get rending from the Thunderwolf and maintain I4 for one round, then attack with the Thunder Hammer next round to get the S10 I1.

 

From just reading the rule book, it doesn't specifically allow you to, but I recall being able to in previous additions (without it specifically stating it). At least I think I do. I was wondering what the community consensus on this was.

[Brother Amarel]

I was going to say 'yes' here, but checked the rule book and now I'm not so sure.

 

It seems logical that you could choose which weapon you want to choose (after all it specifically states that you can if you have two special weapons, so the ruling does exist), but it almost feels like the Magic Weapon rule of WHFB (if you've got one, you have to use it). Then again, having Rending, feels like it should be classed as having a Special Weapon anyway...

 

Personally I'd let you, but unless there's a FAQ on it (I haven't seen one, but I might just have missed it :)) you'd need to check before a game.

[Nilsson]

I'd say your free to use it. I've only seen a rule forbidding you to use it in fantasy, so. Despite how much the new SWcodex feels like fantasy, it's not. So go for it!

[Coverfire]

Aren't you suppose to be able to turn off power weapons? for example, when armed with a powerfist, turning off its special abilities and fight at Initiative.

So I assume that if you turn off your thunderhammer it would count as a close combat weapon and count as rending.

 

However, units that have rending because they fight with their teeth and claws would not benefit from the above explanation. Because to do so would mean letting go of their weapon and that goes against all training a Space Wolf undergoes - See Space Wolf.

[dudelord]

@ Amarel

Rending is actually classed as a special weapon (realised it after I posted, so I gave an example below)

 

However, units that have rending because they fight with their teeth and claws would not benefit from the above explanation. Because to do so would mean letting go of their weapon and that goes against all training a Space Wolf undergoes - See Space Wolf.

 

Yeah, I get the Wulfen reference... they're too awesome to use weapons anyway lol.

 

Thanks for the responses btw guys, helped me think of a few things.

 

Firstly, in the situation I gave (Bolt Pistol + Thunderhammer on a Thunderwolf), the way I see it you have 2 special weapons there.

 

Thunder Hammer (obvious)

Bolt Pistol (as a normal CCW it's granted the rending ability from being on a Thunderwolf) <--- heres where my theory could be all balls

 

Now, as you're using two special weapons, you can choose which one to use. So all's good here.

 

The option I was also thinking about was SS + TH on a Thunderwolf.

Here SS's aren't technically considered CCW (It does state that they do not provide a CCW bonus, which implies that they are kinda CCW, but never directly states it) <--- heres where I make an assumption

 

So despite having the rending special ability, he has no way of declaring attacks without a special weapon, and so cannot use it.

 

 

 

This makes me think of another thing. The Thunderwolf Mount entry states...

"...has the rending special rule in close combat with any attack that does not use a special weapon..."

which in my mind means that in order to aquire rending, they must first declare a non-special weapon CC attack. Which, (with a special weapon) seems impossible...

 

@ Coverfire

About turning off power weapons, I recall back in ye olde 2nd ed it was possible, or maybe it was 3rd ed (I started playing in 2nd ed but never fully learnt the rules before 3rd kicked in, so I get the two confused sometimes... 20+ vehicle armour and individual vehicle dmg tables were awesome though), but haven't seen anything on it in the new rulebook.

 

@Nilsson

I'm pretty sure any opponent who says I can't do it is just being mean n stuff lol.

 

edit - fixed spelling mistakes

[SamaNagol]

I am afraid that if you are equipped with a special cc weapon you must use it. And while you would get a bonus attack if it were a Power Weapon or Frost Blade special weapon, you can never get a bonus attack when you are equipped with a Fist, Claw or Hammer unless you have a pair.

[JamesI]

I am afraid that if you are equipped with a special cc weapon you must use it. And while you would get a bonus attack if it were a Power Weapon or Frost Blade special weapon, you can never get a bonus attack when you are equipped with a Fist, Claw or Hammer unless you have a pair.

Exactly correct. The only way to not use a thunder hammer, is if you have another special weapon and you could chose to use that (say thunder hammer/frost blade armed warrior could chose to use the frost blade, but either way, no extra attack).

[Frosty the Pyro]

The actual answer is no. You cannot chose to use a non-special weapon if you have a special weapon. You are only allowed to chose when you have 2 special weapons. There was a rule in previous editions that let you turn of powerfists, this rule is gone.

[Brother Amarel]

I am afraid that if you are equipped with a special cc weapon you must use it.

The only way to not use a thunder hammer, is if you have another special weapon

You cannot chose to use a non-special weapon if you have a special weapon.

To play Devil's advocate however, if I may, as pointed out by dudelord, a weapon with Rending (which to all intents and purposes the Bolt Pistol is, due to the rules of the TWC) is classed as a Special Close Combat Weapon in the BBB.

 

I just can't see a definitive answer on this one at the moment (happy to be corrected though, of course :huh:).

 

EDIT: Of course, if we're saying that the Rending rule is a rule of the model, rather than the basic weapons he's carrying (the BP in this case), then surely we must also accept that Rending applies to Thunder Hammer attacks, too (on TWC only, not TWM's of course)? Oh I don't know, anymore ;).

[Toasterfree]

but a BP isnt a CCW. its a shooty weapon, and you cannot use those in CCW. marines dont fire their bolters at their enemy in melee, except to shoot their face off when they have then on the ground. they punch and smack with their bolt guns. in this case, he has his hammer and must use it.

 

and iirc there was no way to "turn off" a power weapon on 3e

[Brother Amarel]

but a BP isnt a CCW. its a shooty weapon, and you cannot use those in CCW.

 

Pistols count as CCW's in melee:

 

Remember that, in close combat, pistols counts as normal close combat weapons

(BBB, page 42)

 

And on the same page is where is states that a weapon that has Rending is a Special Close Combat Weapon.

[JamesI]

EDIT: Of course, if we're saying that the Rending rule is a rule of the model, rather than the basic weapons he's carrying (the BP in this case), then surely we must also accept that Rending applies to Thunder Hammer attacks, too (on TWC only, not TWM's of course)? Oh I don't know, anymore :D.

I'm pretty sure, the way it is worded, a TWC is rending no matter what (though a rending thunder hammer is pointless). A model on a TWM is only rending when using basic weapons.

 

A stupid distinction GW needs to fix.

[Brother Grius]

The Thunderwolf has the Rending special rule. Not the bolt pistol.

 

The rulebook clearly states that a character with a special weapon may not choose to use a normal ccw over it.

 

The bolt pistol is not a special weapon, even if it may benefit from Rending, because it is the model's special rule and not the weapon's.

[Woulfeheart]

The pistol doesn't necessarily gain Rending, the model does, if only when attacking with a normal CCW. Personally, I see rending as the wolf attacking instead of the marine, so I'd assumed that you get to choose between your Special Weapon and Rending. Otherwise, it seems to be a bit pointless.

 

But to be honest, in the current situation, there isn't much difference. I mean, what would Rending do that a Thunder Hammer wouldn't? The hammer is already disallows armor saves, and is more reliable for tank smashing.

[Brother Amarel]

The rulebook clearly states that a character with a special weapon may not choose to use a normal ccw over it.

That's the point of this 'debate' - no it doesn't. It insinuates but doesn't state.

 

As regarding the Rending - I agree with JamesI (and others) that the model has it and it's not related to the weapon, but there have been many discussions about it already. As to what Rending does with a TH, it basically increases your chance to destroy a vehicle.

 

I still think it was a question without an absolute clear-cut answer.

[dudelord]

LAME

 

I was totally hoping there'd be a "Yes its fine" consensus on this lol.

 

I figure I'll just mention it prior to each battle and see if my opponent minds or not.

[littlbitz]

I think the key here is to ask the question: Where is the special rule for the character, or model listed. In this case the rules for rending are listed under "Close Combat weapons" on page 42 of the basic rule book.

 

I think the rules are quite clear here, if you equip your model with a Thunderhammer, and he is mounted on a thunderwolf, then you choose which special weapon type to use. Period. If Rending were listed under Universal special rules, my opinion would be different.

 

In my opinion, there is nothing else to try and figure out, the Thunderwolf mount entry is even quite clear on this. "With any attack that does not use a "Special close combat weapon" (quotes added by me for emphasis).

[Wispy]

I see where littlebitz is coming from - his regular attacks become special attacks because now they count as coming from a rending special weapon. If he has a thunderhammer, he has two special weapons.

 

If rending was a universal special rule, I would say that he couldn't choose which kind of attacks he's using. Unfortunately, the rule is a special weapon type.

 

 

Edit: I would like to say, I wish TWC rules were more goddamn clear, as there seems to be always some new argument surrounding them. :tu:

[JamesI]

As to what Rending does with a TH, it basically increases your chance to destroy a vehicle.

Rending on a Thunderwolf cavalry's thunder hammer is meaningless. Its already strength 10, so if you do get the rend on a vehicle, you've already penetrated it. Rending does nothing for a thunderhammer (does great things for wolf claws or frost blades though)

[dudelord]

The TWM entry clearly states that you can't use a special weapon with rending (which, by RAW doesn't apply to the TWC, but I'm assuming it like that cause I think its cheap otherwise lol). I'm mainly looking to just make rending attacks in order to maintain I4.

 

I think I like littlebitz's response the best (other people also made similar, if not the same, but his is the closest post to where I'm writing so I comment on his lol), the TW effectively becoming another weapon you can use... which, considering the size and ferocity of them, makes perfect sense to me.

 

Round 1, Thunderwolf helps you smack with the TH.

Round 2, Unleash the Thunderwolf while you wipe the blood off your hammer.

 

This brings something to mind though. Is there any other model (currently) that has rending naturally, and you can also purchase special weapons for him? I don't know the other codices too well, so I was wondering if anyone else can think of one.

[SamaNagol]

It is a tough one because when you have a Thunder Hammer on a model with the special rule 'Furious Charge' you combine the effects. So there is precedent.

[dudelord]

That situation isn't so bad (a little harsh... does that mean that TH's strike at I2 and S9?, or just I1 S9?, or I1 S10 even... or I2 S10, for a space marine) because Furious Charge is a universal special rule. Whereas rending is classified as a weapon ability (a special weapon).

[SamaNagol]

In those instances (Strength modifiers and initiative modifiers) the results are clearly defined in the rules (Furious Charging THammers strike at [base St x 2]+1 which is 9 and Base Init+1 but then dropped all the way back down to 1). However Rending, which is actually in the shooting section, has no defined instances, because no other models with the Rending rule in the game can actually take special CC weapons.

 

If it were my interpretation, as Rending is a rule in the Rulebook which is conferred onto the model, not the weapon, it would stack in exactly the same way Furious Charge stacks.

 

But then it is completely useless in situations other than trying to pen vehicles, so it isn't like it is broken.

 

But the rulebook clearly states that if you are equipped with a special close combat weapon, ALL your attacks take on the properties of that weapon, so you could never strike with your bolt pistol, bare fists, Wolf's snout etc in close combat. The Rending rule is not a special cc weapon and therefor you cannot choose to attack with it. You must use your Thunder Hammer, so you will always be swinging at Init 1.

[Wispy]

The Rending rule is not a special cc weapon and therefor you cannot choose to attack with it. You must use your Thunder Hammer, so you will always be swinging at Init 1.

Uh, look again. Rending weapons is listed right after thunder hammers in the special weapons section, actually.

 

It's in shooting as well, but it's obviously not relevant to this.