Blood Claws underated.

[the great beaver]

I've been running a foot-slogging list, w/ 4x10 GHs and 15 BC w/ a priest. They perform very good, but not in the role I was thinking they would. I've noticed that ppl really dont like them rampaging around their lines, and so fire A LOT at them. Most of my games, they lose 5-10 men before they get close to the enemy, but then I've got 40 GHs right down my enemies throat. Keeping them in cover while running forward is a great way of saying "shoot me...", while you wisper to yourself "...instead of my GHs".

 

I also plan on running 9+WG in a rhino later, acting as some kind of counter-attack, clean-up unit for my GHs. I think it's gonna work wonders.

 

another reason why being able to take more than 10 models makes them an excellent option...if grey hunters could be taken in groups of 15 I would never take BCs either

 

 

I can attest that whenever my grey hunters go assaulting enemy strongpoints they simply can't take it in the long term while the bloodclaws can.

your math is off. if you buy a LR , then you can buy a second squad of GH in a rhino . then check who loses more models . 15 BC in a LR or 2 units of 10 GH in rhinos. 1 target vs 4 . being able to pop a wall. even if a rhino get destroyed cover still can give with the other rhino. if the LR gets poped [and if its a single one it will] the BC have to slogg.

 

I never compared the cost of them with the LRC.... 15 bloodclaws can take more casualties getting to an objective and have more bodies left over to defend it than hunters can... and even if you took 1 unit of 10 hunters and 1 unit of 5 hunters you'd be checking LD very quickly and we don't ignore LD modifiers anymore in combat so having large squads is a huge bonus.

 

at the end of the day bloodclaws make an excellent screen for your grey hunters, make it even harder for wound allocation to get your ICs or WGs in their units, can survive on avg a turn longer than hunters due to their numbers and while assaulting MEQs will kill, model to model, more enemies than a grey hunter can.

 

compare 10 BCs to 10 GHs with WG against MEQs

 

10 gh 30 attacks, 15 hits, 7.5 wounds, 2.5 dead

 

10 BCs 40 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 3.3 dead

 

and that's if you go model to model while on the counter charge they are identical but the BCs will lose more casualties than the hunters

 

so hunters have a roll and claws have a roll...if your using your hunters for the claws role then your wasting hunters and losing out on extra bodies and attacks and getting LD checks sooner.

 

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[Grey Mage]

Ok, so I was wrong. When I was building a list I meshed Shrike's abilities with the SoH somehow, and I went "What?! Kick ass." Thus, the idea of a leader pulling 15 models from a flank and doing some serious damage is, well ... kick ass! BUT, I have been humiliated. Time for some vindication somewhere. :lol: Sorry Grey Mage, can't expand, I failed miserably.

 

But I am the OR guy, thank you for catching that.

 

The thing, the strength, I am seeing of the BC is that they are a troop option. With SM, their equivalent unit is JP-less Assault marines. The CC ability of the BC is unmatched vs SM AM, and it's packed (pun intended) into a troop option. That is a HUGE advantage. The trick is that to get 100% use of the unit is to charge another unit. An extra attack on the charge and hitting other marines on a 4+ (which they would do if they were WS4) = awesome. And they can have max 15 in one squad, even better. I'm not suggesting that a useful BC squad *must* be 15 strong, just that the OPTION makes them better.

 

Net effect: open Fast attack options, you know, the real assault units or something like that. Sure, the Skyclaws and Swiftwinds are still "Blood Claws", but what is that: almost full marines, +1 A on the charge, full attacks +1 being charged, high mobility. Awesome.

 

Did they lose weapon options from 3rd ed? Yes, boo hoo. No MotW, boo hoo again because that makes sense! God forbid GW enforces some fluff into the army list.

 

Bottom line: the BCs are not gimped, they don't suck. They can fill a niche and allow for a different kind of playstyle from C:SM. You know, like the Codex is supposed to do. I have to admit, the GH *ARE* the better unit between the two. And competatively speaking they are the ... safest ... choice. Am I going to use GH? You bet. Will I also use BC, yep! Will I settle my opinion on one game, no. Somedays they will suck, some days they will win - just like Tactical Marines.

compare 10 BCs to 10 GHs with WG against MEQs

 

10 gh 30 attacks, 15 hits, 7.5 wounds, 2.5 dead

 

10 BCs 40 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 3.3 dead

Vs 10 Tactical Marines:

10 Assault Marines- PF Seargent only.

10 Bloodclaws- PF model only.

 

Assault marines fire bolt pistols- 10 shots, S4 AP 4, on a 3+. Followed by 3 Powerfist attacks and 27 S4 attacks hitting on a 4+ and wounding on a 4+

 

Bloodclaws- cant fire bolt pistols, because they are in assault range. Assault in- 3 powerfist attacks, 36 S4 attacks hitting on a 4+ and wounding on a 4+.

 

The assault marines are an attack higher.

 

Though your right.... if you put the points into them... it looks a bit different.

 

15 Bloodclaws with a PF and PW+BP WG- 16 Bolt Pistols, as above. Followed by 3 Powerfist attacks, 56 S 4 attacks hitting and wounding on a 4+, and 4 PW attacks hitting and wounding on a 4+.

 

Its alot nicer. Of course, assault marines can get closer faster and avoid enemy firepower easier in many scenarios... but bloodclaws can be screened, or screen other units... etc. Theres alot of angles to this debate.

 

I Prefer Grey Hunters. I always have. I recognize that BCs took a huge hit in the new codex- and alot of people are reacting as Id expect them to by throwing the unit accross their mental rooms in disgust. Are BCs useless? No. Will I find a GH unit better in almost every situation? Yes, much like I did before.

[Valerian]

To be honest, the main reason that I am going to take a pack of Blood Claws is because I've got a pack of 12 all painted and ready to go. I thought I was going to have to make some major changes until I realized that I can just use the two Power Axes in the pack as normal CCWs. So now I've got exactly what I need in the pack: one Flamer and one Power Fist with no changes, swapping of arms, or repainting required.

 

I think that is another good reason to take them, go with what you've got.

 

Valerian

[Ikken]

I have been tooling around with the new codex , and was disappointing by the blood claws , at first , but I do think the ability to have a 15 man squad , + 1 WGPL , + 1 wolf priest makes them a scary unit . 17 models 67 attacks and I4 with good Armour , and good leadership, re rolling misses .

 

 

kitting them out with 1 pwr fist , and the WGPL with a power fist and the rune priest has a power fist. 3 pwr fists total

I am going from memory , but I figure this unit would cost about 410 points give or take .

 

fire 17 pistol shots , then assault in

on the charge that is 56 s4 ws 3 attacks at I 4 , 8 PW attacks at I4 , the rune priest giving prefered enamy so you re role any misses , plus 3 PF attacks at I 1 with re role misses if anything survived the 1st wave .

 

this unit will eat ork hordes or any other horde infantry for lunch .

i would think even against space marines would do well .

against other space marines ,

shoot 1st , and you will hopefully kill 1 maybe 2 marines with 17 shots , assault in with the re roles everyone hitting on 4s I figure roughly 29 hits + say 5 power fist hits after re roles

that should be about 10 normal wounds , say 4 pwr fist wounds .

figure 4 dead from failed armor saves , and 4 pwr fist wounds . 80 % of the marine squad is wiped out round 1 if you have had any luck in the shooting phase at all , he should be wiped out , and because of wound allocation there is a decent chance (1 in 3 )that his pwr fist didn't survive to go on I 1 with your pwr fist .

 

I think the key is you have to run them with a horde mentality , quantity over quality . look at them as a PWR Klaw ( sorry fist ) delivery mechanism , don't worry about getting stuck in, you want to kill quick and move on to the next target .

 

even after the 1st big battle you should still have a squad of around 10 blood claws , 1 wgpl and 1 rune priest , which is still a serious threat to anything on the board as many units will be chewed up by that time and hopefully won't be at full strength .

 

I haven't tested this yet but it looks good on paper .

[Death Dealer 101]

I agree bloodclaws are good but for the same point cost grey hunter are superior. More flexible, don't rely on the charge, take less casualties in combat and can actually shoot if needed. It seems with blood claws that to make them effective you really need to add extra points to them, they need a wolfguard so they can actually shoot, they need a transport, preferabley a crusader and when spendign so many points other things in the codex are far more killy, so blood claws only saving grace is that they are troops.

 

Every one that has been saying that blood claws become more effective when you beef them up is correct but by the same theory kitting out grey hunters with MOTW, banner powerfist and a wolfguard with fist are once again better. Spending more points on the blood claws still doesn't make up for the fact that they aren't as good.

Some maths, sorry if any is wrong but it does show the point. Comparing equal points cost because you can't compare a 15 man tooled up squad of bloodclaws to grey hunters as they cost more points. All counter attacks work.

 

5 blood claws charge 5 grey hunters

Claws 4 attacks 1.666666667 dead hunters

Hunters 3 attacks 1.666666667 dead claws

Even, not great for a combat unit charging.

 

5 Grey hunters charge 5 blood claws, neglecting shooting as this makes it far to unfair

Hunters 3 attacks 1.666666667 dead claws

Claws 3 attacks 1.25 dead hunters

Whallop, even without shooting

 

5 Grey hunters charge guardsmen shwoing that yes that WS3 does make a difference

Hunters shoot 2.222222222 dead guard

Hunters assault 4.444444444 dead guard

Guard stike back anf maybe kill a model

 

5 blood claws charge guardsmen

Claws 4.444444444 dead guard

Same so, still not much better for bloodclaws

Guard stike back and kill more than agaisnt grey hunter (Yes blood claws WS3 is not a written of facter than many say because they are still hitting on 4 agaisnt marines, but everything else hits you easier and you hit less agaisnt GEK

 

So all this shows that if you want too take bloodclaws then do so they still are good looking and fun, but if you want a more competitive unit grey hunters all the way. Why spend more points making blood claws better when you can get more grey hunters.