The Great Landraider Debate

[number6]

For the same reason (making the game fun) i doubt i'll field a Sanctuary Inquisitor, even though it would totally screw over the opposing Daemon player.

Well, you do want to actually play a game. I don't take Sanctuary for exactly the same reasons. I don't want to win because I brought the "EASY" button. Sanctuary is, effectively, a broken power that should be banned, errata'd, something. But GW won't do that, of course.

[guillaume]

I don't take Sanctuary for exactly the same reasons. I don't want to win because I brought the "EASY" button. Sanctuary is, effectively, a broken power that should be banned, errata'd, something. But GW won't do that, of course.

 

For the sake of argument, and slightly off topic, I would like to say that there is point at which dumbing down one's army for playing's sake isn't fair.

 

I have always made armies that were fluffy, and incorporated gear that, to me, felt like the embodiment of the DH. For example, my BC always takes sacred incense. Because it feels right. A complete waste of 10pts when fighting orks, but I have a take-all army list which I just whisk out of the bag when i find an opponent at my local game store.

 

To say that sanctuary should be banned, is like saying that WH HQ should not give out faith points....it is what makes them truly unique after all.

 

For a Daemonhunter Inquisitor, I believe it is entirely NORMAL and in fact EXPECTED that he/she would be very apt at dealing with daemons. Sanctuary is the proof of that.

 

Whilst sanctuary may seem unfair to current all-daemon armies, it's not like we are piling on the Inquisitors with sanctuary either. Elite inquisitors still have to pass a successful Ld test of 8 , which isn't a guarantee either. The roll is likely to fail at some point, and then the daemon player will have its revenge! Whilst Inq lords are better at it, they are more expensive.

 

If anything, playing a 1500pts list with 3 LR is the epitome of unfun armies. I pulled this stunt once and saw my opponent face dropped. We stopped after turn 4 because he had nothing on the table that could open the LR. What an awesome game that was for him and me!

[Lungboy]

If anything, playing a 1500pts list with 3 LR is the epitome of unfun armies. I pulled this stunt once and saw my opponent face dropped. We stopped after turn 4 because he had nothing on the table that could open the LR. What an awesome game that was for him and me!

 

Aye, this is exactly what i was getting at. 1 LR at 1250, supported by a pair of Dreads seems a fair and fun (for both parties) way to go.

 

Back to the issue in the OP, i'm still yet to be convinced that a Crusader is better than the Vraks Redeemer.

[Archon_77]

For the same reason (making the game fun) i doubt i'll field a Sanctuary Inquisitor, even though it would totally screw over the opposing Daemon player.

Well, you do want to actually play a game. I don't take Sanctuary for exactly the same reasons. I don't want to win because I brought the "EASY" button. Sanctuary is, effectively, a broken power that should be banned, errata'd, something. But GW won't do that, of course.

 

 

I'm rather puzzled by your comments here number6, Is it not enough that everything we have is horribly out of date and easily crushed by the newer codices if played correctly? I consider sanc one of the very few perks we have and true tools we have that make GK unique (also do not forget that it only works against ONE other army). I also liken this to your slippery slope argument for "beardy"; when do we stop using our other "broken" skills? I mean, no one else in the game right now has smoke that ignores pens.... or a psychic hood with unlimited range.... or weapons that "remove outright".... how far should we go to even the field so to speak, when it is already stacked against us? Perhaps it is the more competitive than prefereable nature of my local gaming group, but I badly need some of the abilities that others would consider "broken" to even stay competitive.

[number6]

IMHO, Sanctuary is "too good". There is quite literally nothing that daemons can do about it. Take it on an I-lord, mount him in a raider -- which is already a vehicle that is nearly an "auto-win" button vs daemosn as it is -- and you will win the game, period, end of story. I know because I've done this, and it just isn't any fun.

 

See the "Boundaries of Playing to Win" section in Part 1 of Sirlin's "Playing to Win" article for what I'm talking about.

 

Some things really are just broken. Sanctuary qualifies in my book. I know it's fluffy, but that doesn't mean it isn't broken.

 

* Sanctuary has no counter from the army that it affects.

* Land raiders have several obvious counters that are available to every 40K army. You just have to use them. ^_^

 

That is why I don't consider land raider spam "beardy" but sanctuary to be "very beardy", bordering almost on cheating.

 

For the record, I always try to fit in sacred incense, too, for the same reasons you do, guillaume. :D

[Doomaflatchi]

I'm rather puzzled by your comments here number6, Is it not enough that everything we have is horribly out of date and easily crushed by the newer codices if played correctly? I consider sanc one of the very few perks we have and true tools we have that make GK unique (also do not forget that it only works against ONE other army). I also liken this to your slippery slope argument for "beardy"; when do we stop using our other "broken" skills? I mean, no one else in the game right now has smoke that ignores pens.... or a psychic hood with unlimited range.... or weapons that "remove outright".... how far should we go to even the field so to speak, when it is already stacked against us? Perhaps it is the more competitive than prefereable nature of my local gaming group, but I badly need some of the abilities that others would consider "broken" to even stay competitive.

That's just it, I think - it's a significant advantage against ONE army. To me, regardless of how powerful it is, that's the definition of "unbalanced".

 

Granted, several other pieces of Grey Knight wargear are also tailored to one army, but they're usually things similar to what other armies have access to, and we just get them against a limited scope of enemies. I think the issue with Sanctuary specifically is that no other option in our Codex is a game changing as it is, so when it's brought to bear against the one army it affects (which has NO way to counter it) it feels a little unfair.

[SamaNagol]

It is only a 3" range and it effectively turns your Inquisitor into a statue.

[number6]

It is only a 3" range and it effectively turns your Inquisitor into a statue.

Put him in a land raider or land raider crusader and then get back to me.

[SamaNagol]

It would still count as moving.

[- 7eAL -]

It would still count as moving.

A stationary Godhammer can fire all weapons.

[number6]

It would still count as moving.

This is not really a true limitation. Sanctuary is THAT GOOD.

 

Stick a GK Hero with Sanctuary in one raider. Stick an I-lord with mystics and Sanctuary in a 2nd raider. Add elite Inquisitors in raiders as well as points permit.

 

Stick the rest of your army in the 6" safeties created between your Sanctuaried raiders. Win the game.

[templargdt]

Back to the point about the Land Raiders, I think the Crusader is preferred due to the fact it's more potent killing tanks than the GH with the multimelta. Lascannons are simply not an efficent weapon to destroy something with high AV, especially in cover (which is easy to arrange, even with something that large.)

 

The other part, the frag launchers, I think matters a great deal. It's the only way to get your Knights grenades and I really want those.

 

BTW, yes the IA GK Redeemer is nice, but with out the multimelta I don't want it. Your tank hunting capabilities are thin to start with. If I was playing with 3 Raiders I might consider it.

[Gibious]

Now I have played a few battles with one, I can add that a crusader does still come with a melta-gun. It may not pop 1-2 tanks a turn while staying safe distance away. But it can still do its main job of Transporting GK's to the enemys pressure point while putting 12 re-roll bolter rounds into light infantry. Co-op with machine spirit it can then at the same time attempt to pop tanks. 3 different tasks from one unit. And all able to be used wihtout overly hindering the others.

 

-Gib-

[SamaNagol]

I would take the GK Redeemer in a heart beat if it came with the option of a Multi Melta. Hell, I'd put a Multi Melta on every single GH LR if I could, like the C:SM version.

 

This is one of the things that will be added when they come round to doing the =I= dexes again. Cos anti-tank is sorely needed. If I could run my list with 2 LRCs or LRRs full with GKs and 3 units of ISTs in T/L Lascannon Razorbacks I'd be in hog-heaven.

[Gibious]

That is hoping for the future though. What do you like now?

 

Knowing the expences of LR I am realy having trouple fitting more than one into a competetive 1000pt list. Thats where the Rhinos come in, they provide so much more survivability to you Crusaders by just being an easier target.

 

-Gib-

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

If i could only take one Land Raider, i would take a Phobos. Unless i planned on filling it with Terminators. I don't use GK's so if this is a GK only discussion ignore me. I use a Prometheus for my =][= Lord. For a long time i used a Phobos to transport him but since i run a CC Lord, having to move the Phobos to get the Lord where i wanted him gave me to many hard decisions. The Phobos is best used IMO to Transport a scoring unit like a squad of Tactical Marines, that will force the enemy to come to you while you get to shoot all the weapons every turn. I think the Phobos is the best tank in the game because it can do anything. It is not the Terminator insert-er that the Crusader is but it can get the job done. The Crusader cant be taken as a Transport for a Lord so it is not really a option. If i could take two Land Raiders i would mix, them up. I use 3 in my 2k point Turny list, Phobos, Prometheus, Crusader. I will agree that the Crusader has a number of advantages over the others. Transport value of 16 is hard to pass up, and the Hurricane bolter rules are nice. I compare the tanks as they appear in the new SM codex and IA updates and not as they are in the DH Codex so my views might be a bit off if you only use the DH Codex Raiders. I feel that all Land Raiders are created equal and should use similar rules, the newest. I do understand that it says in the rule book to use the codex if they differ, like the smoke launcher, it just seems wrong.

 

Now about the side argument on Sanctuary. I don't think its is cheap unless abused against a army that you know for sure will have a lot of daemons. In a tournament, there is no guarantee that you will face any daemons at all. I have sanctuary on my =][= Lord and he rides in a LR, but i have yet to even see a daemon in a game. so the fact that i have spent the points to buy the Power, the Familiar so i can have other powers, use a Grimoire, and have sacred incense means i waste points in every game im in. On the off chance i run in to a daemon he will have a nasty surprise but it wont be the wall of anger that #6 talks about. Also there are 5 armies that i can think of that can field a daemon. Daemon, CSM, Necrons, Eldar and DH's (Hive tyrants use to be Daemons...).

[KingDeath]

Regarding sanctuary, it is actualy not that powerfull when you read the Codex's definition of Daemon :rolleyes:

"troughout this codex the term Daemon refers to the following units...

Daemonhosts, Greater Daemons, Daemonpacks, Daemon Beasts, Nurglings..."

 

Lesser daemons should be immune to it since they are not specificaly desribed and Daemonpacks do no longer exist.

Of course i use a RAW interpretation of this rule but i am convinced that RAW would be fair in that case, not only

to prevent a good power from being utterly broken but also because we use RAW to our advantage when it comes to

Nemesis Forceweapons.

[silversmith82]

^That already got discussed. The Chaos Daemons Codex says that everything in there is a daemon, the DH Codex only says that "X units are daemons" but not that they are the ONLY daemons. DH Codex cannot overrule another Codex. Chaos Daemons Codex states specifically that they are daemons, therefore they are. Anyone who tries to rules lawyer their way out of daemons counting as daemons deserves a good swift kick in the nuts as you exclaim "good day sirrah". Conversely, taking sanctuary is pretty lame and I'd never play against someone with the LR/Sanctuary build if I had a Chaos Daemons army.

[number6]

I'm putting the kibosh on the "What Constitutes a Daemon?" debate right here and now. This has been discussed multiple times in the recent past. Use the search function if you want to read them. But that discussion ain't happening here.

[jeffersonian000]

I'm actually finding standard Godhammers to be a better buy versus Daemon armies simply due to Blessed Hull, Sacred Hull and Psycannon Bolts, which allow our Land Raiders to slaughter most daemons easily by either ignoring their saves or penetrating with an effective +1 Strength. Of course, I feel kind of bad when I actually take anti-daemon gear against a daemon army, as it is truly frustration for them as I roll around popping enemy unit after enemy unit while they need 6's to hit if they can even reach the hull on a charge.

 

SJ

[silversmith82]

Very good point about the heavy bolters vs. Daemon armies. However that is a very specific case. This is why rare earth magnets pwn all.

[jeffersonian000]

Indeed. All three of my LR's can be fielded in any of the three standard patterns as well as the Terminus Ultra. I'll be added some Prometheus quad-heavy bolters and a few Helios missile packs to my list of available patterns, too.

 

SJ

[silversmith82]

Yeah, always always always buy the Crusader/Redeemer when you buy a LR since it comes with the standard godhammer parts too. This way you can just magnetize everything and field any pattern you want for specific scenarios. I can't wait until we can get incinerator sponsons. Hell, we CAN with the Vrax book but that usually isn't tournament legal. Still, our Crusader being so great makes up for not getting a Redeemer.

[Gibious]

Yeah, always always always buy the Crusader/Redeemer when you buy a LR since it comes with the standard godhammer parts too. This way you can just magnetize everything and field any pattern you want for specific scenarios. I can't wait until we can get incinerator sponsons. Hell, we CAN with the Vrax book but that usually isn't tournament legal. Still, our Crusader being so great makes up for not getting a Redeemer.

 

Its used to, but not anymore.

 

-Gib-

[fuzbuckle]

Yeah, now you buy the Godhammer and then the $20 upgrade kit. Still cheaper than 2 raiders but not as cool as getting all of the parts in one box.