White Hunter Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 So taking wolves as Wargear, essentially is like buying 2 wounds for you HQ (if I am reading the codex right). So my question is are they worth it? and if so when? I am thinking that they are 2 meat shields that would provide wounds to soak up powerfists that would otherwise instant death your Wolf Lord. Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181558-wolves-for-the-wolf-lord/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Theyre worth it, IMHO when your footslogging, jumppacking, or biking. In wich case you should take 2, for good measure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181558-wolves-for-the-wolf-lord/#findComment-2149097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Hunter Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 What about if taking a transport, I have a terrible fear that Ragnar or my expenive wolf lord with catch a Power fist to the face and get Insta-deathed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181558-wolves-for-the-wolf-lord/#findComment-2149987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
avatar8481 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 if the Pfist is in BtB with the lord and he allocates his attacks the wolves won't help him stay alive anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181558-wolves-for-the-wolf-lord/#findComment-2150012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Guard Dan Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 if the Pfist is in BtB with the lord and he allocates his attacks the wolves won't help him stay alive anyway. If both the 2 wolves and lord are in base to base with the PF can't you still allocate wounds to the wolves? They are still essentially his bodyguard. And can't the lord allocate wounds against him anyways if they are in base to base? Or does it still go against the unit with the PF? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181558-wolves-for-the-wolf-lord/#findComment-2150076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mar Bloodaxe Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 if the Pfist is in BtB with the lord and he allocates his attacks the wolves won't help him stay alive anyway. If both the 2 wolves and lord are in base to base with the PF can't you still allocate wounds to the wolves? They are still essentially his bodyguard. And can't the lord allocate wounds against him anyways if they are in base to base? Or does it still go against the unit with the PF? No because They do not form a "retinue" as the older codices do. They are a unit not retinue. The retinue rules allow for this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181558-wolves-for-the-wolf-lord/#findComment-2150082 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tiger Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I'd choose none, otherwise I can't join a unit, which is more useful. unlike Tau drones wolves do NOT explicitly say the lord/whatever may still join a unit after purchasing them Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181558-wolves-for-the-wolf-lord/#findComment-2150162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
avatar8481 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I'd choose none, otherwise I can't join a unit, which is more useful. unlike Tau drones wolves do NOT explicitly say the lord/whatever may still join a unit after purchasing them Yeah, that's not totally clear. The RAW in me is inclined to agree with you, but the "hey, that's awesome" in me wants the lord and his wolf buddies to join units. Also, since the LW can take the wolves, and he's specifically prohibited from being joined by other models or being a part of a unit, I'm inclined to think that GW's internal ruling is that all wolves count as 'non-model wargear' for purposes of joining. It needs to be faqqed, because obviously that puts you in a bad place vis-a-vis wound allocation from shooting and CC (as this topic makes clear). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181558-wolves-for-the-wolf-lord/#findComment-2150221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Hunter Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 As I read it (and I have been wrong before :lol: ) The wolves are part of the Lord's wargear, and thus are essentially treated as the same model. My interpretation was that buying the wolves was similar to buying a thunder hammer, but you got a wound and some "wolf profile attacks" when you bought the wolf. I also thought that if an enemy was in base to base contact with the wolves it would be treated as in base to base with the IC. If someone could please correct me if I'm wrong on this, and explain why an IC with wolves wouldn't be able to join another squad I would really appreciate it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181558-wolves-for-the-wolf-lord/#findComment-2150239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I'd choose none, otherwise I can't join a unit, which is more useful. unlike Tau drones wolves do NOT explicitly say the lord/whatever may still join a unit after purchasing them Yeah, that's not totally clear. The RAW in me is inclined to agree with you, but the "hey, that's awesome" in me wants the lord and his wolf buddies to join units. Also, since the LW can take the wolves, and he's specifically prohibited from being joined by other models or being a part of a unit, I'm inclined to think that GW's internal ruling is that all wolves count as 'non-model wargear' for purposes of joining. It needs to be faqqed, because obviously that puts you in a bad place vis-a-vis wound allocation from shooting and CC (as this topic makes clear). Well, until its Faqqed the "Hey thats awesome" should always be taken with a Grain of Salt. Because i t would also be awesome to have a Frostblade on my TDA wolf lord... just like its currently modeled. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181558-wolves-for-the-wolf-lord/#findComment-2150241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Guard Dan Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 As I read it (and I have been wrong before ;) ) The wolves are part of the Lord's wargear, and thus are essentially treated as the same model. My interpretation was that buying the wolves was similar to buying a thunder hammer, but you got a wound and some "wolf profile attacks" when you bought the wolf. I also thought that if an enemy was in base to base contact with the wolves it would be treated as in base to base with the IC. If someone could please correct me if I'm wrong on this, and explain why an IC with wolves wouldn't be able to join another squad I would really appreciate it. This is also how I read it. I do not believe wolves would prohibit a character from joining a unit. Does anyone have a reference from the rulebook to prove either way. From our last codex, we were never prohibted from joining units after taking wolves. I do not think this changed in our current codex. Wolves are wargear. I am going to look through the rulebook for anything that can decide this debate. I do not think there is anything in the codex. I know all attacks can be allocated against a character because he is a character. But I imagine the wolves make the three of them an "Independent Mini-Unit" capable of joining other units and allocating wounds in close combat between the three of them if the character is targetted. I am confused about avatar8481's post. I thought the whole unit had to decide what to attack. I didn't know you could seperate the attacks. Ex: PF attacks lord, rest of unit attack unit. That's how it worked in 3rd edition. I thought it changed in 5th. In 5th I thought all models in CC were considered BtB. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181558-wolves-for-the-wolf-lord/#findComment-2150408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 if you have the independant character rule and are in a close combat you are treated as a seperate unit. the character needs to be in base contact to attack, and can be targeted by anyone in base contact with them. as his wolves are not a retinue, and as the do not function like tau shield drones, i would not use them as 'extra wounds' in combat to take a power fist attack for instance Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181558-wolves-for-the-wolf-lord/#findComment-2150438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Guard Dan Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Ok Thanks. I think I understand it now. I read the Multiple Combat rules so it makes sense to me now. IC's act as a different single model unit so you must be BtB contact to allocate wounds against them (Correct me if I am wrong). Wolves can be used as a diversion model I guess. When you charge, charge the wolves into BtB with any Insta-Death Weapon. Is that plausable? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181558-wolves-for-the-wolf-lord/#findComment-2150447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudelord Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 A few thoughts, I mostly use the wolves to soak up ranged shots (hence why that other guy suggested taking them with footslogging, jump packs, or bikes, and I'll also add for Thunder Cav). For riding in a transport, they take up 2 slots each, and I figure those slots are better left for PA marines (or termy army depending). In regards to taking wolves prevents him from joining a unit. I searched this awhile ago when I started making a few army lists and it did get unofficially FAQ'd back in 3rd ed (I think it was like a B&C compilation that was answered by Pete Haines or something) and he said it was a confusing situation, but the intention was to allow it. I know its unoffical, so that doesn't help everybody, but it's enough for me and my regular gaming group. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181558-wolves-for-the-wolf-lord/#findComment-2150454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamdelgray Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Thought wolves were taken as war gear. Meaning, he (they) is (are) still an IC. Just like Melta bombs, pg. 62 under upgrades and other equipment I believe infers this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181558-wolves-for-the-wolf-lord/#findComment-2150568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Hunter Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 So a wolf lord who takes wolves as wargear can join a unit, however the wolves can not shield him in CC because he is an IC? That doesn't seem right to me. As part of his wargear wouldn't the wolves be the similar as a retinue because the Wolf Lord can't leave them or vice versa? "The rule book says that "Some codex books allow you to field a special unit they cannot leave during the game (normally called a retinue, bodyguard, or other) where this is the case the character counts as an upgrade character. " Now according to my ale soaked brain this means because the wolves must stay within the 2" of the wolf lord they act as a bodyguard for the character, however because he can take the "wolf retinue" as wargear this does not prohibit him from joining another unit." As such the Wolf Lord and wolves could be considered a mini IC unit, allowing allocation of wounds among the three models, and following all the B2B rules of the assault phase. That is my attempt at an explanation, and I need more ale. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181558-wolves-for-the-wolf-lord/#findComment-2150784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Hunter Posted October 14, 2009 Author Share Posted October 14, 2009 Any thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181558-wolves-for-the-wolf-lord/#findComment-2151837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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