confused_gordy Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Ok had a look into the iron priest on thunder wolf, and a few different interpretations to the cavalry thing hit me. First off is an iron priest a character? If he isnt, then a thunderwolf doesnt grant him any benefit (as per the thunderwolf wargear entry). Secondly, the iron priests unit type is infantry and this extends to his thralls. If he becomes cavalry what happens to these (do they become cavalry too?) Cheers for your help, these two considerations were nagging at me a little. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181626-problem-with-the-iron-priest-thunderwolf/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 The Iron Priest is a character. He is NOT an Independent Character. So a Thunderwolf Mount grants him all the benefits it would say a Wolf Lord, but the Iron Priest cannot join other units. Iron Priest is Infantry. Thralls are Infantry. Cyberwolves are Cavalry. Taking a Thunderwolf Mount makes the Iron Priest Cavalry. Thralls are still Infantry. Units must move at the speed of the slowest model, which means that on the charge, the Iron Priest (and Cyberwolves) are going to be slowed by the Thralls. They all, however, move and run/fleet at the same speed (Cavalry Fleet, Infantry run). Seems logical that an Iron Priest on a giant wolf wouldn't have his Servitor-Thralls tagging along slowing him down. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181626-problem-with-the-iron-priest-thunderwolf/#findComment-2149968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
confused_gordy Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 that's how I was hoping It worked cheers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181626-problem-with-the-iron-priest-thunderwolf/#findComment-2149974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanaellars Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 still, an Iron Priest and a load of Cyberwolves would be quite scary... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181626-problem-with-the-iron-priest-thunderwolf/#findComment-2149984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 espically if you put it behind a unit of TWC with a WBGL in it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181626-problem-with-the-iron-priest-thunderwolf/#findComment-2150017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG Vrox Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 The next question is if the IP is killed does the Cyber Wolves die or continue on fighting? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181626-problem-with-the-iron-priest-thunderwolf/#findComment-2150060 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 The next question is if the IP is killed does the Cyber Wolves die or continue on fighting? Cyberwolves follow all the rules for Fenrisian Wolves. Page 62, Fenrisian Wolves (and thus Cyberwolves) bought as wargear are removed if the character they were bought for is slain: Cyberwolves use all the same rules as Fenrisian Wolves. ... If a character with Fenrisian Wolves is slain, the wolves are removed too - they are assumed to drag their masters's body to a place of safety. EDIT: I will note that as the Iron Priest is not an Independent Character, there will be very few instances where an Iron Priest will actually die before any Thralls/Cyberwolves purchased for him are all dead. Only particular abilities that allow you to single out individual models (Mind War, Vindicare Assassins, Jaws of the World Wolf, i.e) will actually be able to target the Iron Priest before his peons. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181626-problem-with-the-iron-priest-thunderwolf/#findComment-2150096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG Vrox Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Cyberwolves use all the same rules as Fenrisian Wolves. Where did you read this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181626-problem-with-the-iron-priest-thunderwolf/#findComment-2150144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Cyberwolves use all the same rules as Fenrisian Wolves. Where did you read this? I quoted the page number AND the rule. Page 62 of Codex: Space Wolves, under the Fenrisian Wolf/Cyberwolf entry for Wargear. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181626-problem-with-the-iron-priest-thunderwolf/#findComment-2150147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG Vrox Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 ahh, sorry, I see that now. kinda weird how it stated, almost seems like they are a separate unit with the way the wording is in the following sentence. So whats your opinion on how Servitors behave after the IP dies, no mindlock rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181626-problem-with-the-iron-priest-thunderwolf/#findComment-2150154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 ahh, sorry, I see that now. kinda weird how it stated, almost seems like they are a separate unit with the way the wording is in the following sentence. So whats your opinion on how Servitors behave after the IP dies, no mindlock rule. If on the off-chance the Iron Priest dies first, the Thralls form their own unit. They have their own stat line for a reason (and yes, no Mindlock rule). DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181626-problem-with-the-iron-priest-thunderwolf/#findComment-2150174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
40k Junkie Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 In this unit neither the Thralls or the Cyber Wolves are purchased as "wargear" I do not think these wolves disapear and will need to see more counter points to change my mind. If the Iron Priest dies the Thralls stay, but the wolves dont? They are purchased in the same maner, and both have "statlines" And Go- Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181626-problem-with-the-iron-priest-thunderwolf/#findComment-2150189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG Vrox Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 ok, so cyberwolves can not be purchased as wargear and thus do not conform to the FW rule. This actually makes more sense. The difference is in the wording, A IP can be accompanied by.... A WL can choose any of the following and FW are listed along with other wargear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181626-problem-with-the-iron-priest-thunderwolf/#findComment-2150206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 ok, so cyberwolves can not be purchased as wargear and thus do not conform to the FW rule. This actually makes more sense. The difference is in the wording, A IP can be accompanied by.... A WL can choose any of the following and FW are listed along with other wargear. Upgrades and Other Equipment, page 62, Codex: Space Wolves Fenrisian Wolf/Cyberwolf Some Space Wolves earn the respect and loyalty of Fenrisian Wolves, beasts who will go on to fight by the side of their master on Fenris and beyond. Some of these Fenrisian Wolves are extensively modified due to battle damage or even forged entirely from steel by the Iron Priests. These metallic terrors are called Cyberwolves. Cyberwolves use all the same rules as Fenrisian Wolves. Fenrisian Wolves bought as wargear are separate models with their own profile (see below) and the unit type 'beasts'. If a character with Fenrisian Wolves is slain, the wolves are removed too - they are assumed to drag their master's body to a place of safety. *Insert statlines for Fenrisian Wolves and Cyberwolves* By that statement/rule, you would agree that Cyberwolves bought as Wargear, follow the same rules as Fenrisian Wolves bought as Wargear, yes? And thus were the character they accompany be slain, the character + the wolves are removed from play. Then consider every Space Wolf character that has the option to take Fenrisian Wolves. They are all listed as Options, and thus count as Wargear. The Iron Priest may take up to four Cyberwolves, and up to three Thrall-Servitors, also listed as Options in exactly the same manner as Fenrisian Wolves accompanying other characters. Fenrisian Wolf Pack page 31 and 91, Codex: Space Wolves Here we have an entirely separate listing for Fenrisian Wolves, this time as units. They are not purchased as Wargear and thus not removed when characters die (obviously). There is also two important things to note. The first is the option to purchase a unit upgrade, similar to Sergeants - the Cyberwolf. Two, for the unit "Bestiary" entry on page 31, there is listed also a special rule: Loyal Companions: Fenrisian Wolves that are chosen as part of a character's wargear must always stay within 2" of their master. etc. etc. So here we have explicit mention that Fenrisian Wolves purchased as Wargear are one and the same with Fenrisian Wolves purchased as stand-alone packs, with the important exception that Wargear Wolves are removed if their accompanying character (re: the character the Wolves are purchased for) are slain. Following the logic that Cyberwolves then follow the same pattern, the Cyberwolf purchased as a unit upgrade for Fenrisian Wolf Packs, is one and the same with the Cyberwolf purchased as Wargear for a character, with the exception that Wargear Cyberwolves are removed if their accompanying character is slain. As for Thralls, there are no rules in the Codex: Space Wolves book that say they disappear if the Iron Priest is slain before them. So they remain (and as the Iron Priest is simply just a character, him dieing first is simply like losing a Sergeant first...the rest of the unit remains). That is how I read it. Now, from your perspective. You're right, the Iron Priests' options is stated differently, May be accompanied by... as opposed to May choose any of the following.... But then Ragnar Blackmane and Canis Wolfborn follow the same pattern: Ragnar blackmane may be accompanied by up to two Fenrisian Wolves, Svangir and Ulfgir... Canis Wolfborn may be accompanied by up to two Fenrisian Wolves... Now, assuming we follow your logic, okay. I can accept that Wargear Wolves are different from Accompanying Wolves. HOWEVER, if you're going to treat all these separate units as mutually exclusive (Wolf Packs =/= Accompanying Wolves =/= Wargear Wolves), then you will need separate entries for every different type of Wolf. By my reckoning, there are two: Page 31 and 91 is for Fenrisian Wolf Packs (and upgraded Cyberwolf pack leaders) Page 62 is for Wargear Fenrisian/Cyberwolves. I see no entry for "Accompanying Wolves", and while we assume they have Statlines of their own listed in the respective unit purchase pages, they have no unique model/unit entry anywhere, and would not benefit from Counter-Attack. Cyberwolves and "accompanying" Fenrisian Wolves (for Ragnar) would also only be infantry as their unit type is listed simply as "Infantry". Additionally, since Wargear Wolves are different from Wolf Packs, Wargear Wolves are not bound by the Loyal Companions rule and thus do not need to remain within 2" of the character they were purchased for. EDIT: You cannot claim that the Iron Priest Special Rules apply to his followers to claim Counter-Attack, because by that logic, they would also all be Battle-Smiths, and Ragnar's wolves would grant Insane Bravado, War Howl, as well as possessing Incredible Reflexes. In a similar vein Canis' wolves would also gain Rending, Wrath of the Savage, and Lord of the Wolfkin. If the Iron Priest dies the Thralls stay, but the wolves dont? They are purchased in the same maner, and both have "statlines" The Wolves disappear because (assuming my interpretation is correct), the rules say they do. The rules do not say Thralls disappear so they remain (since the Iron Priest, the Thralls, and the Cyberwolves form a unique "unit"). DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181626-problem-with-the-iron-priest-thunderwolf/#findComment-2150254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG Vrox Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 You make a very strong argument and going by RAW I would have to agree, that is if we all agree that the Iron Priest is a "Character" or is he considered a unit like wolf guard. I can not find the definition of a character by him for for him. Even the BRB does not give a definition that he would fall under. Page 31 and 91 is for Fenrisian Wolf Packs (and upgraded Cyberwolf pack leaders)Page 62 is for Wargear Fenrisian/Cyberwolves I think this is the strongest argument of all, and with that on page 38 and 87, the Iron Priest's cyber wolves get their own profile along with the thralls and IP. In addition the other difference is the unique listing under unit composition; they have the Iron Priest, Cyber Wolves and Thralls to form a unit that can be joined by a IC. I am not trying to power game here I want to play him the right way, but I really do not think GW intended the cyber wolves to die with the IP. Vrox Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181626-problem-with-the-iron-priest-thunderwolf/#findComment-2150717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 You make a very strong argument and going by RAW I would have to agree, that is if we all agree that the Iron Priest is a "Character" or is he considered a unit like wolf guard. I can not find the definition of a character by him for for him. Even the BRB does not give a definition that he would fall under. Sure there is. He is an Infantry Model, and is a unit unto himself (along with any Thralls and Cyberwolves that are purchased for him). He can be joined by any Independent Characters but he himself cannot join units because he as an Independent Character (unlike say Ragnar or Canis). Page 31 and 91 is for Fenrisian Wolf Packs (and upgraded Cyberwolf pack leaders)Page 62 is for Wargear Fenrisian/Cyberwolves I think this is the strongest argument of all, and with that on page 38 and 87, the Iron Priest's cyber wolves get their own profile along with the thralls and IP. They have a stat profile listed with the Iron Priest yes, but no entry or their own to signify that they are a unit unto themselves. As proof, Ragnar and Canis have their Fenrisian Wolf companions listed under their entries too. In addition the other difference is the unique listing under unit composition; they have the Iron Priest, Cyber Wolves and Thralls to form a unit that can be joined by a IC. I am not trying to power game here I want to play him the right way, but I really do not think GW intended the cyber wolves to die with the IP. Vrox Fenrisian Wolves accompanying or bought for characters have always been removed when their characters were slain. I see no reason why that intention would not be the same now considering the existing "Loyal Companions" rule. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181626-problem-with-the-iron-priest-thunderwolf/#findComment-2150782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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