Horde killing

[Blood brother]

Hey guys possibly have a game vs a horde Ork army coming up and as I usually am on the Orky side and not the SM side I want to run some of my ideas and tactics I was thinking of using and seeing what your opinion is and any hints you might have.

 

My first thought is for deployment. I have Rhinos for all my tactical squads, now the question is that when deploying is it better to deploy disembarked and use the turn to get some full shooting in and embark in turn two when the Orks get closer. This of course is depending on the type of Ork list. A mech list I would not do this for as he can easily cross the board and charge on turn 2. I have heard and mostly agree that taking first turn is a bad idea against most armies but not sure about assault heavy armies like Orks as this gives them too close for comfort.

 

Moving a full Rhino around and forcing him to assault it seems like the best way to draw the Orks into a shoot then charge situation thats in my advantage. I always have a flamer as they are free and hit many targets automatically, so they should be properly thinned out before any charges. Also as a Ork player myself I know very well the huge difference in being assaulted and getting to assault.

I would hold back my assault marines to use as supportive chargers for these Tac traps. They would only be necessary for large units of 20+.

 

Most of these strategies are basically centered around taking away the advantage of numbers and taking away the charge. Any further ideas or comments are welcome, Thanks

[minigun762]

Sounds like you're off to a good start.

Other ideas are:

1) Thin out the horde using ranged anti-infantry firepower, Dakka Predators, Whirlwinds, Land Raider Crusaders, Heavy Bolter Bikes, Gun Dreads etc etc.

2) A continuation of your idea is the Circling the Rhinos. A wall of AV11 does a good job of slowing/funneling the Ork hordes and if you have squads inside, nothing is stopping them from firing out the fire points.

3) You're going to get assaulted, so prepare for it. Some people use sacrificial Combat squads, other people try to out muscle the Orks and dump Fearless wounds on them.

4) Assault Squads with dual Flamers seem tailor made to handle the Ork menance. They can also bust most any piece of armor the Orks have with their Krak Grenades.

5) Its almost always worth it fire your BP's and charge them, instead of rapid firing and recieving the charge. However your best bet is to do both, have one squad rapid fire them then assault with another squad.

6) Alot of Marine bodies on the table will help you weather the storm. If you play too light, you're going to lose your scoring units.

[kaiserstole20]

Depending on the scenario here's something that has worked for me. If you deploy on the long table edges, let your opponent set up first. If he deploys along a wide front, concentrate your forces towards a single short side of the table. The idea is to turn that flank as soon as you can and as close to the short edge as you can.

 

If you can take out his troops opposite yours then instead of facing a broad front 'crashing wave' of orks you are facing a narrow front 'river' of orks - which is much more manageable from a shooty standpoint.

[yodaid764]

I have played against a friend's Ork horde a few times now with some success. One thing I find useful is to send forth a Rhino or two with some assault oriented squads in order to tie up/delay some squads while the rest of my force masses fire on his other units. Usually those squads in the Rhinos wont last the entire battle but every round of keeping the Orks on their half of the table gives me breathing room for my ranged squads to pour massed fire from a safe distance.

[rat of vengence]

Heavy flamers. They kill boyz like nothing else, and even deny biker nobs their cover and armour saves. I have been having a lot of fun with a Landspeeder Storm with a heavy flamer coming in from a flank and toasting a likely squad. You can put one on a dread too.

Normal flamers. Again, they really help thin down the boyz, and can give your squads 4-5 less orks to deal with.

 

What command are you going with? If you have a librarian, the S5 template power really kicks butt too! I run mine with a jump pack with an assault squad.

 

RoV

[Firedrake28]

I normally do this against Tyranids, but it should work just as well against Orks.

 

Deploy your Tactical Squads inside their transports on turn 1. Ideally you don't want to move these transports at all for at least a single turn. Use the Rhinos' fire points to shoot your missile launchers, heavy bolters or plasma cannons at the enemy as they come. Once they're close enough, you can zoom your Rhinos forward a full 12" and turn sideways, presenting the Ork units with two juicy assault targets. They'll almost certainly take the bait and charge - it's fine though, because most Orks will only be glancing your Rhinos on a roll of 6 unless they're carrying a special close combat weapon of some kind, and even the power klaw Nobz will need 6's to hit.

 

Once it's your turn again, you can either hop out of your transports and let the Orks have it with bolters and flamer or stay inside your Rhinos (assuming they're still mobile), move the transport 6" and fire your flamer out of one of the fire points. You should be able to hit tons of models since they'll be all tightly packed together from assaulting your transports.

[Blood brother]

Thanks for the replies guys. Sadly the game will not be happening this week as my opponent is going out of town. However there are some nice ideas in here and I will definitely keep them in mind. I think the "circling Rhino" idea was something along the idea of what I was thinking with my strategy Basically stall the charge as long as I can with my shooting. Not only can I pull his units to where I want them but the stuff behind it will lose their cover if I lure them out of the line of fire.

 

I would definitely take as many heavy flamers as possible since they are perfect for any Orks that arn't wearing Mega armor. Wounds even a boss on a 4+ and no normal or cover saves :sweat:

 

I also wanted some input on what people think of drop pods and Sternguard. I have never used either but I think getting the element of surprise along with a free round of rapid fires could be good. I have also seen a lot of people sing the praises of the Sternguard... This is in general by the way not related to killing any specific army.

[rat of vengence]

I like SG in a pod, but you don't want them to be the only thing in the enemies face, or they will very quickly die.

I run 10, 3 with combimelta and 2 with combiflamer, sergeant with Powerfist. The idea is that depending on the situation (and scatter) I can deploy, combat squad, and melt a tank while at the same time hurting the nearest infantry threat.

But again, leave them out to dry and they will not get you back the points. Consider 3 pods; Sternguard and am Ironclad come down first turn, and provide 2 dangerous targets. Later in the game the 3rd pod with a tactical squad comes in to sit on an objective/flank etc.

 

RoV

[waaanial00]

I love these discussions, especially given that I am both an Ork and Marine player.

 

As you will know the Ork codex is flexible in the extreme and has some really nasty counter units. In this scenario I am talking about Lootas, Grot Artillery and Deffkoptas. Now a number of you might deny my opinions that these are the three biggest threats to a Rhino based Marine army but hear me out.

 

Lootas

 

Well most will agree that these betties are the biggest threat to AV11 at range in the Ork Army. If you are facing off against an Ork player who has an abundance of these then your tactics will have to be a little more careful. If there are a number of these then you would be reckless to throw your Rhinos forwards 12" into counter charge range and count on the 6+ to hit protecting you. Even with smoke you are likely to lose a rhino per large Loota unit.

 

Against this type of unit you are best deployed in your Rhinos at the start but you need to be aware that if you are in LOS to a unit which is 10 or above you are likely to at least be Shaken/Stunned and going nowhere fast for the first turn. If you are against 3x10 lootas then you can happily expect 3 Vehicles to be lost to your battle plans if they have LOS first turn. Having them out of the Rhinos might keep the tanks alive longer but you then might lose more infantry. Eitehr way deploying out of LOS is the best defence against them.

 

Of course bringing things like Thunderfire Cannons and Whirlwinds means that you should be able to mop up this unit in 1 turn of shooting or at least severely weaken their damage output but that counts on getting first turn.

 

Grot Artillert

 

Or more importantly Kannons! These beauties come in units of 3 Artillery pieces each and they hit 50% of the time like a missile launcher. This means that you could have 9 Kraks coming at you turn 1 hitting more efficiently than anything else in the Ork army and over 48" range. All this for half the cost of a terminator each!

 

These beauties will severely hamper any Rhino Rushing within LOS of them and as Lootas you will need to act accordingly. Either get some higher profile units (Dreads or Dakka Preds within LOS) to take the heat off your Rhinos or place them Hull Down. Smoke is a better tactic against this type of shooting because of the volume of fire will be much less than lootas and therefore the number of saves likely will also be less.

 

Deploying out of your Rhinos doesnt really help either because they are AP3 or blast so you either will get some Instant Death AP3 love or lots of S4 hits. Both of which will thin out your infantry fairly quickly. So you are better off deploying in your Rhinos.

 

ZZaaap guns are a wild card. They have the potential to be S10 which means that if you are unlucky you could be very frazzled in first turn. Key is to give them a better option by deploying some infantry within their LOS in cover so that they seem like a better target than the Rhinos.

 

Lobbas are not very good at tank popping but are pinning and S5 (If my creaky memory serves) they are also Barrage and can be fairly accurate due to the multiple barrage rules. Deploy in Rhinos if you see these.

 

Deffkoptas

 

Whilst not everyones cup of tea they are quite common because of the AOBR box including 3 of them. Given that they will either have TL Rokkits (assault S8, AP3) or TL Big Shootas (assault 3, S5) and they are scouting jetbikes you should be a little concerned by them. They are fast enough to get rear shots at Rhinos and if equiped correctly can then follow up with S7 power fist striking your Rear armour. They are also able to pin down small units if there are more than one so staying in Rhinos is definitely a great option.

 

Travelling at speed will help against being charged by buzzsaws but wont help against TL Rokkits.

 

 

In general though sticking in your Rhinos and letting them receive the charge is a good idea. The effects of combat on vehicles is very limited to the marines they transport. The diminished offensive capabilities are overshadowed by avoiding the storm of S4 shots that the Ork army is capable of unleashing. Thinking that Orks can only scrap Rhinos in CC is a little bit unfair, any decent Ork army will include elements more than capable of taking Rhinos out of the picture at range and they arguably have one of the best Elite units capable of wrecking AV11 (Lootas essentially have Heavy D3 Autocannons!) at range, their only problem is that they are still only BS2! This is more than overcome by rate and weight of fire.

 

 

Hope this helps

 

Wan

[Koremu]

Be aware that a large mobs of boyz can surround a Rhino, glance it to death and deny you any place to deploy the squad inside, thus destroying them.

 

Assault Squads come recommended. 2 Flamers, 27 WS4 S4 attacks on the charge, plus whatever the Sergeant has. Plus they are faster than Orks (even Waaargh Fleet Orks, usually). You'll get 8 or 9 kills with the shooting, 7 or 8 in CC, so call it 15 dead in one round, and then another 4 or 5 dead in the second round of combat.

 

Soften the Boyz up with long range fire and then go in with the Flamer, Bolter and Chainsword. Subtlety is not required.

[Grey Mage]

Soften the Boyz up with long range fire and then go in with the Flamer, Bolter and Chainsword. Subtlety is not required.

Thats always worked for me.

 

Whirlwinds, Missile Launchers, bolters.... counter-attack and kill.

[chaplain_quint]

Soften the Boyz up with long range fire and then go in with the Flamer, Bolter and Chainsword. Subtlety is not required.

Thats always worked for me.

 

Whirlwinds, Missile Launchers, bolters.... counter-attack and kill.

Droppodding 10 strong SG with twin heavyflamers and some CF combined with hellfire rounds will wipeout a 30 strong boyz unit in a single turn of shooting. I'll drop in the centre of the mob and deploy as I see fit at the edges, giving me the best angle for my heavy flamers. Combined with Vulkan it turns in to cremeatory.

[waaanial00]

Droppodding 10 strong SG with twin heavyflamers and some CF combined with hellfire rounds will wipeout a 30 strong boyz unit in a single turn of shooting. I'll drop in the centre of the mob and deploy as I see fit at the edges, giving me the best angle for my heavy flamers. Combined with Vulkan it turns in to cremeatory.

 

So thats approx 325 points to kill approx 220. Also after you have killed that single unit of 30 boys you are close enough to get charged and killed by almost every other Ork unit in the army. Though likely you will get shot to pieces to the point where they only need to use one mob to finish you off.

 

Drop podding sternguard unsupported will acheive at most one dead mob and then it will get killed. Drop podding in something like Ironclads is a different story because with twin heavy flamers it will BBQ quite a number of Orks and be tough enough to survive the shooting and force a greater number of attackers to engage it.

 

At approx 190 points podded with twin Heavy Flamers it has a greater chance of killing or seriously maiming a force more expensive than itself and then tarpitting an even greater points value of units that tries to engage it afterwards.

 

Sternguard are good but unless you want a suicide troop they are best used at the tip of a supported strike so that enemies which would seek to destroy them next turn are either engaged or severely damaged.

 

Wan

[Blood brother]

I totally agree about drop podding multiple units in. I know all too well how easy it can be to divide and conquer as a Ork against smaller forces so I would try to drop in groups or next to units already deployed for the most efficiency.

 

I do know how deadly lootas are at killing vehicles. As long as you roll for more then 1 shot with a decent size squad then whatever their target is will usually be toast....Hmmm toast... I always pop transports first with my own Lootas as that usually screws with my opponent the most.

 

How does this sound. 2 Sternguard squads with 10 each. 2 heavy flamers and 2 combimeltas. I wouldn't expect more then 1 good chance to blow up any nearby vehicles so a combi would be the better choice I think. I think the only problem with this is if I equip a PF and locator beacon then its 350 points for all of it. Times 2 squads that's a hefty chunk. Would this be worth basing an army around or is using Tacticals an even trade off for the reduction in points.

[chaplain_quint]

Droppodding 10 strong SG with twin heavyflamers and some CF combined with hellfire rounds will wipeout a 30 strong boyz unit in a single turn of shooting. I'll drop in the centre of the mob and deploy as I see fit at the edges, giving me the best angle for my heavy flamers. Combined with Vulkan it turns in to cremeatory.

 

So thats approx 325 points to kill approx 220. Also after you have killed that single unit of 30 boys you are close enough to get charged and killed by almost every other Ork unit in the army. Though likely you will get shot to pieces to the point where they only need to use one mob to finish you off.

 

Drop podding sternguard unsupported will acheive at most one dead mob and then it will get killed. Drop podding in something like Ironclads is a different story because with twin heavy flamers it will BBQ quite a number of Orks and be tough enough to survive the shooting and force a greater number of attackers to engage it.

 

At approx 190 points podded with twin Heavy Flamers it has a greater chance of killing or seriously maiming a force more expensive than itself and then tarpitting an even greater points value of units that tries to engage it afterwards.

 

Sternguard are good but unless you want a suicide troop they are best used at the tip of a supported strike so that enemies which would seek to destroy them next turn are either engaged or severely damaged.

 

Wan

 

Never ever drop units unsupported, and always and ever drop were you find yourself in a good position to fire away and not getting charged. Yes, that is possible. Typicle Ork armies are so huge that if you position a SG next to one the other cannot charge you, that is if offcourse if you are playing smart and on the flanks.

I cannot agree more on the support, I always drop another squad or dread or whatever in conjunction with the SG. In my army nothing is suicidal.

In a recent tournament I podded the SG in the centre mob and landed behind them, the other 2 mobs where too far away to charge my SG after they roasted the 30 strong mob. Because this player had such a hurry to run everything across the board he actually positioned himself too far away to support his centre mob. the other mobs were mopped up by a flaming assault squad and a haevyflamer dread.

[waaanial00]

Ok so you now have 700 points of Elite units which has, at most, the capability to engage 4 units in a turn (depending on whether they both come down at the same time).

 

Now in order for these to drop at the same time you need another Drop Pod unit. Given that you do not have any troops choice or HQ then you are probably best getting 2 tacticals in either Rhinos or pods. I would say put them in Rhinos because it gives you greater range of mobility and protects your valuable scoring units. Say about 230 each depending on upgrades (I always have a fist and Rhino). This brings you up to 1160, 40 infantry, 2 tanks and 2 drop pods.

 

You still need a HQ and a way of getting the two Stern to drop together. So you go for something like a Librarian for cheap effective power and add to the Stern in order to add to the Templates and give them something like Gate to get them out of the tight spot. Thats 1260, 41 infantry, 2 tanks and 2 drop pods.

 

In order to fix the Sternguard coming together I would suggest a Drop Podded Dread. Something which can dish out a lot of pain and take a bit. In short I think an Ironclad with Heavy Flamers. So thats Approx 1450.

 

What I am trying to highlight in this is that by taking the 20 Sternguard you are really limiting yourself in terms of army size and ability to mutualy support your troops. By dropping short range and engaging with Sternguard you are losing out on valuable shooting time to kill the Orks. You are also dedicating quite a number of elements into the maw of an Ork force very early in the game when it can be easily countered with numbers that they might not have later in when say Rhinos turn up.

 

I think the best way to go would be to throw down 3 Thunderfire cannons or 2 and a Whirlwind. Throw in some Rhino mounted Tacticals backed up with some Rhino mounted Sternguard. Then also add some Landspeeder Typhoons in order to deal with numbers. You can spear head this all with an Assault Squad for counter charging actions. The Ork basically take a great punishment coming across the board turn 1 and 2, you move to meet them turn 3 and then push your charge forwards with close range bolters and Assault Squad counter charges.

 

Still thats just my opinion

 

Wan

[Grey Mage]

Soften the Boyz up with long range fire and then go in with the Flamer, Bolter and Chainsword. Subtlety is not required.

Thats always worked for me.

 

Whirlwinds, Missile Launchers, bolters.... counter-attack and kill.

Droppodding 10 strong SG with twin heavyflamers and some CF combined with hellfire rounds will wipeout a 30 strong boyz unit in a single turn of shooting. I'll drop in the centre of the mob and deploy as I see fit at the edges, giving me the best angle for my heavy flamers. Combined with Vulkan it turns in to cremeatory.

How much was that squad again?

 

Because that Boyz squad with a powerclaw was just over 200... and my math puts it in at 330pts with five-combiflamers and the two heavy flamers as mentioned in a DP. Your also looking at 2 KPs for one.

 

Now, the other 30 strong boyz mob charges in... lets say for sake of argument because your all nicely packed together that they can only get 25 in- you get 20 attacks, 5 wounds, 4 dead orks. 21 Orks attack back- 84 attacks, 42 hits, 21 wounds, 7 dead marines.... not including the powerclaw, wich may or may not be in that 21 who can attack *but probly will be*. You lose by 3, likely as not running away, and with a 50-50 chance of taking three no-retreat wounds when you get caught.

 

So sure, you blast away a big unit of expendable troops with your more expensive in every way elites choice... and then get killed, obliterated even, by its cheap friend sitting right next to it.

 

Dont DP next to normal orks... a balanced DP force can take most orks at range, or atleast deploy in such a manner as to cause havoc in the orks- staight oblieration is almost always out of the question.

[chaplain_quint]

Soften the Boyz up with long range fire and then go in with the Flamer, Bolter and Chainsword. Subtlety is not required.

Thats always worked for me.

 

Whirlwinds, Missile Launchers, bolters.... counter-attack and kill.

Droppodding 10 strong SG with twin heavyflamers and some CF combined with hellfire rounds will wipeout a 30 strong boyz unit in a single turn of shooting. I'll drop in the centre of the mob and deploy as I see fit at the edges, giving me the best angle for my heavy flamers. Combined with Vulkan it turns in to cremeatory.

How much was that squad again?

 

Because that Boyz squad with a powerclaw was just over 200... and my math puts it in at 330pts with five-combiflamers and the two heavy flamers as mentioned in a DP. Your also looking at 2 KPs for one.

 

Now, the other 30 strong boyz mob charges in... lets say for sake of argument because your all nicely packed together that they can only get 25 in- you get 20 attacks, 5 wounds, 4 dead orks. 21 Orks attack back- 84 attacks, 42 hits, 21 wounds, 7 dead marines.... not including the powerclaw, wich may or may not be in that 21 who can attack *but probly will be*. You lose by 3, likely as not running away, and with a 50-50 chance of taking three no-retreat wounds when you get caught.

 

So sure, you blast away a big unit of expendable troops with your more expensive in every way elites choice... and then get killed, obliterated even, by its cheap friend sitting right next to it.

 

Dont DP next to normal orks... a balanced DP force can take most orks at range, or atleast deploy in such a manner as to cause havoc in the orks- staight oblieration is almost always out of the question.

Thats very black and white, isn't it?

I am never static in my tactics. If I were to deploy second and all the orks had rushed ahead in the 1st turn (deploy, move, run) I'd love to drop in the spaces where the orks cannot counter assault me.

If you let orks assault you, you have done something wrong, unless it was all part of the plan.

So DO DP next to normal orks, but don't DP between orks who are close to each other.

 

edit: oh, and this is basicly the same question as a few posts above.

[Brother_Kluft]

Orcs have many play styles, and tons of good builds, but since we are concentrating on Horde the average list would be 3 x 30 boyz (shoota, Pklaw, pole), 10-15 Lootas, ghazkull/warboss, and a fast element (like Nob bikers, deffkoptas etc)

 

 

For me at least, the key to defeating Orcs lies in not letting them get the momentum, both rules wise (furious charge) and game flow wise. In order to do this you need to use space marines how they are in the fluff.... SHOCK TROOPS!

 

Marine First turn

 

1 .Go first, and use a super fast attack element of yours (Speeder storm w/HF, Dread in pod w/HF) to attack his back field lootas. The HFlamer will mess them up huge, and now that you have a big burly thing in his back field, he will have to choose to ignore it (Not a good idea with a heavy flamer) or move units to destroy it. If he moves a heavy unit (Nob bikers) cool you bought yourself some time, if he moves a main-line unit then his "wave" of orcs has a break in it, (which is really good)

 

2. Even with running he can only move max 12 inches, so move TWO of your units into a position that will be at least 13 inches away. Try to have these units on a flank, ideally a tac squad and an assault squad. Pop Smoke.

 

3 . Hold back your heavy hitters (like command squads, TH/SS termies) and ready for a counter charge

 

Orc first turn

 

He will move his boys toward you almost certainly (as cc is where he wants them) but will be out of reach of the rhinos. Hopefully his back field anti tank will be nerfed by now (and you popped smoke also) so your rhinos should be safe. His heavy hitters will be occupied with the dread.

 

Your second turn

 

Jump out of the rhino, position assault squad close to the mob of boys, flame and rapid fire with tacs, flame and pistol with assault squad. Assault the mob with the assault squad. In all likly hood you will totally annihilate the squad with this. When you make the consolidate move, consolidat your assault marines into a protective postion around your tacs, blocking his assault and protecting your scoring unit.

 

 

 

At this point you have obliterated a orc boy squad, and a squad of lootas and have perhaps lost only a dread. Your tac squad is protected by the assault squad (who will now be getting charged by his hammer unit... but you kep your hammer ready for a counter charge right? :( ) A very good position.