The case of the firebase

[Atheist]

So , I know that some of you would want to play it , perhaps some of you are trying it in your lists :

 

The firebase

 

By that I mean a carefully chosen piece of cover ( most likely a well placed ruin with clear firing lanes) or other place where you may field some units for long range firepower and mutual support agaist bad guys . I imagine a maximum of two units ( one being a troop ) whose main purpose is to support with long range fire your advancing troops and perhaps guard an objective .

 

I present this case this way , because I mean to include in the discussion the ( considered-as-totally-crappy-choices ) heavy weapon option of the VCSM .

 

So the things I would like to discuss here are :

 

a ) Is the firebase tactic viable ( I can imagine that it is for SM lists , but is it for CSM lists ) ? Which units would you dedicate alongside a troop choice ( 66% of the time defending an objective ) ?

 

b ) Is the one heavy weapon option really worth taking ? How would you tool up a "defensive" troop with long range support and a "guardian of the firebase" role in mind ?

 

c ) Do you believe in losing a round ( or two ) , to establish a special weapons fire base somewhere near mid-table , and how would you choose to defend it ? Is this approach preferred as it fits better with the whole "close combat " theme of our Codex ?

 

I can't say that I have a definite answer to a ) or c ) , and this is why I propose the discussion . I wouldn't mind talking in theory about it but perhaps experience of anyone else should be presented first for all to read .

 

Anyway my short comments are : for a ) I'd say that I 'd really like havocs in the role of the second unit with ML's or AC's ( and if points permit , a 50 point rhino with havoc launcher ) .

 

About c ) I 'd say that it would be much tougher to defend them , so I suppose that it wouldn't worth it and rather go for the "shock"approach ( be it havocs or chosen ) and nevermind camping somewhere were your opponent can reach you easily .

 

About b ) I 'd like to present you this : 10 man strong VCSM troop , lascannon , flamer , champion with combi-plasma , rhino with havoc launcher , at 250 pts , if I'm not mistaken . This together with a 6 man , 3 ML/AC , rhino with havoc launcher at 200 pts would leave you with 1050 points to advance and meet your opponent . In 66% of the time played , you will guard an objective too .

 

I tried to keep it short so as not to tire you .

 

Enlighten me , if you will .

[Corpse.]

Well, what space marines can do, we can essentially do barring the typical units of whirlwinds, special vehicles like baal predators and thunderfire cannons.

 

We can upgrade 6 havoc launchers for the cost of a thunderfire cannon, but requires existing vehicles with the bonus of not taking up a heavy support slot. The existing vehicles can be great to provide cover anywhere to offer 4+ cover saves to our units. Let a lascannon fire around the vehicle so that it can pelt large creatures and vehicles with no LoS block (if it were to fire at troops/etc, it would be a debate since 50% of your squad cant see the enemy they are firing at).

 

So with elite land raiders in the form of transports for 3 terminators, which arguably can still teleport onto the battlefield as long as you deploy the land raider normally and make it clear that your doing so. (Not so much in dawn of war as they are forced to come onto the table WITH their transport) So with a limited chance for termicide if you want a cheaper set of land raider guns in elites. Otherwise outflanking chosen with 4-5 special weapons is also a decent pick for elites. Dreadnoughts not so much though, they can be unreliable and shoot your own stuff.

 

Heavy support is in the air. We have battle cannons, loyalists dont. We can use the long range to surpass the 48" range of the majority of weapons, so having them come in from reserves at the very least gives you a chance to fire them once before they die, and perhaps maybe put them way in the corner out of danger for a few turns. (They are very tall with their cannon line of sight, so they *can* be better fire support then a leman russ of the same cost)

 

Land raiders, predators both can have the havoc launcher upgrade which is a bonus. I love the havoc launcher. Espeiclally on dakkapredators, makes it worthwhile even when they naturally cost more then loyalists. Our vindicator isnt quite as good, but in our army where everything is good in melee we can actually be more aggressive with them without sweating over the idea of using them as a defensive vehicle.

 

Our havocs have two things going for them. One is the icon, rerolling leadership and being near our table edge is leagues better then ATSKNF in case something is close. On top of the defensive icons in a larger unit of 12, making them dead hard to remove. If you gear them against tanks, add a rhino to block the bolter dudes and give them 4+ cover saves and toughness 5, very difficult unit at 12 models and LD10 possible. Or be more leadership based. The second thing is that they can make their own dent in the enemy at short range, even melee, so you can in fact leave them alone to be charged by a bunch of assault marines and feel confident they have a fighting chance! You could pack lots of plasma guns and be aggressive, lots of flamers, and so on.

 

Obliterators are a love and hate relationship. You can hide them, move and shoot, and abuse lots of things including lanes of fire. The hate part is instant death, having to guard them, and possibly depend on them far too much with some lists. Either way, they're proven units through and through, good in all areas of combat.

 

Our HQ's, mainly lash and the tzeentch daemon weapon are both very good ranged models. One depends on other units to blast things after stuffing them together. The other depends on just staying back with his buddies, not super effective but its an option to use that forced-to-take HQ a ranged attack he has a 4+ inv save if he rolls a 1 on.

 

Troops, well... We have sonics, AP3 bolters, massing marine bodies, tough marines and generally I would say almost every category we need if we wanted to change it up. Its entirely up to the owner what he wants though, I prefer noise marines for my ranged combat.

 

 

Plenty. But, I would have to say this, DONT depend on the terrain setting to always be in your favor, thats what rhinos are for. To be there when you need them to cover your units 50% and more.

 

We don't get fancy skimmers with multimeltas, but we sure beat them out with termicide and other such units that can perform as such.

[Zeller]

Haven't tried it before as CSM. I have used the tactic with my blood angels. I'm certainly one to transfer tactics from army to army with equivalent units.

 

1) Possible, depends whether your're fighting an IG artillery group or not. I would dedicate either a dakka pred or a vindicator.

 

2) Could be. Stay cheap. Heavy bolter or missile launcher. I'd run a 10-man squad with champ, plasma pistol, heavy bolter, flamer. (the pistol is merely a preference and I have no evidence to proves its worth one way or another)

 

3) No. I will not bother forming special weapon firebases. Given the nature of special weapons I would rather have them up with my vanguard forces than sitting on an objective. All squads without heavy weapons are moving every turn unless a 24-inch shot presents itself.

 

Havoc squads are kept between 10 and 5 men mounted in rhinos armed with 4 of a given weapon. At the moment I field a heavy bolter havoc squad. I have a pair of auto cannons awaiting a squad. Eventually I'd like to field 4 of them in the same manner as the heavy bolter squad. The last squad would probably be 4 las cannons. Overwhelming firepower supporting a massive infantry wave of CSMs and terminators.

[Atheist]

@ Corpse. I 'll disagree on two points :

 

a ) The SM can do what was proposed in the first post better , due to a thunderfire cannon and a techmarine that allows an improved cover save . I believe that a thunderfire cannon coupled with some tooled up snipers may make an excellent anti-infantry fire base ( which is the same thing I proposed but with a different role ) for less points I think and with a better cc potential than the thing I presented . Plus its worst cover save is 3+ ( while the snipers may very well have down to 2+ ) . If you include heavy weapons combat squads I think we can admit that they beat us in this kind of deployment tactic .

 

b ) Having played recently with the defilers I must say that cornering them would be an extreme option ( used only if severely outgunned ) because this way you lose any other contesting . tank hunting , tieing up units potential and focus on a 150 points battle cannon that may miss ( mine have on many occasions ) . I believe they are meant to advance and fire contonuously distracting the enemy . Only when you face an enormous number of anti-tank weaponry should you resort to cornering them . At least this is what I think .

 

I will also partly disagree about the comment on terrain : While you are right about the rhinos , you can always set up things the way you want ( for example , by placing objectives ) so that your ruin based "firebase" will have adequate fire lanes . You obviously face a problem if no appropriate piece of terrain exists in your Deployment zone for the above proposed approach on the "firebase" .

 

@ Zeller , I always approach lists form an all-comers perspective . The lascannon is cheap enough for its 20 points cost . If only havocs could pay for theirs at 20 points ...

[the jeske]

ok . first of all . what does that lascanons suppose to do ? becausa it aint anti tank , you would need 6-8 of those for that . the whole havocks +cms unit formation costs 1/3 of the whole army and it still wont help against shoty armie[eldar/IG/tau] . its static so the army is broken up to begin with [that is something normally your opponent tries to achive and not get for free] weaker attack means harder time against other csm or sw armies .

the comes the problem with builds. havocks with auto canons do ntohing to LR or lemans , the RL can hurt it but to realiablly do so you would need to run 8-12 RL [so 2-3 havock units with 4 hvies each]. the havocks also dont come free . if one does take them and the pimped out rhinos , then there is not points for termicid and/or for oblits. [both units actually do something to av14].

 

then there is the replacment units . 10 man csm with 2 plasma and lets go wild a combi plasma too . more effective on 18" range , just as good 24"range , less fire power at more then 24" [but that is why chaos runs plasma canons oblits]. its also less static and in match ups where you have to move it can keep up with the rest of the force[havocks and las armed csm techniclly can too, but then its 4 hvy weapons wasted per turn].

 

when one considers that both units have to move[teh hvy weapon one and the one with two specials] to reach an objective the unit with two specials works better . to have a semi working army with hvy weapons one would have to go for 3-4 squads with hvies 2 squads of havocks and 2 5 man of chosen with hvies too.

[Atheist]

So what you say actually confirms that this codex is more one dimensional than ever .

 

Any other approach is next to unplayable .

 

Am I correct the jeske ?

[Brother Evar]

a ) Is the firebase tactic viable ( I can imagine that it is for SM lists , but is it for CSM lists ) ? Which units would you dedicate alongside a troop choice ( 66% of the time defending an objective ) ?

 

Havocks w/ all HB's or x2 ML x2 AC, x8 strong nothing else or MoCG if they come under fire a lot. Also x6 man w/x3 HB cheap to sit on an objective next to a CSM troop squad. Or x3 termi's w/ x2 combi plasma and RA, can move and shoot because termi's move + fire heavies. Also x6 Noise marines w/ blastmaster may be useful in some situations.

 

b ) Is the one heavy weapon option really worth taking ? How would you tool up a "defensive" troop with long range support and a "guardian of the firebase" role in mind ?

 

No HW for CSM squads. CSM's are very similar to the revised SW grey hunters due to many similarities because they do the following VERY well-

- Medium range shooting (12-24')

- Holding objectives

- Can be a tarpit in CC as they are very surviveable. Locks an enemy unit in for a counter charge.

 

If I was forced to take a HW however, it would be a HB as I would still be able to move and not be too worried if it did not fire. That would not be the case with the other HW options though. The unit would have a PF champ, a MG or flamer and MoCG to stay sitting where its needed. This way you can still assault an enemy instead of recieving the charge. In a lot of cases its better to shoot with pistols and assault weapons then charge- like against orks. This would be my "defensive" troop with long range support.

 

The "guardian of the firebase" one is easy- x2 PG, PF champ w/ Combi melta, IoCG, unit strength 10-12. Can Stand and shoot or absorb most enemy charges.

 

c ) Do you believe in losing a round ( or two ) , to establish a special weapons fire base somewhere near mid-table , and how would you choose to defend it ? Is this approach preferred as it fits better with the whole "close combat " theme of our Codex ?

 

It depends on who you play. For example a havock squad w/ rhino IoK, x4 melta, PF champ w/ combi melta, x10 men would freak out any mech list if sped to the middle of the table- and any nearby MEQ's on foot nearby. Switch melta's for flamers and Hoard army's freak out. Never tried it though have heard such a unit is better on the move than sitting in cover plazing away. Attack can be a valid form of defence as well. If you are keen on the fire base thing I sugesst paying attention to my previous answer in a) and tooling up CSM squads as I mentioned in :huh:, otherwise I just do not see it working for Chaos.

 

++ EDIT- I took ages to post, but the others before me do have very good points. I was just trying to solve the problem with infantry exclusively. I love my infantry. :) :) ++

[Muskie]

I've been runing havocs in various configs and losing at tournaments for years. I now think for you heavy support choice you want move and fire heavy weapons.

 

You can get the odd heavy weapon from troops or elites. It is too bad the chaos fast attack can't get heavy weapons, in some armies I'm thinking Sentinals and Warwalkers those are real dangerous shooting troops that can flank or just set up in a good spot and blaze away...

 

Sure they're fragile, but if they take out your long range fire quickly it can be a long march across the board.

 

My new list has four troops at 1500 points, 3 squads in rhinos plus chosen in a rhino. I have two tactical squads, plus plaguemarine and noisemarines in my hypothetical list I'm building towards.

 

I don't want to give it all away, but I have zero havoc squads. Chosen can have even more special weapons if that is your goal, plus drive on from the side...

[EVIL INC]

Of course, it all depends on your overall playstyle and the tactics you use once "in game". I use havocs and do quite well. Won several tourneys using them. Not to say they are great, just great if they fit your playstyle.

I would suggest experimenting and finding out on your own.

On the firebase, I would not put too many in any single one as then that one building becomes a huge fire magnet. I would suggest making 2 or 3 firebases (if you have the "shootyness") so that you can cover several firelanes and so that they can support one another. Works very well for me and has won me many games.

I generally play a "shooty" army. You dont AVE to have a full on assault list to win. I find my firebases providing cover fire for my assault units help make dern sure they make it to where they need to go and do a dern good job of softening the enemy up for when they make it. I use the shooty units to capture and hold the close objectives and my assault units to take and/or contest ones my enemy control/are in no man's land.

[Corpse.]

@ Corpse. I 'll disagree on two points :

 

a ) The SM can do what was proposed in the first post better , due to a thunderfire cannon and a techmarine that allows an improved cover save . I believe that a thunderfire cannon coupled with some tooled up snipers may make an excellent anti-infantry fire base ( which is the same thing I proposed but with a different role ) for less points I think and with a better cc potential than the thing I presented . Plus its worst cover save is 3+ ( while the snipers may very well have down to 2+ ) . If you include heavy weapons combat squads I think we can admit that they beat us in this kind of deployment tactic .

 

b ) Having played recently with the defilers I must say that cornering them would be an extreme option ( used only if severely outgunned ) because this way you lose any other contesting . tank hunting , tieing up units potential and focus on a 150 points battle cannon that may miss ( mine have on many occasions ) . I believe they are meant to advance and fire contonuously distracting the enemy . Only when you face an enormous number of anti-tank weaponry should you resort to cornering them . At least this is what I think .

 

I will also partly disagree about the comment on terrain : While you are right about the rhinos , you can always set up things the way you want ( for example , by placing objectives ) so that your ruin based "firebase" will have adequate fire lanes . You obviously face a problem if no appropriate piece of terrain exists in your Deployment zone for the above proposed approach on the "firebase" .

 

@ Zeller , I always approach lists form an all-comers perspective . The lascannon is cheap enough for its 20 points cost . If only havocs could pay for theirs at 20 points ...

 

 

Well, its a case by case scenario on who owns what terrain available to you. There are 14 tables where I play and not nearly enough line of sight blocking terrain to cover them all with our standard 25% agreement. (cover 25% of the table in pure terrain to know you have 25%, then take turns placing the terrain on the table after removing all pieces after measuring 25%)

 

Some days all we can get are little pieces, while other days a player will ask to play in desert related terrain or hilly terrain where line of sight can be thrown off by merely moving 4" in one direction to remove someone's 4+ cover save (or 5%, its that obscured, cant hide *directly* behind the hill as its a a hill, not a 90 degree angle "hill")

 

You can rely on rhinos because you actually bring them. You cant also rely on your ability to arrive on the corner or side table you want to be on. Remember, there are corner deployment zones and even dawn of war. What will the havocs do if they need two difficult terrain tests to get where they need to be? One rhino moving them there would be all they need and a one dangerous terrain roll for immobilization, even then you get out 2"(3" because its like coherency, barely touching the deployment 2" with the back end of the 1" base they are on) then run the models after disembarking, that surely is more distance even if the vehicle is immobilized near your table edge, because its 4" long and with 2" disembark(3") your nearly 6" onto the table because of it, which is far better then rolling 2 dice hoping for a 6 on difficult terrain. Run is not hindered by terrain other then impassible.

 

And even if the rhino is fine, able to move, and not needed for the rear firing units, it has other uses. I had once moved one in front of a thunderfire cannon, blocking its view entirely. He had placed it in so called terrain (only the master of the forge can bolster a piece of... eheh.... one type of terrain of a dozen types - *buildings*). Cant rely on being able to have a building available on both sides of the table to rely on a 100+ point model that gets eaten up in melee and takes up a HQ slot.

 

Thunderfire cannon suffers a blow its pretty much gone, and its too large to hide properly. Heck it cant be properly hidden behind a rhino! (Try it, you can see the top easily and fire at it behind the rhino)

 

With cover negating, let me say this. Its better off for a scout unit with sniper rifles to sit behind other marines and fire behind them. Shooting at monstrous creatures they can plainly see, because they don't get cover saves. Yet your scouts will indeed get saves because they are behind a unit, a unit you bought and put there and can always rely on at the start of the game to be there in most cases. (Dont pull out some random case of psyker battle squad or lash, that can't be helped, use a rhino if its that troublesome). The scouts with stealth cloaks will get a 3+ cover save, superior to 3+ armor save as it cannot be negated. The marines will be closer because of bolter range, where they should be if your a fireline army. You cant place all your scouts in two buildings either, as most buildings can only hold two full scout units at best, what if you went against a whirlwind or a hellhound or something similar? You would lose lots of scouts bundling them into a building with no spread between the bases. And what about moving them for objectives? If you make an army around scouts, how will they get there? A rhino based army that uses rhinos for terrain will probly have one or two left at the end of the game if they're used just for terrain. Mostly because they will still be terrain when they die unless they explode. Even a rule covers adding a crater for the men that was behind the rhino, to run into the crater for the same cover save, except now its a permicover save that you need frag/assault grenades to negate the cover advantage charging them.

 

Rhinos as cover offer far too many potential benefits, even allowing the two usual guns in a troop squad of marine to fire out of it like a bunker when it can be applied, like facing tons of gaunts that dont have toxin sacs, run 6" a turn tank shocking them out of the way (to bundle them together) and use a flamer? Wow, you can get 8 models under the template, killing at least 4+ on average. (thats 40 points a shot, four of those and the squad almost paid for itself!)

 

 

The game is not depending on the terrain you put down, rather what you bring to the table and how you can use it. Marines can funnel fire by spliting the enemy with vehicles, dead or alive they can force the enemy shooting line to move to get more shots. Firing with marines is a mobile event in many cases. Rapid fire helps them get their cost back and if you hit hard in an area where it cant fight back effectively, and render the rest of the enemy army unable to shoot your soft spots effectively then your fighting a battle on your terms, not theirs. Most gunline armies don't move well, and often skip vehicles (or movile firing vehicles) for static firepower. The marines way to victory is mobile firepower.

 

Obliterators, Defilers, special weapon havocs, str4 havoc launcher firing with a predators main weapon and dirge caster to force -1 leadership on tank shocks, all can be applied to a certain tactic or theme. All can be mobile if required to be, though some more effective then others. You can hide oblits behind a rhino. You can fire over your rhinos with a defiler, while using the rhino as enough obscurity to give the defiler a 4+ / 5+ obscurity save.

 

Rhinos are terrain. I can't emphasize that enough.

 

Though, I agree we're the better short range type of firepower then long range. Loyalist marines have that much, I can say this though. 3 defilers are better then 3 TFC's in most cases if you accustom your army to them. I rather have AP3 that can see over rhinos then a ground level TFC that fires a bunch of smaller blasts. Since we have the many-small-GEQ removing units in our troop choices already covering that. What will all your bolters do, if your TFC take up your hard hitting heavy support slots? Rely on your land speeders for anti tank? Thats a pretty big shift if you want to build an army around anti troop heavy support. I would rather magnetize some predators for dakka predators, that also come with a havoc launcher, and is harder to kill, for just 15 points more. Put a rhino in front of it, just right, and you can fire 1 heavy bolter, the autocannon and havoc launcher while getting the 4+ obscurity save in return. (Sacrifice one heavy bolter pretty much for 4+ cover). Cant do that with the TFC easily. Unless you depend on all terrain being in your favor every single game, no matter what terrain is available to you at any given time if any. Unless that is you travel with your own terrain, which then I can understand.

 

But it may be just a case of vastly different situations from both our ends. I find IG players pick their 50% of terrain to be more obsticle related (barrier style walls/impassible terrain models cant be placed on) while facing tau players, I find more jungles they can fire past and have their kroot hide in or have their men get 4+ cover in. While facing eldar, I find more buildings tall enough to hide their skimmers behind, hide their 2+ cover save pathfinders inside. Facing tyranids I find similar forest and impassible terrain they can have their shooty models with flesh hooks stand on while being impervious to assaults without models that can move into impassible terrain. Even several times I face a large lake using chimera loving IG player, who sits them in the water with nobody inside and the rest of his force dancing around in vendettas or in reserves ready to outflank with a large unit of 50 guardsmen with First rank fire, second rank fire with a combined unit, the ensuring fire of 80+ lasgun shots you take removes entire squads of 5 terminators alone. Then add the 5 plasma guns he puts in that unit, and 5 power weapons+eviscerator priest and several power weapon commisars.

 

remember the opponent can pick 50% of the terrain used on the table. He could even screw up your buildings you place by putting even bigger pieces of terrain in front of it! (I have seen that many times, angering the scout/ranger players that love doing it so much). I have even done so, because the fella bragged too much that he cant be beat. So even common players would do such things if given a reason.

 

I wont depend on the lay of the land to be my defense is all I'm saying here. Rhinos make up for that greatly.

[DuskRaider]

I've actually started using Havocs again for the first time since the previous edition. I'll run a squad of 8 w/ 2x ML, an AC, and an LC, plus a Champion w/ PF and PP, Icon of Khorne. This is for my World Eaters army, mind you. What this does is, coupled with my Tactical Squad w/ Melta and HB, takes the pressure off of my 'Zerkers in Rhinos, giving them time to come close to the enemy line or an objective. I've used this well against IG in the past. All squads in Rhinos, rush 4 'Zerker packed Rhinos up toward the enemy line, pop their smoke launchers. Drop the Havocs off in the backfield, seeing as they all have heavy weapons with a range of 48", they can deal damage from a distance. The Tactical squad rolls up to some viable terrain and unloads their light fire (not including the HB, which does a number on weenie troops).

 

The next turn, I'll roll the 'Zerkers to the enemy's front line, make a half circle, and unload them in the middle. I've gotten lucky with no ordnance hitting them, although I could see that being potentially VERY fatal. *shrugs*. Any case, you get a 4+ cover save from your Rhinos (if the enemy can get a bead on you at all), next turn send the Rhinos into the enemy, tank shock them, and charge with your 'Zerkers. Hilarity ensues, and 32 Berserkers just wiped out 60+ IG in one turn. The end. :lol:

[the jeske]

So what you say actually confirms that this codex is more one dimensional than ever .

 

Any other approach is next to unplayable .

 

Am I correct the jeske ?

well depends how you look for it . but for me a list should maximize what it can do . If 1/3 or 1/4 of the army is shoty and more or less static , the rest of the army should be shoty [ but not static , if its possible] too.

 

it is always a case of overloading your opponents abilty to counter stuff or his resilinent. he plays mecha ? he ignores long range fire power unless its something like 9+hvy weapons with los to his rhino line , then you take something like SW and start runing long fangs with 12 or 15 RL on top of the normal melta guns in squads . your opponent is dead shoty , well he can be dead shoty but when you have 60-80 boyz and two biker nobz units he may have problems with shoting them fast enough.

 

a shoty chaos army would have to be something like 3 squads of csm . plasma/autocannon . 2 havocks units 6-7 man strong with RL . as many havock launcher rhinos as fit for the points played . one suicide lord [slany with mount would be best to counter biker nobz]. a lot of shots to counter meq mecha builds , enough shots and bodies to give IG and orks time to think about trading fire . But auto lose against LR rush builds , huge problems with demons if they get their proper wave on turn 1 . problems with chaos on chaos mirror matches because of lack of lash [maybe a way to counter that would be 2 sorc with lash , without wing ???] . but the build feels very much like a static version of a NM water warrior list.

[Corpse.]

I'm a little surprised that you suggest a lord, even for suicide. (I suggest wingless princes sometimes to take hits) so thats cool.

 

I'll toss a tacklebuild out there.

5 Marines with flamer+havoc rhino=130

~5 krak grenades for taking vehicles that prefer indirect fire, no 40 point fist upgrade required (squad costs 80), also a tie up unit for countering firepower armies. Tank shock+havoc launcher&Flamer from hatch makes great anti horde thats annoying to stop. 5 models enhance having the rhino being killed by melee charge, easier to fit 5 models out of one hatch thats the opposite end of the assaulters with an anti-cover area effect weapon versus a no-consolodate assault. (very nasty)

 

6 Havocs, with 4 autocannons+havoc rhino=220

Typical insta-kill entire heavy weapons teams and ruin a tau's 30" range army build. Put them where they kill things at 48", only AV12 and under targets needed, troops and monsters included. It will kill its cost eventually if not quickly battering down AV10 targets or units like howling banshees.

 

Bikes/Raptors with pair of meltas, raptors suggested unless you like the 24". Both hide behind the wave of rhinos easily, and always gets their guns on target when aggressive. (almost always) Using the rhinos to pin other vehicles where possible to make krak grenades easily assaulting is not enough (skimmers that are hard to take down with the autocannons/land raider rear 14 etc) the raptors and/or bikes will take care of the rest. Squad size not an issue because of hiding behind a wave of rhino spam.

 

I saw this work before and works an angle I don't see worked often with marines. Invigorating to see odd lists work well with a well, dubious codex such as ours. Feels almost loyalist.

[Possessed Marine]

As for making a firebase, I do it with (call me crazy) a Land Raider and a Havoc squad and sometimes I'll have a Demon Prince w/ bolt of change & wings standing around. I've had some pretty good stuff happen with this configuration, if I need to bug out there's a transport right there that also lays down a decent amount of fire. About the only way to even get close is to Drop pod / deep strike right into the lion's den, alot of times I might have a squad of csm's w/ cc weapons & MOK nearby for just such an eventuallity. And just for giggles, I might DS some Oblit's right behind their firebase.

[minigun762]

well depends how you look for it . but for me a list should maximize what it can do . If 1/3 or 1/4 of the army is shoty and more or less static , the rest of the army should be shoty [ but not static , if its possible] too.

 

I can understand that logic, but I'm not sure if I would agree with it.

 

In my eyes, a list has to be more then one-dimensional. Few people would agree that 5-6 squads of Rhino mounted Berserkers would be an optimal build but that is an army that maximizes the one thing it can do (in this case assault).

Most of us would say that the army could be made stronger by removing a squad or two and replacing it with some ranged firepower to kill their transports or some close range Melta squads to kill their heavy armor.

Those other units are diluting the one-dimensional focus of the list, but they're adding new capabilities so that in the end, the army is better at doing what it intended to do.

 

In that logic, a firebase section isn't a waste of points unless it doesn't help your army do what its supposed to do better.

 

I know that personally, I'm playing with the idea of a heavy weapon CSM squad in a HavocBack and using that squad to hold objectives and provide firepower down range. It also has a backup role for dealing with any annoying deepstriking/outflanking units like Termicide that come in and try to split the attention of my army.

[deepstrike]

well depends how you look for it . but for me a list should maximize what it can do . If 1/3 or 1/4 of the army is shoty and more or less static , the rest of the army should be shoty [ but not static , if its possible] too.

 

I can understand that logic, but I'm not sure if I would agree with it.

 

In my eyes, a list has to be more then one-dimensional. Few people would agree that 5-6 squads of Rhino mounted Berserkers would be an optimal build but that is an army that maximizes the one thing it can do (in this case assault).

Most of us would say that the army could be made stronger by removing a squad or two and replacing it with some ranged firepower to kill their transports or some close range Melta squads to kill their heavy armor.

Those other units are diluting the one-dimensional focus of the list, but they're adding new capabilities so that in the end, the army is better at doing what it intended to do.

 

In that logic, a firebase section isn't a waste of points unless it doesn't help your army do what its supposed to do better.

 

I know that personally, I'm playing with the idea of a heavy weapon CSM squad in a HavocBack and using that squad to hold objectives and provide firepower down range. It also has a backup role for dealing with any annoying deepstriking/outflanking units like Termicide that come in and try to split the attention of my army.

 

Without ranged firepower to eliminate transports you will struggle against alot of prevailing army builds. I use a CSM squad las, plas, with asp champ with plas pistol in a havocback to cover objectives and eliminate enemy troops that have moved behind my assault wave. Otherwise I have to double back to engage all the deep strikers, outflankers and fast skimmers appearing behind my line. Speed, survivabilty and firepower working in tandem with preds work fine for me.