WG and GH

[kil78]

So to get the second special weapon in a GH squad it must number 10 models , does that include an attached WG?

[White Hunter]

This topic needs to get FAQ'd. There are people on both sides of this. I think the long discussion of this its back a few pages in the forum now. As for me. I think 10 GH are required to get 2x special weapons, I want the rule to be 9GH and a WG=10 and you get 2x special weapons.

[Yeti]

No it doesn't. You need 10 Grey Hunters. But a WG with combi-weapon adds a third, so it's not that bad.

[Bonham1963]

The WG you add to a GH unit is it's pack leader, so 10 grey hunters, seems the right number. WG isn't a GH.

[King Tiger]

personally I feel the WG does count, once he attaches he is now part of the squad, and makes one of the squads numbers, so 9 GH's and a WG is 10 in my opinion.

 

but I'm sure it WON'T be FAQ'd so GW will keep some of us in the dark as always

[stinkenheim]

when you buy the squads and the upgrades the wolf guard is not a part of the grey hunters and so does not count. it is only during army deployment that he joins it and by then its a bit late for one grey hunter to run back to the thunderhawk to pick up a weapon

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

The whole thing is intended as a trade off. You can get your second special weapon free (Hay, free plasma) or you can get a decked out WG (and if you must a combi, though why anyone would take a one-shot weapon I don't know) Or you can get both, and walk. The whole idea is you can't pay all the points and have everything, which makes sense.

[kil78]

that is what I was thinking, ie WG joins at deployment, so no second weapon when podding with a WG

[rahl02]

personally I feel the WG does count, once he attaches he is now part of the squad, and makes one of the squads numbers, so 9 GH's and a WG is 10 in my opinion.

 

but I'm sure it WON'T be FAQ'd so GW will keep some of us in the dark as always

 

 

It won't be FAQ's since there is no need to. You purchase the WG as part of a squad, same with grey hunters. Then as you deploy little WG Lars gets to bring his assalt cannon to the GH's. Not the other way around.

 

Basically think of it like this. Just before this "fight" breaks out and the wolves have to tear into some chaos scum. The Wolf Lord tells Lars to help out the GH.

 

See the squads have already set up for the battle and brought all the needed weapons before hand.

[The Fenrisian]

Surely it's this simple:

 

A Wolf Guard is what? A Wolf Guard. Is he a Grey Hunter? No.

 

I know I'm probably going to be smacking the heads of the pups in my LGS together over this one. :D

 

It's been discussed loads already, but you don't attach the Wolf Guard when you pick the wargear for your squad, you attach him at the start of the battle, so he won't count towards the 10 GHs when you're making your list up.

[Grey Mage]

personally I feel the WG does count, once he attaches he is now part of the squad, and makes one of the squads numbers, so 9 GH's and a WG is 10 in my opinion.

 

but I'm sure it WON'T be FAQ'd so GW will keep some of us in the dark as always

It doesnt work like this. In order to become attached to the pack, the pack has to already exist. Once its in your army list, the wargear is done.

 

Besides... you place the WG with their units right before the battle.... you can change your mind and not deploy with them, or you can deploy them with different units than you origionally intended if you so please.

[LPetersson]

personally I feel the WG does count, once he attaches he is now part of the squad, and makes one of the squads numbers, so 9 GH's and a WG is 10 in my opinion.

 

but I'm sure it WON'T be FAQ'd so GW will keep some of us in the dark as always

It doesnt work like this. In order to become attached to the pack, the pack has to already exist. Once its in your army list, the wargear is done.

 

Besides... you place the WG with their units right before the battle.... you can change your mind and not deploy with them, or you can deploy them with different units than you origionally intended if you so please.

 

But hang on, here you write:

As Valerian said:

 

No.

 

Nice try though. :). Whenever they are detached to another unit just count them as an upgrade character for that unit... because thats what they are.

 

So, by the second quote, if they're an upgrade character as opposed to a model coming to them from another squad (Which is what is actually happening) then they count as the 10th GH for purposes of the special weapon.

 

IMO, these two are mutually exclusive, Either the Wolf Guard counts as an upgrade character and counts towards the number of special weapons you can have in a squad or he counts as a Wolf Guard with all the attendant extra goodies (can take objectives when Logan is present)...

[Grey Mage]

personally I feel the WG does count, once he attaches he is now part of the squad, and makes one of the squads numbers, so 9 GH's and a WG is 10 in my opinion.

 

but I'm sure it WON'T be FAQ'd so GW will keep some of us in the dark as always

It doesnt work like this. In order to become attached to the pack, the pack has to already exist. Once its in your army list, the wargear is done.

 

Besides... you place the WG with their units right before the battle.... you can change your mind and not deploy with them, or you can deploy them with different units than you origionally intended if you so please.

 

But hang on, here you write:

As Valerian said:

 

No.

 

Nice try though. :). Whenever they are detached to another unit just count them as an upgrade character for that unit... because thats what they are.

 

So, by the second quote, if they're an upgrade character as opposed to a model coming to them from another squad (Which is what is actually happening) then they count as the 10th GH for purposes of the special weapon.

 

IMO, these two are mutually exclusive, Either the Wolf Guard counts as an upgrade character and counts towards the number of special weapons you can have in a squad or he counts as a Wolf Guard with all the attendant extra goodies (can take objectives when Logan is present)...

 

Nah, its simpler than that... I think your over thinking it.

 

You buy GH pack A, and give it the equipment it gets.

 

You buy WG pack B, and give it the equipment it gets.

 

Right before the battle, you detach a WG from pack B and give it to pack A, increasing Pack As numbers... but its already bought and paid for everything... so nothing changes, it just gets the extra guy.

 

The WG isnt an IC, so he cant be targetted, and he has to be part of the unit for all other purposes... because he is in fact 100% part of the unit.

 

It would be sweet if he could be considered for the other weapon, but you already purchased all the options you wanted wanted for GH Pack A. So its to late add another gun.

[Xtee]

personally I feel the WG does count, once he attaches he is now part of the squad, and makes one of the squads numbers, so 9 GH's and a WG is 10 in my opinion.

 

but I'm sure it WON'T be FAQ'd so GW will keep some of us in the dark as always

It doesnt work like this. In order to become attached to the pack, the pack has to already exist. Once its in your army list, the wargear is done.

 

Besides... you place the WG with their units right before the battle.... you can change your mind and not deploy with them, or you can deploy them with different units than you origionally intended if you so please.

 

But hang on, here you write:

As Valerian said:

 

No.

 

Nice try though. <_<. Whenever they are detached to another unit just count them as an upgrade character for that unit... because thats what they are.

 

So, by the second quote, if they're an upgrade character as opposed to a model coming to them from another squad (Which is what is actually happening) then they count as the 10th GH for purposes of the special weapon.

 

IMO, these two are mutually exclusive, Either the Wolf Guard counts as an upgrade character and counts towards the number of special weapons you can have in a squad or he counts as a Wolf Guard with all the attendant extra goodies (can take objectives when Logan is present)...

 

Both his quotes are correct.

 

Once it is attached it is treated as an UPGRADE character and fits all rules with those. He was referring to "thats what it is" on a rule biases I believe, although if you can find something in codex that says you may upgrade one GH to a WG then by all means a WG would make it 10 but only if you find that in a codex.

 

So to Finish this off once and for all

 

BEFORE BATTLE:

 

10 Strong GH Unit (A) With 2 Special weapons.

9 Strong GH unit (:) with 1 special weapon.

 

 

 

BATTLE 1

I deploy MY HQ with GH B

and nothing with GH A

 

 

Battle 2.

I Deploy my WG with GH B

and my HQ with GH A (making it 11 models)

 

Battle 3

I deploy NOTHING with GH B

 

 

etc.

 

Beings where the WG go is OPTIONAL pre battle. You clearly could not reap the bennifits, because there is no rule saying you can ATTATCH it to it IN THE LIST.

 

You may CHOOSE to assosiate the same WG with the same GH squad every battle, but it is a CHOICE and until you choose it he is not there.

[Toasterfree]

the answer is no. a WG is a WG, not a GH. when you buy units you buy wargear, your not buying 9gh+1wg, your buying 10gh to get the free weapon not 9gh and 1 wg

[LPetersson]

Nah, its simpler than that... I think your over thinking it.

 

You buy GH pack A, and give it the equipment it gets.

 

You buy WG pack B, and give it the equipment it gets.

 

Right before the battle, you detach a WG from pack B and give it to pack A, increasing Pack As numbers... but its already bought and paid for everything... so nothing changes, it just gets the extra guy.

 

The WG isnt an IC, so he cant be targetted, and he has to be part of the unit for all other purposes... because he is in fact 100% part of the unit.

 

It would be sweet if he could be considered for the other weapon, but you already purchased all the options you wanted wanted for GH Pack A. So its to late add another gun.

 

Ok, sorry, you misunderstand the reason why I quoted you twice. In the other thread where you said no to Mar Bloodaxe you argue that WG can't claim an objective because it's an upgrade to a unit, and here in this thread you are arguing that they are seperate from the unit rather than an upgrade.

 

My point of view is that WG are either:

1) An upgrade to the unit and for all intents and purposes counts as a GH/LF/BC/whatever including (but not limited to) the extra weapon for having 10 models and can hold objectives if it's the last remaining model left in a squad that can hold objectives.

 

2) A model that is assigned to the squad and doesn't count towards the special weapon for having 10 models in a GH squad and if you have Logan Grimnar, will be able to claim an objective when assigned to a non-objective holding squad becuase he's a troop choice.

 

I see these two options as being mutually exclusive...

[stinkenheim]

a wolf guard does not allow a 9 man grey hunter squad a second free weapon because he is not part of the unit until deployment. by which time you have taken all your weapon choices/unit upgrades and cannot go back and change your army list in any way.

if logan is taken then the wolf guard units are troops, the pack leaders however become part of the unit you attatch hem to. they are no longer part of the scoring wolf guard unit but rather an additional member (to all intents and purposes) of which ever squad you attatch them to.

should the squad be wiped out then the wolf guard pack leader does not become a member of the original wolf guard unit so he cannot count as a troop choice unless the squd he joined is. he will count as whatever slot the unit he joined counted as (bloodclaws- troops, long fangs- heavy etc).

 

its pretty simple, at deployment he becomes an additional member of whatever unit he joins and is deployed with them, cannot leave it, mut stay in coherency and cannot leave it. at no point does he return to being a member of the original wolf guard pack, be it for kill points or in this example claiming objectives.

[maznaz]

Why do I get the feeling that all the guys who are arguing that an attached wolf guard should count towards the grey hunter unit total for special weapon purposes ALSO think that wolf guard should count towards the wolf guard unit numbers for allowed heavy weapons?

 

It's quite obvious which it is, when you think of it that way.

 

Marek

[Toasterfree]

wg=wg wg=/=gh. simple as that even if it is split off to the unit.

[Grey Mage]

Nah, its simpler than that... I think your over thinking it.

 

You buy GH pack A, and give it the equipment it gets.

 

You buy WG pack B, and give it the equipment it gets.

 

Right before the battle, you detach a WG from pack B and give it to pack A, increasing Pack As numbers... but its already bought and paid for everything... so nothing changes, it just gets the extra guy.

 

The WG isnt an IC, so he cant be targetted, and he has to be part of the unit for all other purposes... because he is in fact 100% part of the unit.

 

It would be sweet if he could be considered for the other weapon, but you already purchased all the options you wanted wanted for GH Pack A. So its to late add another gun.

 

Ok, sorry, you misunderstand the reason why I quoted you twice. In the other thread where you said no to Mar Bloodaxe you argue that WG can't claim an objective because it's an upgrade to a unit, and here in this thread you are arguing that they are seperate from the unit rather than an upgrade.

 

My point of view is that WG are either:

1) An upgrade to the unit and for all intents and purposes counts as a GH/LF/BC/whatever including (but not limited to) the extra weapon for having 10 models and can hold objectives if it's the last remaining model left in a squad that can hold objectives.

 

2) A model that is assigned to the squad and doesn't count towards the special weapon for having 10 models in a GH squad and if you have Logan Grimnar, will be able to claim an objective when assigned to a non-objective holding squad becuase he's a troop choice.

 

I see these two options as being mutually exclusive...

No, I didnt- I have always argued that a WG CAN claim objectives if part of a scoring unit. I think youve gotten confused.

 

1) Incorrect- theres no way this is possible. Why? Because when added to a LF pack he still cant purchase a heavy weapon wich he would be Required to do as a long fang.

 

2) Incorrect- He is no longer a "unit of Wolf Gaurd" and thus doesnt meet the requirements to be a troops choice himself. He is merely "a wolfgaurd" wich isnt mentioned. Even if this idea had been valid, it would also be astronomically costly- as it would infer that the Wolf Gaurd, as a seperate unit, couldnt joint the long fangs to begin with and thus invalidate its own rules... and be worth an extra KP per detached WG to boot!

 

Both of these ideas are looking for trouble, and finding it... they cause so many rules problems that are simply unneeded and unnessecairy.

 

Wolf Gaurd are purchased independently of the squad they are attached to, as infered by the fact that they come in their own unit.

 

Wolf Gaurd are then added to a unit at the start of the battle, as stated in the box titled "Pack Leaders" at such a time, because they do not have the IC rule and are now part of this squad they must be part of the squad for all further intentions- including scoring status, killpoints, 50% strength, leadership, close combat, and ale rations.

 

Never forget the ale rations, or atleast some mead.

 

Questions?

[DV8]

I can't believe there are some people who still can't wrap their minds around this, or are still trying to flog a dead horse.

 

You have your list writing stage.

 

You purchase the following:

 

Logan Grimnar

 

5 Wolf Guard

3 Power Fists, Bolters, Meltabombs

Frost Blade, Bolt Pistol, Space Marine Bike

Terminator Armor, Assault Cannon, Mark of the Wulfen

 

9 Grey Hunters

Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen, Rhino

 

9 Grey Hunters

Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen, Rhino

 

10 Grey Hunters

2 Meltaguns, Mark of the Wulfen

 

5 Swiftclaws

 

6 Long Fangs

5 Heavy Bolters

 

Period. You take a look at your Wolf Guard pack. You number 5 models, so you elect to put one in Terminator Armor and give him an Assault Cannon. You take a look at your Grey Hunter squads. You want 2 in Rhinos, and you intend to attach Wolf Guard to all your packs, so 2 of these packs must be 9-strong, and only able to take 1 special weapon. But hey look, you have one pack of 10 that you intend to foot-slog, so they get 2 special weapons.

 

You then go to play your first game, and begin to deploy your units. You decide, oh I want my Long Fangs to be super-dakka, so you attach the Terminator Wolf Guard to the Long Fangs. You attach the Wolf Guard with bike to the Swiftclaws, and each of the Power Fist Wolf Guard go to the Grey Hunters. So what you're deploying is:

 

Logan Grimnar

9 Grey Hunters + Wolf Guard (PF) + Rhino

9 Grey Hunters + Wolf Guard (PF) + Rhino

10 Grey Hunters + Wolf Guard (PF)

5 Swiftclaws + Wolf Guard (Bike)

6 Long Fangs + Wolf Guard (AC)

 

You then go to play your second game, and begin to deploy your units. This time, you want your Long Fangs to have some combat support just in case they get flanked, and you want your walking Grey Hunters to pack a little more punch. So you begin attaching your Wolf Guard as above, but instead you attach the Terminator Wolf Guard to the walking Grey Hunters, and a Power Fist Wolf Guard to the Long Fangs. So what you're deploying is this:

 

Logan Grimnar

9 Grey Hunters + Wolf Guard (PF) + Rhino

9 Grey Hunters + Wolf Guard (PF) + Rhino

10 Grey Hunters + Wolf Guard (AC)

5 Swiftclaws + Wolf Guard (Bike)

6 Long Fangs + Wolf Guard (PF)

 

Now, understand that attaching Wolf Guard happens during deployment, pre-battle, and NOT during the list writing phase. As you begin deploying your list is written, and your units purchased and upgraded for the appropriate points.

 

Also consider the fact that Logan Grimnar makes Wolf Guard Troops (and thus scoring). As Grey Mage mentioned, Wolf Guard attached to squads, once attached, must remain with the squad they are attached to and for all intents and purposes are a part of that squad.

 

So in both situations above, were the Swiftclaws and Long Fangs both be destroyed with only the Wolf Guard remaining in each, they would still count as Fast Attack and Heavy Support respectively. They can contest...they cannot score.

 

One thing to also consider is that were a Wolf Guard pack to have all it's member split off and assigned (so that the Wolf Guard Pack numbers zero models at deployment), it still takes up a slot on the Force Organizational Chart, and also counts as destroyed, thus giving a Kill Point to your opponent automatically. So again in both situations above, while you are only deploying 6 units, the army list itself has 7 units (and thus 7 Kill Points). Since the Wolf Guard Pack is no longer on the table (it has been reduced to zero models because they've all been detached and reassigned), it is treated as destroyed and your opponent starts the game with 1 Kill Point.

 

 

DV8

[Grey Mage]

I have to disagree on but one point-

 

IF all the WG of a squad are detached they do take up an FOC spot, but cannot be destroyed- the unit doesnt exist to be killed off in any fashion.

 

It isnt the absence of a unit that gives a KP, its the actual act of its destruction.

[DV8]

I have to disagree on but one point-

 

IF all the WG of a squad are detached they do take up an FOC spot, but cannot be destroyed- the unit doesnt exist to be killed off in any fashion.

 

It isnt the absence of a unit that gives a KP, its the actual act of its destruction.

 

I don't have the Rulebook handy, so can you quote the rules for Kill Points, in particular with relation to how they are achieved?

 

It would be good to know since every list I have, I assign all of my Wolf Guard away :)

 

 

DV8

[Grey Mage]

I have to disagree on but one point-

 

IF all the WG of a squad are detached they do take up an FOC spot, but cannot be destroyed- the unit doesnt exist to be killed off in any fashion.

 

It isnt the absence of a unit that gives a KP, its the actual act of its destruction.

 

I don't have the Rulebook handy, so can you quote the rules for Kill Points, in particular with relation to how they are achieved?

 

It would be good to know since every list I have, I assign all of my Wolf Guard away :)

 

 

DV8

 

Pg 91, bottom left for reference:

At the end of the game each player receives 1 'kill point' for each enemy unit that has been completely destroyed.

 

If a character has a retinue, then the character and retinue are worth one kill point each.

 

Thats really all there is. However, destroyed is pretty clear in my opinion, and is the result of something become a casualty- wether via enemy firepower, ccw, difficult terrain, DS misshaps.... but not from just joining a squad. After all for movement purposes and shooting pruposes a character is part of the squad theyre in- but an HQ doesnt give a KP for being attached to his friendly tactical marines.

 

While someone might be able to try and aruge that if all the wolf gaurd of a particular squad are killed it counts as a KP I think this is covered under our FAQ from the last edition- WG count as part of the squad they were in for purposes of a KP. They dont give up an extra one, and the "origional" units KP isnt given up until their WG is also slain.

[DV8]

Pg 91, bottom left for reference:

At the end of the game each player receives 1 'kill point' for each enemy unit that has been completely destroyed.

 

If a character has a retinue, then the character and retinue are worth one kill point each.

 

Thats really all there is. However, destroyed is pretty clear in my opinion, and is the result of something become a casualty- wether via enemy firepower, ccw, difficult terrain, DS misshaps.... but not from just joining a squad. After all for movement purposes and shooting pruposes a character is part of the squad theyre in- but an HQ doesnt give a KP for being attached to his friendly tactical marines.

 

While someone might be able to try and aruge that if all the wolf gaurd of a particular squad are killed it counts as a KP I think this is covered under our FAQ from the last edition- WG count as part of the squad they were in for purposes of a KP. They dont give up an extra one, and the "origional" units KP isnt given up until their WG is also slain.

 

Fair enough, although I still think some people will probably argue it for the sake of arguing it (and I can certainly understand why, since the squad ceases to exist, it's all a matter of how). This is one I think GW should just clarify in the FAQ for the sake of clarity.

 

Thanks Grey Mage.

 

 

DV8