Death Dealer 101 Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Greetings So i was looking at canis and decided that he looks rather powerful, has many attacks, many speacial rules and is rather cheap for what he does. Being similar in cost to a wolflord on TWM with claws but canis gets all the niffty add ons. Well my question is this, comparing Wolflord Canis thunderwolf thunderwolf frost blade 2 claws storm shield wolfthooth necklace 200 wolf tail talisman saga of wolfkin thingy 185 Basically is Canis's lack of an invulnerable worth all the other stuff he brings to the table and his cheapness. Invulnerable is really only a problem in combat where armour ingnoring weapons can hurt him. Or is is T5 and 3W enough not too worring about it. His 7 strenght 5 attacks on the charge with re-rolls seems so good for bargin points and he can realy make a mess of most things and he always hits on 3's. But the wolflord strikes at strenght 6 with nearly as many attacks has no re-rolls but his a lot more survivable, has a higher WS so hitting on 3's most of the time unless facing character but this is where is 3++ comes into its own. So canis puts the hurt on standard infantry better but if he runs into a powerful character his lack of an invulnerable really hurts him. My logic is that if i run with a unit of thunderwulf cav they already provide a ridiculass amount of high strength attacks so canis would be overkill or would split off and assault another target maximising impact. But this puts hin the positon where his lack of an invuln could hurt him. What are everyones thoughts on the matter, experiences. Thanks in advance Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181884-caniswolflord-on-twm/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrathnar Flintfang Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 I wouldn't be too worried about him, but honestly I would rather do a 'regular' lord on a mount with the runic and a frost weapon. It costs more if built right, but does end up as pretty resistant, and with warrior born you get more attacks on the back end. True you can't reroll which is the downside but S6 can insta-kill alot of different troop types, and since you can get a wolf tooth necklace to hit and the frost weapon is a power weapon he could easily start turning anything without an Invulnerable save into mulch. Canis might do about the same, but really he loses out on a shooting attack, which can always end up as a lucky potshot, and I don't think he can rack up the same level of hits as a properly built lord. If you want to run an all-wolf army (as in the animals) then go for it i guess, but honestly you can end up doing alot better, and without having to take an 'heroic character' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181884-caniswolflord-on-twm/#findComment-2152766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbaron997 Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Another thing is that Canis only has Ldr 8, so its more likely they will break if things turn south, or a bad roll on a shooting ldr test. Overall I think the WL is better if you got the points to spend, but you could make worse investments than Canis, hes alright. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181884-caniswolflord-on-twm/#findComment-2152768 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 I'm not a great fan of Canis. He's special rules are poop (Need to get 6 or more minis in base contact, and if you're running wolves then you'll be using the Saga of the Wolfkin for I5 so upping thier Ld from 7-8 isn't a great deal. You'll want to run a Marine IC with the Wolves, just for giving them ATSKNF), and for his cost, you could get more TWC. But he does have Rending Wolf Claws. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181884-caniswolflord-on-twm/#findComment-2152785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death Dealer 101 Posted October 15, 2009 Author Share Posted October 15, 2009 Thanks for the quick replies guys. Yes you all are correct and present good cases the WL does seem the better option, being S6 slightly makes up for the lack of re-rolls and an attack but the storm shield is really too good to pass up. And i believe that is the deciding factor. The LD is also a problem as canis can run into some things that he will strugle to hurt and will be hurt back easily, ie facing off against a Frost weapon and SS lord wiith TWM. The lord only needs to win by one wound and cais could be off and running. The last point is that you can as stated give the WL more equipment and make him far better. However for a cheap nasty unit canis is great and a no brainer if building a claws lord on wolf. But the Frost weapon and Storm shield combo seem rather good. Oh the frost weapon would get rending as well wouldn't it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181884-caniswolflord-on-twm/#findComment-2152792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrathnar Flintfang Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Thanks for the quick replies guys. Yes you all are correct and present good cases the WL does seem the better option, being S6 slightly makes up for the lack of re-rolls and an attack but the storm shield is really too good to pass up. And i believe that is the deciding factor. The LD is also a problem as canis can run into some things that he will strugle to hurt and will be hurt back easily, ie facing off against a Frost weapon and SS lord wiith TWM. The lord only needs to win by one wound and cais could be off and running. The last point is that you can as stated give the WL more equipment and make him far better. However for a cheap nasty unit canis is great and a no brainer if building a claws lord on wolf. But the Frost weapon and Storm shield combo seem rather good. Oh the frost weapon would get rending as well wouldn't it? Honeslty, grab a belt instead of a shield and keep the bolt pistol. The extra attacks can add up, especially with the saga, and in most cases putting a WL in runic will make the normal attacks save against a +2. Its cheaper too from what I remember, so in exchange for one point of Invulnerable save you get a bolt or plasma pistol to take a pot shot, and then 7 attacks when charging, 6 without. Maybe give him some thunderwolf backup cav... you have yourself a meal! And no it would not get rending, but if you spring for Melta bombs you will be fine, heck in most cases just hit the back armor and you should have a good chance of popping something with one attack.. Very few things at that point which a WL with such a setup can't handle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181884-caniswolflord-on-twm/#findComment-2152796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Runic armour doesn't give a full invulnerable save - just one against psychic powers. So power weapons will still chew through it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181884-caniswolflord-on-twm/#findComment-2152848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrathnar Flintfang Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 But that is why you take the belt. But depending on what you are fighting you won't always need it. I still personally think its a good thing to have, but the point is the bolt pistol is plenty useful with a Warrior born mounted WL, and an Invlunerable save of 4 rather than 3 won't matter as much since the Wolf lords Init is higher anyways. People just love the storm shield for some reason and they keep forgetting about the belt, which is cheaper and lets you have another hand free. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181884-caniswolflord-on-twm/#findComment-2152851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Oh the frost weapon would get rending as well wouldn't it? Nope. The TWM entry states you can't use the Rending with any Special Close Combat Weapons. Unlike either Fangir (who Canis is riding on), or the TWC themselves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181884-caniswolflord-on-twm/#findComment-2152894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Personally, I'd prefer the Wolf Lord on Mount. I don't think Canis' benefits out weigh the customisability (though those rending wolf claws are tempting). But the Frost Blade/Stormshield combo I think is better than rending wolf claws. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181884-caniswolflord-on-twm/#findComment-2152952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 I like the idea of running WL and Canis close to each other with cheap Fennie wolves. WL has Saga of Majesty and Canis uses Wolfkin/SR's to keep wolves in check. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181884-caniswolflord-on-twm/#findComment-2153118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamwulf Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Putting aside the absolute absurdness of a Space Marine riding a Giant Wolf into battle... :D Wolf Lord Frost Blade Storm Shield Thunderwolf Mount Wolftooth Necklace Yes, it's expensive. 210 points expensive. What do you get? WS 6, always hitting in close combat on a 3+ due to the Wolftooth necklace. Strength 6 power weapon attacks striking on initiative 5. Toughness 5. 3+ Invulnerable save. LD 10. Cavalry rules. Give him Saga of the Wolfkin and use some wolves with him. They are just as good in close combat as a Space Marine, but cost half as much. With the Saga of the Wolfkin, they'll be hitting at initiative 5. This will cost you 25 more points then Canis, and is a superior build in every way over Canis. He'll be 35 points over Canis if you give him the Saga. Too expensive? Go for the Wolf Guard Battle Leader. Not quite as capable, but will save you 30 points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181884-caniswolflord-on-twm/#findComment-2153195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 But that is why you take the belt. But depending on what you are fighting you won't always need it. I still personally think its a good thing to have, but the point is the bolt pistol is plenty useful with a Warrior born mounted WL, and an Invlunerable save of 4 rather than 3 won't matter as much since the Wolf lords Init is higher anyways. People just love the storm shield for some reason and they keep forgetting about the belt, which is cheaper and lets you have another hand free. Agreed - not that I have ever given one to a character Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181884-caniswolflord-on-twm/#findComment-2153345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Scotcho Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 I didn't even think about the Belt of Russ, I automatically went for the Storm Shield. I feel kind of stupid for ignoring, but I feel that Harald Deathwolf would be toting a Storm Shield around, that way if one of his Wolf Guard needed the Belt for a dangerous mission, he'd be able to loan it out. The bolt pistol/plasma pistol thing is a good point though, I might make a revision to my model now. Plus it'd make it look less like Canis, so that solves that problem. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181884-caniswolflord-on-twm/#findComment-2153426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 I'm torn about Renrisian Wolves units. You really must run them with an IC (on a TWM) attached. Thier leadership and lack of ATSKNF coupled with thier absymal saves makes them so uttrly fragile. The IC would give them Ld (better than spending 15 points somewhere on Saga of the Wolfkin) and ATSKNF. Add in Saga of Majesty if you really want as well. But then the Unit is T4, so you lose the benefit of the TWM's T5, until you reach CC. Maybe it's not that big a deal. :/ But still for a minimum of 175 points, I'd probably take 3 TWC over a WGBL and 5 Wolves. :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181884-caniswolflord-on-twm/#findComment-2153718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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