Rockfist

[WG Vrox]

Agreed. The TH rules are for a Special Close Combat Weapon.

 

The Ranged profile Foehammer uses doesn't have the Special Close Combat Rules of a Thunderhammer.

 

Just as Foehammer loses the +1 to the damage table it has for being AP1 when used in CC. Instead, it stuns like a TH.

 

Well, guess I owe that guy an apology. In any case I plan to keep running Arjac Rockfist for a long time.

[DarkPrincess]

The part that's confusing in this argument to me is how it's worded. "The Foehammer is a thunderhammer that can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile:" That means that the ranged stat line follows rules for being a thunderhammer if you look at how the 'dex puts it.. It DOES NOT say "The Foehammer is a thunderhammer AND can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile" it specifies it's a thunderhammer beforehand... It says it IS a thunderhammer that can be used as a ranged weapon.

 

 

My .02

[Chucku]

But it states it's a Thunderhammer that can be thrown.

That's fluff. The rules state only that it's 6", S10, AP1, Assault 1. Thunder hammers, by the way, are not AP1, even when wielded in Arjac's capable hands. So we're finding ourselves drifting farther and farther away from the CCW thunder hammer.

 

I disagree. Under the section on Special Close Combat Weapons in the BRB it states that a Thunder Hammer uses the same rules as a Power Fist. It also says this: "In addition (my emphasis), all models that suffer an unsaved wound from a thunder hammer and are not killed will be knocked reeling, reducing their Initiative to a value of 1 until the end of the next player's Turn..."

 

Codex Space Wolves states that Foehammer "is a thunder hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile..." The profile gives standard info on range, strength, AP, rate of fire, type of fire. That profile does not have to say 'has thunder hammer qualities' because they've already said it.

 

We all know that we take what the codex says over the BRB. Hence it says what it means. Foehammer is a thunder hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon. The profile gives you information on using it as a ranged weapon but does not take away its' thunder hammer qualities. Just as a thunder hammer uses the same rules as a Power Fist with additional qualities it can also be used as a ranged weapon with those same qualities.

 

I'm open to hearing arguments to the contrary but nothing said so far seems to pull this interpretation off of RAW rules.

[WG Vrox]

Ok while we are debating Arjac rules. During the first round of assault Arjac received his +1 A for the Anvil Shield, on the following turn, a separate second unit assaulted into the already going on combat and received their +1 for assulting on the first round.. so it got me thinking.

 

I did not say anything at the time as I thought I would bring it up here first, but would he not get another +1 A during that assault phase as well? The Anvil Shield rule stats during the first round of ANY assault Arjac recieves an additional attack, though it was Arjac's second round, it was the new units first round right .

 

I know I know,, but hey if it's not me bringing this crap up, it will be someone else. Best we discuss it here.

 

Vrox.

[DarkPrincess]

Ok while we are debating Arjac rules. During the first round of assault Arjac received his +1 A for the Anvil Shield, on the following turn, a separate second unit assaulted into the already going on combat and received their +1 for assulting on the first round.. so it got me thinking.

 

I did not say anything at the time as I thought I would bring it up here first, but would he not get another +1 A during that assault phase as well? The Anvil Shield rule stats during the first round of ANY assault Arjac recieves an additional attack, though it was Arjac's second round, it was the new units first round right .

 

I know I know,, but hey if it's not me bringing this crap up, it will be someone else. Best we discuss it here.

 

Vrox.

 

 

That's a LITTLE more definable than the Foehammer issue. It says +1 on FIRST round of any assault..so basically what would happen would be like this... If he was already in CC, and another unit charged in, he WOULD get the +1 attack IF he attacked the NEW unit, but if he was still swinging at the previous unit, it's the 2nd round with it, so he wouldn't...least that's the fair way to play it. You'd have to keep track of what's going on where in CC though...

 

BUT in all the times i've played, I've rarely had this happen in any games other than Apocalypse, because it's not a good strategy in normal games to keep your army piled together that close, you're just begging for a pie plate... So it shouldn't happen too much....and if it happens in a tournament, ask the judge what his call on it would be and run with that...

[Grimtooth]

I disagree. Under the section on Special Close Combat Weapons in the BRB it states that a Thunder Hammer uses the same rules as a Power Fist. It also says this: "In addition (my emphasis), all models that suffer an unsaved wound from a thunder hammer and are not killed will be knocked reeling, reducing their Initiative to a value of 1 until the end of the next player's Turn..."

 

Codex Space Wolves states that Foehammer "is a thunder hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile..." The profile gives standard info on range, strength, AP, rate of fire, type of fire. That profile does not have to say 'has thunder hammer qualities' because they've already said it.

 

We all know that we take what the codex says over the BRB. Hence it says what it means. Foehammer is a thunder hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon. The profile gives you information on using it as a ranged weapon but does not take away its' thunder hammer qualities. Just as a thunder hammer uses the same rules as a Power Fist with additional qualities it can also be used as a ranged weapon with those same qualities.

 

I'm open to hearing arguments to the contrary but nothing said so far seems to pull this interpretation off of RAW rules.

 

When Foehammer is used as a ranged weapon you refer to the specific weapon profile given. Nowhere in the ranged profile does it state that when used as a ranged weapon, unsaved wounds result in a stunned enemy.

 

As was pointed out, if you were to strike a dreadnought in cc with Foehammer, you would not get the +1 to damage roll using the ranged profile of ap1. You would only stun them till the end of the next round as per the weapon profile/rules for thunder hammers. Likewise you would not stun an opponent when using Foehammer as a ranged weapon since it is not included in the ranged weapon profile.

[Chucku]

I disagree. Under the section on Special Close Combat Weapons in the BRB it states that a Thunder Hammer uses the same rules as a Power Fist. It also says this: "In addition (my emphasis), all models that suffer an unsaved wound from a thunder hammer and are not killed will be knocked reeling, reducing their Initiative to a value of 1 until the end of the next player's Turn..."

 

Codex Space Wolves states that Foehammer "is a thunder hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile..." The profile gives standard info on range, strength, AP, rate of fire, type of fire. That profile does not have to say 'has thunder hammer qualities' because they've already said it.

 

We all know that we take what the codex says over the BRB. Hence it says what it means. Foehammer is a thunder hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon. The profile gives you information on using it as a ranged weapon but does not take away its' thunder hammer qualities. Just as a thunder hammer uses the same rules as a Power Fist with additional qualities it can also be used as a ranged weapon with those same qualities.

 

I'm open to hearing arguments to the contrary but nothing said so far seems to pull this interpretation off of RAW rules.

 

When Foehammer is used as a ranged weapon you refer to the specific weapon profile given. Nowhere in the ranged profile does it state that when used as a ranged weapon, unsaved wounds result in a stunned enemy.

 

Also in Codex: Space Wolves is a psychic power called Fury of the Wolf Spirits. It has two shooting attacks, Freki & Geri, for which ranged profiles are provided. Those ranged profiles say nothing about the power's secondary effect of causing a Morale check if a casualty is caused. That's in the description of the power. My thesis is the same with Foehammer, which is called a thunder hammer which can be used as a ranged weapon in its' description and given a ranged weapon profile. Since a thunder hammer by definition causes additional effects such as lowering initiative and shaking vehicles, that applies too.

 

As was pointed out, if you were to strike a dreadnought in cc with Foehammer, you would not get the +1 to damage roll using the ranged profile of ap1. You would only stun them till the end of the next round as per the weapon profile/rules for thunder hammers. Likewise you would not stun an opponent when using Foehammer as a ranged weapon since it is not included in the ranged weapon profile.

 

That's correct, you wouldn't use the ranged profile since in close combat you can't use a ranged weapon. But you'd still treat it as thunder hammer. You can find instances where a simple ranged weapon profile does not have the full description of a ranged attack (as illustrated above).

[Grimtooth]

I disagree. Under the section on Special Close Combat Weapons in the BRB it states that a Thunder Hammer uses the same rules as a Power Fist. It also says this: "In addition (my emphasis), all models that suffer an unsaved wound from a thunder hammer and are not killed will be knocked reeling, reducing their Initiative to a value of 1 until the end of the next player's Turn..."

 

Codex Space Wolves states that Foehammer "is a thunder hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile..." The profile gives standard info on range, strength, AP, rate of fire, type of fire. That profile does not have to say 'has thunder hammer qualities' because they've already said it.

 

We all know that we take what the codex says over the BRB. Hence it says what it means. Foehammer is a thunder hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon. The profile gives you information on using it as a ranged weapon but does not take away its' thunder hammer qualities. Just as a thunder hammer uses the same rules as a Power Fist with additional qualities it can also be used as a ranged weapon with those same qualities.

 

I'm open to hearing arguments to the contrary but nothing said so far seems to pull this interpretation off of RAW rules.

 

When Foehammer is used as a ranged weapon you refer to the specific weapon profile given. Nowhere in the ranged profile does it state that when used as a ranged weapon, unsaved wounds result in a stunned enemy.

 

Also in Codex: Space Wolves is a psychic power called Fury of the Wolf Spirits. It has two shooting attacks, Freki & Geri, for which ranged profiles are provided. Those ranged profiles say nothing about the power's secondary effect of causing a Morale check if a casualty is caused. That's in the description of the power. My thesis is the same with Foehammer, which is called a thunder hammer which can be used as a ranged weapon in its' description and given a ranged weapon profile. Since a thunder hammer by definition causes additional effects such as lowering initiative and shaking vehicles, that applies too.

 

As was pointed out, if you were to strike a dreadnought in cc with Foehammer, you would not get the +1 to damage roll using the ranged profile of ap1. You would only stun them till the end of the next round as per the weapon profile/rules for thunder hammers. Likewise you would not stun an opponent when using Foehammer as a ranged weapon since it is not included in the ranged weapon profile.

 

That's correct, you wouldn't use the ranged profile since in close combat you can't use a ranged weapon. But you'd still treat it as thunder hammer. You can find instances where a simple ranged weapon profile does not have the full description of a ranged attack (as illustrated above).

 

Fury of the Wolf Spirits specifically includes the morale check effect as part of it's ranged weapon profile. Foehammer does not include the stunning effect of a thunder hammer in it's ranged weapon profile. As many have pointed out, it is and only is a short ranged rail gun.

 

Too add a point. You mention that I don't use the ranged profile in close combat since you can't use a ranged weapon in close combat. Well then how are you arguing the reverse? How are you using a close combat weapon in the shooting phase?

[Chucku]

Fury of the Wolf Spirits specifically includes the morale check effect as part of it's ranged weapon profile. Foehammer does not include the stunning effect of a thunder hammer in it's ranged weapon profile. As many have pointed out, it is and only is a short ranged rail gun.

 

But Foehammer's description specifically says it's a thunder hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon just as plainly as you say Fury of the Wolf Spirits specifically includes the morale check effect. Again my thesis is that Foehammer is what the description says it is: a thunder hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon. The ranged profile provides information for using it in the shooting phase but still doesn't detract from it's identity as a thunder hammer, and therefore it's other, normal capabilities.

 

Now, I'm probably wrong here but I'm still looking for a reason that Foehammer loses it's thunder hammer capabilities when it's described as a thunder hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon. Thanks to everyone for trying to clear this up!

[Grimtooth]

Foehammer is identified in the description as a thunder hammer because up till that point in the description it does not tell you what kind of weapon it happens to be.

 

Secondly, the rule says that Foehammer can be used as a ranged weapon, not that it is a thunder hammer that is a ranged weapon. It then goes on to explicitly explain that when used as a ranged weapon it has a 6' range, str10, ap1, and Assault 1.

 

Warhammer 40k is a permissive ruleset. The ranged weapon profile is all you get when you want to use Foehammer as a ranged weapon. Since it does not mention that it stuns when thrown, it does not.

[Chucku]

Okay, we're getting close here. My take is that the codex may be defining Foehammer as being a new type weapon - one that is a thunder hammer usable at range. However you are stating that it has two modes, 1) thunder hammer and 2) ranged weapon with a range profile and no ancillary attributes associated with a thunder hammer. I can buy that and in fact took that to be the case until earlier tonight.

 

But what if Phil Kelly had meant it to retain it's thunder hammer characteristics? The wording here is easy to mistake for that intent!

[Grimtooth]

Okay, we're getting close here. My take is that the codex may be defining Foehammer as being a new type weapon - one that is a thunder hammer usable at range. However you are stating that it has two modes, 1) thunder hammer and 2) ranged weapon with a range profile and no ancillary attributes associated with a thunder hammer. I can buy that and in fact took that to be the case until earlier tonight.

 

But what if Phil Kelly had meant it to retain it's thunder hammer characteristics? The wording here is easy to mistake for that intent!

 

Well it is rune etched weapon with a teleport homer. So it is a new type of weapon that happens to serve dual roles with defined rule sets for each role.

[maznaz]

Okay, we're getting close here. My take is that the codex may be defining Foehammer as being a new type weapon - one that is a thunder hammer usable at range. However you are stating that it has two modes, 1) thunder hammer and 2) ranged weapon with a range profile and no ancillary attributes associated with a thunder hammer. I can buy that and in fact took that to be the case until earlier tonight.

 

But what if Phil Kelly had meant it to retain it's thunder hammer characteristics? The wording here is easy to mistake for that intent!

 

 

No it isn't. Only if you really try hard to read it as such. It is quite specifically "A thunder hammer (rules not listed as you know them) that can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile: (profile given)"*.

 

Again, it's really clear English. It's a close combat weapon that can be used as a ranged weapon with the profile above. It doesn't say anything about counting as a thunder hammer attack when thrown, or "can be used as a ranged weapon with the thunder hammer special rules and the following profile", just a ranged weapon.

 

Quite simple, and quite clear.

 

Marek

 

* parentheses mine

[Oldenhaller]

I'd love it to be true....however if we look at other examples of this wording convention which have been used then we can see that it's effectivly fluff creeping into the rules. Calgar for instrance has "contain an integrated pair of bolters which fire with the following profile". Would you say that becaause they're decribed as bolters they don't use that profile...?

 

~O

[FerociousBeast]

But what if Phil Kelly had meant it to retain it's thunder hammer characteristics? The wording here is easy to mistake for that intent!

If Phil Kelly had meant that then he would have put it in the ranged profile's special rules section like any other weapon that has special rules.

Under the section on Special Close Combat Weapons in the BRB

Stop there. That's the only relevant part to what you wrote. Special Close Combat Weapons.

[smoadia85]

IMO.

 

Foehammer:

CCW = TH profile

 

Range = Range given profile

 

Strictly.

 

If anything all in all no party can come to a absolute conclusion till GW bother to come up with a proper FAQ soon, it's up to you and your opponent to agree.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I think we need to get off the debate on the effect of his Hammer throw, and re-focus the thread on is he worth it and what has he accomplished for lords who have unleashed him in battle.

 

Please cease debating the Thammer throwing.

[WG Vrox]

QUOTE (Chucku)

Under the section on Special Close Combat Weapons in the BRB

Stop there. That's the only relevant part to what you wrote. Special Close Combat Weapons.

 

Come now, if where rules are found within the BRB determines when and where you can use said rule, then we would have to revisit quite a few rules. This alone does not persuade me one way or the other.

[Skoll Brandulf]

So Arjac Rockfist has become the Space Wolf version of Thor (the Marvel Comics version rather then the Norse God version)........

 

Haha.... my thoughts exactly. THHOOORR!

 

He definately looks worth it on paper. Since my SW army is almost all CQC, I will use him for sure.