Tactical Squad Synergy

[Espada Azul]

Howdy, not really sure if this is the right place (been away for a while) for the question, so if it isn't, can the Moderators please transfer this somewhere else?

 

Anyway, I'm in the middle of repainting my 2000-odd point army, and working on my second Tactical Squad. The first squad I finished sports a 'Codex' configuration (meaning a Flamer and a RPG), but I'm thinking about working the other two squads into 'themes' (using the extra Devastators I had). As a result, Squad number 2 will have a Melta and Lascannon, but I was wondering if the configuration would seem odd to more experienced players, given the disparity of the ranges between the Melta and the Las. Would a Plasmagun be a better choice? I'm asking this NOW while I haven't lathered up the Blood Red on the models (something I do when I'm near the end of the painting process).

 

For the curious, Squad 3 will get a Heavy Bolter and Plasmagun. Hmm.

[DV8]

Howdy, not really sure if this is the right place (been away for a while) for the question, so if it isn't, can the Moderators please transfer this somewhere else?

 

Anyway, I'm in the middle of repainting my 2000-odd point army, and working on my second Tactical Squad. The first squad I finished sports a 'Codex' configuration (meaning a Flamer and a RPG), but I'm thinking about working the other two squads into 'themes' (using the extra Devastators I had). As a result, Squad number 2 will have a Melta and Lascannon, but I was wondering if the configuration would seem odd to more experienced players, given the disparity of the ranges between the Melta and the Las. Would a Plasmagun be a better choice? I'm asking this NOW while I haven't lathered up the Blood Red on the models (something I do when I'm near the end of the painting process).

 

For the curious, Squad 3 will get a Heavy Bolter and Plasmagun. Hmm.

 

Don't forget that you have the option to (if you're using Codex: Space Marines) to "Combat Squad" your units, effectively taking a 10 man squad and making it 2 x 5 man squads (one with Sergeant + Special Weapon, one with Heavy Weapon).

 

It also depends on your style of play. I tend not to mount heavy weapons on my Tactical squads (whenever I use Codex: Space Marines...I usually play as Space Wolves), so I rely more on my special weapons (and prefer the Meltagun above all else), and use Rhinos to allow me to get into position, while my vehicles (usually Land Speeder Typhoons) tend to sit back with the heavier weapons and lend support.

 

 

DV8

[wakerz]

It also depends on who you plan on fighting.

[clanfield]

i team up plas and heavy bolter back a while ago folks liked the las plas combo

 

hope it helps

[Tech Brother Torgo]

One word: magnets!

 

My army has gone through three editions now, and having long ago made the special weapons swappable (among other things including dreadnought arms and tank weapons) has saved me a lot of headaches and unnecessary purchases/painting. Of course this will only save you on the flamer/plasgun/meltagun guys, but if you're doing 3 squads this means 6 less marines to create in order to have all the special weapon options available to everybody.

 

Heavy weapons unfortunately aren't so simple, but I find that you can't go wrong with plasma or the missile launcher. I use MM attack bikes and dreadnoughts/vindicators for most of my anti-tank and usually end up hoping the tacs can either blow up a light transport or take down heavy infantry when it's objective time.

[Espada Azul]

Thanks for the replies. Gives me some food for thought.

 

I'm working with what I have though... Which is to say I have a serious lack of Special Weapons. I have, as of last count, only two Plasma Gun marines and a single Melta. I do have a glut of heavy weapons though (except for a lack of Multimeltas or Plasma Cannons), as I used to run two mixed-weapon Devastator squads in 4th Edition.

 

Using Combat Squads make sense, leaving the half of the squad with the Heavies somewhere safe while sending the rest to harry enemies, but I haven't quite gotten the hang of the 5-man configuration (usually it got me creamed whenever the Shooting phase rolls around). Hmm, better get those Rhinos.

[waaanial00]

A while back I remember reading someones post on this fine forum who was suggesting there are two routes to go down in order to make the most out of tactical marines. These were:

 

Specialise

Cover the bases

 

Specialise is where you pick an enemy and focus on it. For example you can go anti tank and go Multi Melta and Melta gun or you can range match and go Multi Melta and Plasma gun. Or you can go Heavy Bolter and flamer to cope with anti hoard. Basically you chose weapons which compliment each other, either in terms of range, target etc.

 

Obvious benefits are that you hone your unit to combatting one task or operating at one range and stick to it. This means that you are sub par at engaging some units whilst you are great at engaging others.

 

Cover the bases is the opposite theory. You make sure that your unit is capable of taking on most units. The best example of this is Flamer and Missile launcher with a Power Weapon Sergeant and Melta Bombs. This unit is capable of engaging at most ranges and is able to deal with a vast range of enemies over these different ranges.

 

The obvious benefits of this are that your unit has a chance no matter what it meets. Of course the flip side of the coin is that there are a lot of wasted opportunities in this set up and it will never operate as effectively against a given target than a sepcialised unit.

 

Of course with combat tactics you can design a tactical squad which covers the bases together at size 10 and can split down to specialise at combat squad level. Using the example able your Sgt and Flamer would go forward in a Rhino/Razorback, whilst the Missile Launcher sits at range taking shots. Both sub units have specialised to what ranges and enemies they combat the best and it means that they can operate together to compensate for the others draw backs.

 

Hope this helps, its smart advice if you ask me.

 

Wan

[Koremu]

Waaanial00, did you mean this?

[happybounce]

Dude, my recommendation is to run what you think you'll like. It also depends on your style of play- are you a "sit back and shoot" marine player, or are you a "take the fight to them" player?

 

The basis of all my lists for the last few years have been 3-4 squads in rhinos, so I'll tell you what works for me. I HATE combat squading; I'm always outnumbered, and I tend to lose fast if my opponent can take me out piecemeal. I prefer to rush forward, kill whatever's holding an objective with all my marines, and then hold it. If you do something like this, chances are you will be close enough to use the meltagun, but still be able to threaten armored units that are further away.

 

Then again, if you take the fight to 'em you could always use a free multi-melta, but that's besides the point.

 

Combi-weapons are also pretty cool, although I don't think they need to go in every squad.

[Warprat]

This is something I wrote a while back... from Tactical Squad heavy armies.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...145183&st=0

 

 

Warprat ;)

 

(Edited a couple spelling mistakes...)

 

 

 

 

What I find interesting is how Full Squads can be broken down into Combat Squads. How do you make two Combat Squads that are stronger apart than together?

 

My feeling is that generally, you cannot... One large squad, armed with heavy and special will generally always be more flexable and hardy. If armed flexably, able to respond to all situations, at least to a small degree. The strenght of such a flexable squad isn't so much what it does, as much as the threat of what it can do. It cannot be ignored.

 

I think the key may be in specializing Combat Squads. My feeling is that only by specializing can two Combat Squads hope to exceed the strenght of a Full Squad. If the Combat Squads are specialized, it means they will be more effective against certain enemies and less effective against others.

 

The trick, I think, is to build two seperate Combat Squads that can operate well independently in thier specialized roles. And then, find two good Combat Squad builds that can operate together to form a fully flexable Full Squad.

 

 

Lets look at some possible Combat Squads specialized for Anti-Hoard.

 

Special Choices:

1) Flamer and 4 Bolters. (I think this one is a given...)

 

 

Heavy Choices:

1) Missle Laucher and 4 Bolters. (Good against hoards, lightly armor vehicles, medium monsters, MEQ.)

2) Plasma Cannon and 4 Bolters. (Good against everything but heavy armor, costs more, gets hot.)

3) Heavy Bolter and 4 Bolters. (Good against very lightly armed vehicles, hoards, quality troops.)

 

My choice would be:

1) Missle Laucher and 4 Bolters.

 

 

Veteran Sarge Choices:

1) Bolter/CCW, Melta Bomb. (Cheap, expendable, can take on dreads minimally)

2) Combi-flamer, Melta bomb. (Expendable, good against hoards still gets rapid fire Bolter shots, can take on Dreads.)

3) Combi-flamer, Melta bomb, Power Weapon. (The upgraded version.)

4) Combi-flamer, Power Fist (Even better, but may not survive CC to swing the Power Fist.)

 

Given the role of the Combat Squads, and the choices aready made, I would choose:

3) Combi-flamer, Melta bomb, Power Weapon. (Supports Full Squad better)

 

 

 

With the addition of the Sarge, the role of each Combat Squad membership can be determined as each half of the Full Squad is deployed. There is some flexability with the Sarge.

 

Objective Defense: Missle Launcher stays back to guard objective, while others move forward to engage.

Combat Squad 1: Sarge, Flamer, 3 Bolters. (Moves forward to use flamers.)

Combat Squad 2: Missle Launcher 4 Bolters. (Guards Objective.)

 

Equal Advance: Roughly equal squads against hoards. Can advance behind Full Squads to support.

Combat Squad 1: Sarge, Missle Launcher 3 Bolters. (Moves forward to use combi-flamer.)

Combat Squad 2: Flamer, 4 Bolters. (Moves forward to use flamer.)

 

Speed Bump: Sacrifice for time.

Combat Squad 1: Sarge, Missle Launcher, Flamer 2 Bolters. (Stays back, retains flexability.)

Combat Squad 2: 5 Bolters. (The speed bump.)

 

Shielded Advance: Both squads advance together, the Missle Launcher squad slightly in front of the Flamer Squad to shield them. On the turn of delivery, the remnants of the Missle Squad stand still and become shielded, while the Flamer Squad goes forward.

Combat Squad 1: Sarge, Flamer, 3 Bolters. (The Weapon)

Combat Squad 2: Missle Launcher 4 Bolters. (The Shield)

 

 

With the addition of a Rhino, one of the Combat Squads can gain mobility. It can be used as a shield. Loaded troops can make a "Drive By," using the Flamers. If the Rhino makes a sucessful Tank Shock, grouping the enemy togther, the Flamers can do truely horrific damage. The Rhino can re-deploy a squad about to get destroyed. It can contest an ojective. Even if the Rhino is destroyed itself, its remains can shelter troops, (like the Missle Launcher.)

 

Anyway, those are just some examples of the various missions Anti-Hoard Combat Squads could take on. It's only meant to give some ideas... not be an exhaustive tactical primer.

 

 

When the two Combat Squads are not needed for Anti-Hoard, they deploy as one Full Squad. Their specialty and strength is only against Hoards. To regain effectiveness against other enemy types, the squad must become one. So what does the Full Squad look like? What can it do now...?

 

The Full Squad:

Flamer, Missle Launcher, Sarge w/Combi-flamer, Melta bomb, Power Weapon.

 

 

The Holy Bolter... never forget the real strength of a Tactical Squad is its Bolters. They are a universal weapon, and good against most any kind of troop. The Full Squad still retains its Anti-Hoard capability, but is now more well rounded and flexable, able to take on any enemy (at least to a small degree.) Especially with the new addition of Kraks, Frag and Pistols standard. It is durable and can make good use of the Sarge's power weapon. It cannot be discounted by the enemy, and is always a threat.

 

Chances are the Full Squad will take on missions clearing woods, ruins and buildings, thanks to its Pistols. Flamers, Frags and Power Sword, when not battling hoards. Or perhaps it will hang back and flame the enemy as the enemy advances into cover. It would be useful to defend objectives and take on flankers. The addition of a Rhino would provide the mobility to really make this Full Squad shine, and give it protection, for a pretty low price.

 

 

 

Of course, this is just one example of Combat Squads. Other Combat Squads could be optimized for specialized roles as well.

 

1) Anti-MEQ.

2) Anti-Vehicle

3) Anti-Whatever...

 

 

Depending on the needs of the battle, Full Tactical Squads can be broken down into Combat Squads as thier specialty is needed. The members of each Combat Squad are then optimized for the battle ahead. In this way, Combat Squads can individually be worth more than the Full Squad together.

 

And of course, almost all the Marine Full Squads of one type or another such as Devestators and Assults can also break down into Combat Squads and configure the members of thier Combat Squads based on battlefield conditions as well.

[waaanial00]

Waaanial00, did you mean this?

 

Prizes go to Koremu for not only being the person I quoted but actually finding it. Sorry I didnt get the words all right but I think the sentiment was the same.

[Koremu]

Waaanial00, did you mean this?

 

Prizes go to Koremu for not only being the person I quoted but actually finding it. Sorry I didnt get the words all right but I think the sentiment was the same.

Actually I have that link saved. This topic comes up about once a fortnight.

[chapter master 454]

Tacticals to me have two set ups: flamer and plasma cannon or plasma gun and missle launcher. Reason: I have very little faith in melta weaponry except on tanks and melta bombs. To me tacticals are more hinderence because I prefer armour but ofcourse to win anything I've got to take some troops so over time these two sets up have my most faith (flamer and plasma being my favourite). Combat squads are nice but be careful, they can get blasted easily so caution there. Another point is having a rhino or two available, I have suffered from my troop hating in that most of my tanks (not so much now, they are all able to switch between several tanks) are offensive or used in the offensive so I have little transport and foot slogging hurts them. Oh and with rhinos you can effectively have a multi-option turret weapon (2 marines can pop up and say hello with their weapons, so drive bys can be fun).

 

One word though: most people don't like lascannons, tend to be a little too specialised and too expensive considering alternatives (you can get a missle launcher for nothing and you still have an effective tank buster and infantry killer). Lascannons tend to appear when you know your going to face armour (like facing me with 3 land raiders or imperial guard players!)

[Espada Azul]

I feel like there's been a MAJOR misunderstanding here.

 

As I mentioned, I'm working with what I have on hand. Thus I was wondering what kind of Synergy I could get out of the handful of Special Weapons I have: 2 meltaguns, 2 plasma guns, 2 flamers. That's it. I also have only ONE multimelta, but have four-men RPG Devastators, Lascannon Devastators, and Heavy Bolter Devastators I could distribute among the Tacs.

[Koremu]

I feel like there's been a MAJOR misunderstanding here.

 

As I mentioned, I'm working with what I have on hand. Thus I was wondering what kind of Synergy I could get out of the handful of Special Weapons I have: 2 meltaguns, 2 plasma guns, 2 flamers. That's it. I also have only ONE multimelta, but have four-men RPG Devastators, Lascannon Devastators, and Heavy Bolter Devastators I could distribute among the Tacs.

Read the linked post above (or read waaania's paraphrasing of it). In general, use your PG guys if you are planning for the Tactical Squad to hold ground, bunker up and be firing away with Heavy Weapon (and Boltguns). Use one of the other two if you are planning on staying mobile and just lugging a Heavy Weapon along for free.

 

Lascannon/Plasma Gun is an old time favourite for static work, for example, while Meltagun/Heavy Bolter is a more role-flexible mobile response force.

[ShinyRhino]

The flamers synergize well with the missile launchers, because they are both capable of template hits and are FREE. Both are middle-of-the-road options with no major strengths or weaknesses.

Plasmaguns synergize with heavy bolters due to range compliments when standing still. Both are also able to crack light armor, so you're not wasting shots on armored targets.

Not a lot synergizes with lascannons, really. Plasmaguns are the closest fit, due to longest range of the special weapons, and comparable strength of hits. Both can crack armor, though the plasma can't dent AV14. It's a time-honored classic combo that got very expensive in 5th Edition, and therefore fell out of favor.

 

Nothing really fits with the meltagun, due to the abyssmal range. Meltaguns are, in my opinion, bestused when you intend to combat squad. Any heavy weapon can be split away from the special, and the meltagun can ride around in a mobile Rhino to make up for the crappy range.