Blood Claws underated.

[FerociousBeast]

its a sad dark time for the space wolves, a very dark time indeed ;) .

You've seriously got to be kidding me. You've just gotten a great codex. And it's a "very dark time"?

 

Anyway, on topic, if you're looking for flexible all-rounders, yeah, Grey Hunters are the ticket every time. But put 15 Blood Claws in a Land Raider Crusader with a Wolf Priest, and now none of the comparative "disadvantages" mean anything and the advantages are huge. 60 attacks on the charge, re-roll misses, fearless. I don't care who they're charging. That pack is going to win.

 

Blood Claws are better in some situations, Grey Hunters are better in others. Grey Hunters in general are going to be better in more situations than Blood Claws, but that does not mean Blood Claws are useless. Far, far from it.

[sniperhavens]

Maybe Im not tracking this correctly but If my models of GH have Bolters on them when I charge can I get a bonus for having 2 CC weapons, because they have BP and CC weapon for wargear? If so I see the GH as being far superior to BC. Though I still love the idea of the BC running aroud dying to prove themselves.

[King Tiger]

its a sad dark time for the space wolves, a very dark time indeed :lol: .

You've seriously got to be kidding me. You've just gotten a great codex. And it's a "very dark time"?

because of how new and old wolf players have become yes it is, if you'd actually bothered to read further than the farthest tip of a nose, I already said that.

[eyeslikethunder]

yeah but a month ago BC's were

1)cheaper

2)got 4 attacks whether they charged or not

3)could shoot and charge without help

4)had more special cc weapons at a lower cost

and even though grey hunters were worse then and more expensive most people took them instead.

 

They have a place in the army inside LRC with a wolf priest

maybe with a small unit with Lukas

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

Looking over the BC I will admit my 'starting and untested base list' got them phased out for GH in a rhino, but that does not mean they don't have hteir place. Frankly I think if you are going to make a foot slogging army, BC are the way to go. True they don't have the range on them and they have some issues with transport unless you are willing to shell out for an LRC just for them. However in lower point games with a Wolf guard attached to them they always used to be fun to throw at anything you could, moving from cover to cover until you got in close and could smash into them. True they were little more than Surpifluous wound points and a few pelmel attacks, but they are still a blast to use!

 

I will adimt that WG are probably more tactically flexible, but BC are more fun and thats what being a wolf is all about.

[FerociousBeast]

yeah but a month ago BC's were...

...considered overpowered. They've been brought down a notch, but they're still good. They'll still usually beat their points weight in other marine armies in CC, especially on the charge.

 

They only appear "bad" because Grey Hunters have just become so insanely good.

 

Their only real negatives in comparison to the Grey Hunters is that the GH have bolters, and have better stats. The second one is a definite disadvantage any way you look at it. (But it is almost completely balanced by the fact that they get +2 on the charge.) The first, however, isn't that big a deal. If you're riding your BCs in a transport, their bolters wouldn't be shooting much anyway, and if you're footslogging, they'll be running every turn and again wouldn't be shooting. So I don't see the lack of a bolter as a big drawback.

 

I already said that.

Whatever your perception of your fellow Wolves might be, and however closely they play their armies according to your preferences, it cannot possibly be considered a sad, dark time when you've just been given a new, powerful, and flavorful codex. My drop pod costs 50 points and my storm shield is 4++. Grey Knights are still shooting Heavy 3 Assault Cannons.

[clanfield]

the whole stat thing is guff any way ws 3 hits ws 4(average skill) on a 4+same as ws 4

well thats my opinion anyways

[Hfran Morkai]

the whole stat thing is guff any way ws 3 hits ws 4(average skill) on a 4+same as ws 4

well thats my opinion anyways

 

And anything up to and including WS6.

[littlbitz]

I've been playing the new Codex alot.

 

I have to say at this point, that the old 2 Grey Hunter packs for every BloodClaws pack still holds true.

 

They have different missions in the list. Both are good at thier jobs.

 

Blood Claws, even though the base cost is the same come out way cheaper than my Grey Hunters because of the way I equip them in my list.

 

For example: My core Grey Hunters pack x10 with a Pair of MG (switching to a pair of plasma after my recent tournament), Plasma pistol, mark of the wolfen, Power weapon and Standard. With a Pack Leader in TDA, Power fist, and an Assault Cannon comes in at almost 280 points! Yeah, its rock hard, it wins me games, but it can't do everything.

 

My BloodClaws: x8 with a Flamer and a Powerweapon with a WGPL armed with a fist in a Rhino comes in at around just over 200 points.

 

A huge difference, both units are effective, but both do different jobs. I still have room to add a Wolfpriest to the BloodClaws Pack and it costs just a hair over what the GreyHunters cost!

 

So yes, I think that people are jumping the gun when they say that the BloodClaws are not useful any more. Its all in the application and the list.

[Max_Dammit]

I had 4 games with them, and every time i wished they where GH's, They need an assault tank, or stay back to counter charge a stuck unit, only the 4th game did that work when i sent them in to help my dread against berserker's, I might take a small pack with no transport, and sent them running after my GH's.

 

The whole depending on the charge is a bit much for a low on battle experience player like me.

 

As for MOTW,i would miss it in a BC pack, the extra attacks and rending for the same points as a power weapon will get me to use them more often than a fist that just has 1 attack when stuck in CC

[the great beaver]

I think the problem with Blood Claws is that for the same cost Grey Hunters are better and for only a few points more you can have skyclaws. Nothing is wrong with Blood Claws, but better choices exist.

 

better choices for what purposes? this is the problem that you all are having here...in mathhammer in a vacuum grey hunters are better because of a bunch of things...sure...but what are those things and how do they fit into the greater tactical necessities that we have to have on the field?

 

 

I've been playing the new Codex alot.

 

I have to say at this point, that the old 2 Grey Hunter packs for every BloodClaws pack still holds true.

 

They have different missions in the list. Both are good at thier jobs.

 

Blood Claws, even though the base cost is the same come out way cheaper than my Grey Hunters because of the way I equip them in my list.

 

For example: My core Grey Hunters pack x10 with a Pair of MG (switching to a pair of plasma after my recent tournament), Plasma pistol, mark of the wolfen, Power weapon and Standard. With a Pack Leader in TDA, Power fist, and an Assault Cannon comes in at almost 280 points! Yeah, its rock hard, it wins me games, but it can't do everything.

 

My BloodClaws: x8 with a Flamer and a Powerweapon with a WGPL armed with a fist in a Rhino comes in at around just over 200 points.

 

A huge difference, both units are effective, but both do different jobs. I still have room to add a Wolfpriest to the BloodClaws Pack and it costs just a hair over what the GreyHunters cost!

 

So yes, I think that people are jumping the gun when they say that the BloodClaws are not useful any more. Its all in the application and the list.

 

Hail old brother! excellent point and please allow me to add to it.

 

blood claws are a troops choice and as such fulfill one of the same roles as grey hunters while still being able to fit into your army as a deadly assault unit and i'd like to talk about why.

 

grey hunters max out at 10 bodies or 9 if you want them in vehicle so that means that they can't take the attrition that they'll come across if they're assaulting the enemy whereas bloodclaws have the bodies to be able to lose 1/3 of their force and still be a 10 man squad able to jump the enemy and hold objectives.

 

if you're assaulting the enemy with your grey hunters then what's holding your objectives? if you're assaulting the enemy with one grey hunter squad to take an objective then how many losses can you take before your ineffective?

 

the point is that we have 2 troop units available to us and one of them is good at holding uncontested objectives and holding off assaults while the other is better suited to being stuffed head first into the enemy army so as to take one of their objectives. you guys don't know how valuable being able to take 15 men is in a squad.

 

imagine this...

 

10 man GH

 

15 man BC

 

running across the board they lose 3-4 guys so you have

 

7 man GH

 

12 man BC

 

they assault the enemy and let's pretend they take the objective with 2 losses for the GH and 3 for the BCs

 

5 man GH

 

9 man BC

 

they're then shot all to hell by the enemy seeing as theyre sitting in their lines and they both lose 4 men

 

1 GH

 

5 BC

 

that's an extra turn of holding an objective and against horde armies those extra attacks on the charge along with the extra bodies means more killing and less dying (most horde armies aren't WS4)

 

I'm personally taking 2 GH, podding and rhino, and 1 BC in a LRC and I can attest that whenever my grey hunters go assaulting enemy strongpoints they simply can't take it in the long term while the bloodclaws can.

 

and that's why you take them...

[Grey Mage]

Pfft. 15 pack + WGBL w/ SoHunter. Outflank. Charge. Win.

 

People who don't take BC are missing the point ... unless they are tournament hounds (GET IT?!), then there is some slack. :D

*blinks*

 

Race, did you just say Saga of the Hunter confers outflank onto a unit the IC joins?

 

Since your a OR guy, or atleast thats where I always see you, mind expanding that one a bit?

 

On the origional subject however:

 

Ive never been a huge fan of Bloodclaws. Yes, I understand... especially so in the 3rd ed codex, they were good at what they did- dish out more attacks than seemed mathematically appropriate in a SM army of any type. But, I loved my Grey Hunters... and a full footslogging pack of each tended to cost me the same points, or more for the bloodclaws. While a DP force of GHs always seemed more effective than a similarly priced DP force of BCs.

 

Ive never liked headstrong- and now its even worse than it was before. Why? Because they can still take plasmaguns, wich one used to take so as to fire and keep your BCs from charging if it was disadvantageous.

 

What else did they lose?

 

They got more expensive per model. Alot of people used them for "filler wounds" wich frankly was a fairly fluffy thing to do. Bloodclaws are there to learn or die. Still, advantage lost.

 

They lost multiple Special Close Combat Weapons. While I never was sure how fluffy it was to be giving such artifacts to the claws, I decided over time that it really just showed you how many of the things the SWs had accumulated over the years. Now, instead of 9 PF attacks on the charge *for 36 pts* you get 3 on the charge for 25pts, and only 2 on the countercharge. No more the ability to crush a Defiler in a single round of CC and end its daemonic existance for all time.

 

Babysitting just got more mandatory. Previously, IC or no they could atleast shoot before charging. Whats the difference between 10 GHs who shoot bolt pistols and then charge, and 10 BCs who just plain charge? The GHs get 10 S4 attacks that hit on a 3+ and ignore bad armor saves before the combat even happens. Wich means they end up hitting Harder than an equally sized *and priced* BC unit on the turn they charge, and when countercharged.

 

But wait! They get a second special weapon at 15 men! Well that is cool and all, but if Im close enough to use a flamer I better have a babysitter, and PG and Meltas are relatively unreliable on the BS3 BCs. It also means this pack is considerably more expensive and has *to many a major drawback* a distinct inability to be transported in anything smaller than a Landraider. Certainly doesnt work in a DP force.

 

Though my absolute detestation of the kick in the face our DP assaults have seen is a moaning session for another time. Im certainly going to have to figure out how that ones going to work.

 

Skyclaws show "some" promise, but require an HQ to lead them and avoid headstrong. Thats a personal thing of mine, but I will never put a headstrong unit on the field, ever. To many times did I destroy entire khorne armies with just a couple of landspeeders or some waveserpents/vypers. I wont let that happen to me.

[Quillen]

Ok /ranton.

 

Blood Claws are the gimp now. Period. If they had left it 2 Fists and a Srgt for the 3rd well, ok most of us that used them all the time would have been like, "well more expensive but fine." Instead they nerf them big time. Why? Bad thinking I believe. That said......

 

With a Wolf Gaurd Pack Leader they are almost back to where they were. And I always run them in a LRC for pure killy-ness. So it's not all that horriable. They will get eaten by Monsterous creatures now. Where they use to be able to sworm a Monsterous and drag them down with a few lost.

 

 

Now lets compare 15 Blood Claws and 10 Grey Hunters fighting 10 assualt marines shall we.

 

 

15 BloodClaws with one PF against 10 Assault Marines with 2 Plasma pistols and a power fist.

 

BC hit first. 56 attacks. 28 hits. 14 wounds. 4-5 Assualt Marines die. Then 2-3 from the Fist.

Assault Marines 13-14 wounds. = 4-5 Blood Claws dead, and their fist gets basicly 2 more. SO 6-7 dead.

 

Now Assault Marines hit. 1-2 dead from the plasma pistols. Then the 27 attacks with 2 out of 3 hitting. 18 wounds. 6 more Blood Claws die. The the power fist is 1-2 more. So 8-10 Dead Blood claws.

Blood Claws do 24 attacks back with 12 hitting. 4 Assault Marines die. The the fist goes and kills @ 2 more. 6 Assualt Marines die. Assault Marines win the fight. At best you hope for a tie. And Assault will hit way better.

 

What makes SpaceWolves effective was the right gear in the squads for a job. When they had power Fists they could really crunch in melee. Only in melee. Now they are same cost as Grey Hunters and no where near as bad ass. GH were always the mainstay but now they are the only real Infantry we have.

 

They should have said if 15 are taken they may take a 2nd power fist. They would still be awesome if a bit more expensive then they were.

 

 

That said a Pack in a LRC is still ging to smash most things it runs into. I will not be fielding this all the time now thou. GH are better and a pack of Wolf Gaurd is even sweeter. 10 guys gear how ever you want. With 4 attacks on the charge. Maybe more with Ragnar. Up to 6 if you roll well. You can put 2-3 power fists/Thunder Hammers and 3-4 Power Weapons. Leaving 3-4 cannon fodder to keep it going. It's not all that much more expensive. And play testing seems to show this will have amazing pay offs. They have killed what ever they hit in the first turn. They are very potent.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Let's the keep the color commentary out of the comments when debating please.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I think its more todays generation of wolf players are not just missing the point about BC, but about space wolves, even the older veterans are starting to miss the point entirely, there all too interested in whats effective and whats going to win them the next battle in 1 turn, instead of what is wolfy and wanting a big hard won victory worthy of actually telling about for years, back in the day space wolf players were space wolf players, not anymore, now old and new wolf players have degenerated into Ultramarine players in grey armour, wanting a quick victory and an army full of uber units.

 

its a sad dark time for the space wolves, a very dark time indeed :D .

 

I agree entirely, seems folks are focused on those killer tourney "my life has no purpose unless I've won in the deployment phase" armies these days.

 

I'm lucky, I don't play tourney and I'm in a gaming group that plays for fun and fluff. I was a Wolf player back in 2nd ed, kinda gave up on the wolves in 4th ed when it was clear we had been forgotten about and went over to an all-GK army.

 

Now I'm back in grey, I play like I always used to. For me a Wolf army needs at least on Blood Claws squad, it's just what they do. Blood Claws are included in all but the most inportant missions, to get out there and learn how to fight, they are supposed to be in the first wave so that only the best live to make it to Grey Hunter status.

 

I love my Blood puppies.

[Grey Mage]

so what do you reckon?power sword or fist for my BC?

Powerfist.

 

I used to run 2x Powerfist and 1x Powerweapon. But now that you can only have one powerfist all the way.

 

Because a powerfist can hurt things that the other BCs cant. Like T8.

 

so it's been 1 year 6months and 19 days since i joined and i am about to type up my 1000th post :D. sorry i had to just write this off-topic part of my reply ^^ and i am about to over-take Grey Mage in the days top posters today! ( i didn't spam they were 99% detailed with some longs comments in there ).

:lol:anyway, BC are very underrated. give them a power fist and a wolf guard with a power fist. and stick ragnar in with a lrc and that's you ultimate anti-horde and naturally anti-anything.

thanks

antique_nova

This amuses me greatly. I didnt wak up until... 10 hours after you posted Antique_nova.

[the great beaver]

bah...ye people are mad...they did get the nerf because they could assault anything in the game and take it down...I've assaulted Monoliths and hammerheads and taken then out with powerfists...it was stupid good and they had to be nerfed....

 

if you don't know how to use them now then your the one losing out...

[antique_nova]

so what do you reckon?power sword or fist for my BC?

Powerfist.

 

I used to run 2x Powerfist and 1x Powerweapon. But now that you can only have one powerfist all the way.

 

Because a powerfist can hurt things that the other BCs cant. Like T8.

 

so it's been 1 year 6months and 19 days since i joined and i am about to type up my 1000th post :D. sorry i had to just write this off-topic part of my reply ^^ and i am about to over-take Grey Mage in the days top posters today! ( i didn't spam they were 99% detailed with some longs comments in there ).

:lol:anyway, BC are very underrated. give them a power fist and a wolf guard with a power fist. and stick ragnar in with a lrc and that's you ultimate anti-horde and naturally anti-anything.

thanks

antique_nova

This amuses me greatly. I didnt wak up until... 10 hours after you posted Antique_nova.

lol ^^, i ain't mad, they just don't fit with my army ^^.

[Sven Bloodskull]

Sticking Ragnar in BC is probably the worst thing you can do. Because, while they might have more attacks than usual, most of the time they will either have the same attacks or less attacks than usual.

 

And seriously, alot of you ppl are saying i'm losing out on something if i don't use BC. Than what is that? Enlighten me. Because the way i see it now, alot of points have to be spend on the BC to make them effective, points that imho could be better spent somewhere else. Yes, compared to normal marines, they are better. But compared to GH, they just lose out on alot.

 

And for those saying that those who don't take BC are unfluffy and power games, come on, man. I play WH40K for fun, but that doesn't mean i can't make a comptetive list, and it certainly doesn't mean i have to include certain units.

 

Sven Bloodskull

[Natanael]

I've been running a foot-slogging list, w/ 4x10 GHs and 15 BC w/ a priest. They perform very good, but not in the role I was thinking they would. I've noticed that ppl really dont like them rampaging around their lines, and so fire A LOT at them. Most of my games, they lose 5-10 men before they get close to the enemy, but then I've got 40 GHs right down my enemies throat. Keeping them in cover while running forward is a great way of saying "shoot me...", while you wisper to yourself "...instead of my GHs".

 

I also plan on running 9+WG in a rhino later, acting as some kind of counter-attack, clean-up unit for my GHs. I think it's gonna work wonders.

[Marek Grimfang]

Blood Claws always were and always will be a shock tactic troop choice.

 

I use them only as cheap body guards for characters.

 

A WGL or something like that as a HQ, BC's are a cheaper and very effective alternative to Wolf Guard.

 

Alot of attacks when they get stuck into HtH with the HQ when he is trying to fulfill his saga.

[the jeske]

HtH with the HQ when he is trying to fulfill his saga.

0_o what?

 

I use them only as cheap body guards for characters.

but GH are just as cheap , dont have to be put in to a LR to work , have the same arment or better and take fewer hits in hth[not hit on +3 , unlike BC] . so how are they a cheaper for of body guard ?

 

I can attest that whenever my grey hunters go assaulting enemy strongpoints they simply can't take it in the long term while the bloodclaws can.

your math is off. if you buy a LR , then you can buy a second squad of GH in a rhino . then check who loses more models . 15 BC in a LR or 2 units of 10 GH in rhinos. 1 target vs 4 . being able to pop a wall. even if a rhino get destroyed cover still can give with the other rhino. if the LR gets poped [and if its a single one it will] the BC have to slogg.

[FerociousBeast]

And seriously, alot of you ppl are saying i'm losing out on something if i don't use BC. Than what is that? Enlighten me.

You're not "losing out." Especially depending on your army list. If you're drop podding, for example, you pretty much are going to want Grey Hunters only. But if you want a close combat army that rushes to get to grips with the enemy, then you cannot go wrong with a unit or two of 15 Blood Claws. Skyclaws would be good, too, but they can't capture the objectives they clear, and if you give 10 Blood Claws a Rhino, they end up costing only 5 points more than 10 Skyclaws.

[Race Bannon]

Ok, so I was wrong. When I was building a list I meshed Shrike's abilities with the SoH somehow, and I went "What?! Kick ass." Thus, the idea of a leader pulling 15 models from a flank and doing some serious damage is, well ... kick ass! BUT, I have been humiliated. Time for some vindication somewhere. ;) Sorry Grey Mage, can't expand, I failed miserably.

 

But I am the OR guy, thank you for catching that.

 

The thing, the strength, I am seeing of the BC is that they are a troop option. With SM, their equivalent unit is JP-less Assault marines. The CC ability of the BC is unmatched vs SM AM, and it's packed (pun intended) into a troop option. That is a HUGE advantage. The trick is that to get 100% use of the unit is to charge another unit. An extra attack on the charge and hitting other marines on a 4+ (which they would do if they were WS4) = awesome. And they can have max 15 in one squad, even better. I'm not suggesting that a useful BC squad *must* be 15 strong, just that the OPTION makes them better.

 

Net effect: open Fast attack options, you know, the real assault units or something like that. Sure, the Skyclaws and Swiftwinds are still "Blood Claws", but what is that: almost full marines, +1 A on the charge, full attacks +1 being charged, high mobility. Awesome.

 

Did they lose weapon options from 3rd ed? Yes, boo hoo. No MotW, boo hoo again because that makes sense! God forbid GW enforces some fluff into the army list.

 

Bottom line: the BCs are not gimped, they don't suck. They can fill a niche and allow for a different kind of playstyle from C:SM. You know, like the Codex is supposed to do. I have to admit, the GH *ARE* the better unit between the two. And competatively speaking they are the ... safest ... choice. Am I going to use GH? You bet. Will I also use BC, yep! Will I settle my opinion on one game, no. Somedays they will suck, some days they will win - just like Tactical Marines.

[antique_nova]

Sticking Ragnar in BC is probably the worst thing you can do. Because, while they might have more attacks than usual, most of the time they will either have the same attacks or less attacks than usual.

 

And seriously, alot of you ppl are saying i'm losing out on something if i don't use BC. Than what is that? Enlighten me. Because the way i see it now, alot of points have to be spend on the BC to make them effective, points that imho could be better spent somewhere else. Yes, compared to normal marines, they are better. But compared to GH, they just lose out on alot.

 

And for those saying that those who don't take BC are unfluffy and power games, come on, man. I play WH40K for fun, but that doesn't mean i can't make a comptetive list, and it certainly doesn't mean i have to include certain units.

 

Sven Bloodskull

the worst thing? you obviously have tested this have you?