Furious charge and frost blades

[Wolf Lord Mjolnir]

Hi guys,

 

I was looking at Ragnar Blackmaine's stats last night and was wondering. He is armed with a frost blade and has furious charge does this mean that in the first round of combat, where he charged the enemy (not using coiunter strike) then Ragnar is str 6 and all the guys with frost blade in his unit too - as he give furious charge to the unit he leads aswell?

[Death Dealer 101]

Yes he is base 4 +1 for frost blade and +1 for furious charge. Giving rather many 6's on his profile on the charge WS, S, A(min), I He is rather nasty.

[muzzyman1981]

Wolf Lord Ragnar Blackmane is MEAN in close combat, as he should be.

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

Yes, but a wolf lord on a thunder wolf gets Str 6 all the time, so long as you give him a frost blade

[muzzyman1981]

Thunderwolf Mounts aren't the end all be all though, plus it takes alot of work to find a mount model for it.

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

Yes but the point is that for about five points more than Ragnar you get something comparable to Ragnar in most respects with a faster movement rating and some better stats. or for far less (45 points to be exact) you lose the wolf but get enough to pay for one of the TDA wolf guard you could have tooling around with your lord. I think that almost covers the cost of a WG in TDA with wolf claws anyways, which is nothing to sneeze at.

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

or you could field a squad of 10 wolf guard with dual frostblades at 530 points and get 40-60 strength 7 (4+1+1+1)power weapon attacks on the charge at initiative 5 ouchies!

very over priced though!

[Hawca]

or you could field a squad of 10 wolf guard with dual frostblades at 530 points and get 40-60 strength 7 (4+1+1+1)power weapon attacks on the charge at initiative 5 ouchies!

very over priced though!

 

This can be right? Frost blade gives +1 to strenght so 2 gives a bonus attack, I back this with the power fist doubles the base strenght so does 2 power fist double it twice? or and extra attack

[Morticon]

or you could field a squad of 10 wolf guard with dual frostblades at 530 points and get 40-60 strength 7 (4+1+1+1)power weapon attacks on the charge at initiative 5 ouchies!

very over priced though!

 

This can be right? Frost blade gives +1 to strenght so 2 gives a bonus attack, I back this with the power fist doubles the base strenght so does 2 power fist double it twice? or and extra attack

 

You may wanna check the existing (though possibly closed thread) on this discussion.

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

or you could field a squad of 10 wolf guard with dual frostblades at 530 points and get 40-60 strength 7 (4+1+1+1)power weapon attacks on the charge at initiative 5 ouchies!

very over priced though!

 

This can be right? Frost blade gives +1 to strenght so 2 gives a bonus attack, I back this with the power fist doubles the base strenght so does 2 power fist double it twice? or and extra attack

 

no power weapons follow the rulebook, however frostblades state that they are power weapons, and follow the power weapon rules.

on top of that they increase the user's strength by 1 there fore 2 increases the user's strength by 1 each or 2 for those that can't add.

 

a frostblade grants an extra attack when used with a pistol, therefor the benefit of buying the second gives an extra strength.

 

this is very costly though, if you work out how much points yo pay for the second +1 str increase, it's rarely worth it.

[JamesI]

There is already a thread (closed I think) to discuss the 2 frost blades stacking question.

 

As for 1 Frost Blade and Furious Charge, they definetly stack. Ragnar on the charge is strength 6, just like a furious charging power fist is strength 9.

[antique_nova]

i think there has been wording in the codex stating this can happen.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

If two Frost Blades stack for +2 strength (BBB - 'gain additional attack. All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use the special weapon's bonuses and penalties) are you saying that two Wolf Claws gives you an extra attack AND re-rolls for 'to hit' AND re-rolls for 'to wound'.

 

Codex SW - a Wolf Claw is a lightning claw that allows the wielder to either re-roll his To Hit roll or re-roll his To Wound rolls. So each Wolf Claw gives you the choice. It doesn't state you have to choose for the pair.

 

You pay a lot of points for 2 FB and for 2 WC.

 

The issue never came up with lightning claws because they can only re-roll wounds and BBB pg 2 states you can only re-roll a dice once.

 

If you interpret it as being able to grab 2 Frost Blade bonuses then as validly you can grab 2 Wolf Claw bonuses. Same, same.

[antique_nova]

so what are you saying specfiically? if i grab two frost blades and stick myself in rangars squad. then i get +2 S ( +1 for each frost blade ) and then another +1 S for rangar's fc.

so the guy gets S7 attacks. is that what your saying?

thanks

antique_nova

[DV8]

Wielding multiple Frost Blades does not grant you +2 Strength, in the same way that wielding two Power Fists or two Thunder Hammers does not grant you Strength 16 (assuming S4 base model).

 

When wielding two non-generic, "special" close combat weapons, you pick one to use. All your attacks gain the benefit of that one weapon and only that weapon. The other weapon is used to determine if you get the +1 Attack bonus for two close combat weapons. As an example:

 

Captain Fancy-pants is armed with a Frost Blade, a Bolt Pistol, a Power Fist, and an Iron Halo (nevermind the possibility of such a wargear selection, assume he's special). Strength 4, Attacks 4.

 

Fancy-pants charges into combat against some Guardians and decides he wants to use his Frost Blade since Guardians are meh and he wants to go first. So as per Frost Blade rules, he gets +1 Strength, so he now has Strength 5 attacks. But he wants bonus attacks, so he looks at his Power Fist, and his Bolt Pistol. Well as per the rules a Power Fist only grants/gains +1 Attack bonus if armed with two of them, so Fancy-pants whips out his Bolt Pistol (PG13 I swears!) and with the charge, gets 6 attacks (4 base, +1 charge, +1 two ccw).

 

So Fancy-pants wins combat, and moves on to charge a Wraithlord. Well his Strength 5 isn't going to do much, but he has a Power Fist and an Iron Halo! If he can weather the monstrosity's attacks, he can strike back with a singular fist of fury! So Fancy-pants decides to make the Power Fist his primary weapon, giving him Strength 8 attacks, but now Initiative 1. The Wraithlord, annoyed by the vertically challenged human, swipes at his knees but only succeeds in parting Fancy-pants glorious hair, ruining his do and driving him into a berserk rage. Fancy-pants looks at his other two weapons, the Frost Blade and the Bolt Pistol. Well unfortunately as per the rules, neither of them count as an additional close combat weapon when combined with a Power Fist, SO he's stuck with 5 attacks (4 base, +1 charge).

 

 

DV8

[dublindawg]

I vote that DV8 does a mock up of this Wolf Lord Fancy Pants and posts some pics. He sounds pretty cool.

 

But going back to the topic, the description that DV8 describes sums it up pretty well, only one weapon is used to attack with and the other is there in a supporting roll to only provide a +1 in CC.

[Hfran Morkai]

Nice post DV8. I've also brought up strength 16 thunder hammers, it would be nice though to auto penetrate land raiders/monoliths.

 

I also like Captain Fancy Pants and his being "special"

[antique_nova]

k

[DV8]

I vote that DV8 does a mock up of this Wolf Lord Fancy Pants and posts some pics. He sounds pretty cool.

 

But going back to the topic, the description that DV8 describes sums it up pretty well, only one weapon is used to attack with and the other is there in a supporting roll to only provide a +1 in CC.

 

Challenge accepted. Whenst I return to my lair from this abyssmal place they call a "studio" I shall breathe life to Captain Fancy-pants!

 

 

DV8

[White Hunter]

that's right antique_nova, so long as the rules allow it you could have a unit that stirkes at I5, S7 on the charge.

(This is an opinion from reading the rules and is undecided. Both sides have legitimate reasons and explanations why they are right, so be tolerant and wait for an FAQ, or tournament ruling.)

 

to the OP: I love Ragnar and a unit of WG with frost blades. that many S6 attacks above I4 mean that you really can destroy most units you hit. here is my quick attempt at math hammer.

 

Ragnar + 5 PA FB+BP (on a 3 attack charge) vs codex 10 dual lightning claw terminators

 

A Hit W Unsaved Wounds

Ragnar 8 4 3.33 2.222222222

5 WG 30 15 12.5 8.333333333

 

Total 38 19 15.83 10.55555556

 

So math hammer wise you will destroy in 1 assault a unit of 10 lightning claw terminators without losing a WG or wound off ragnar, now surviving the shooting phase...

[Toasterfree]

or you could field a squad of 10 wolf guard with dual frostblades at 530 points and get 40-60 strength 7 (4+1+1+1)power weapon attacks on the charge at initiative 5 ouchies!

very over priced though!

frost blades do not stack.

 

@DV8

 

Dude that post was awesome, im going to rename my wolf lord to Fancypants in your honor

[Morticon]

The argument was not that you were using two - it was that you didnt need to use them both to claim the +1, and that simply having the blade (by the wording) gave you the bonus.

 

However, if that was the case two PFs would give you S10.

[Toasterfree]

The argument was not that you were using two - it was that you didnt need to use them both to claim the +1, and that simply having the blade (by the wording) gave you the bonus.

 

However, if that was the case two PFs would give you S10.

the issue is in part the grammar of the entry, which says user's which means that you have to use it to get the +1. there for they will not stack since you can only use one special CCW per turn. see DV8s post above.

[DV8]

The argument was not that you were using two - it was that you didnt need to use them both to claim the +1, and that simply having the blade (by the wording) gave you the bonus.

 

However, if that was the case two PFs would give you S10.

 

You're right, at face value one could interpret that having 2 Frost Blades, even if you're only using 1, would give +2 Strength (1 each) because of it's vagueness.

 

But by that same token then, the Wolf Claw is equally vaguely worded and you could also argue that having 2 Wolf Claws would allow you to reroll both To Hit and To Wound. In addition, because of the way the Wolf Claw rules are worded, you can combo it with another weapon (say Thunderhammer or Frost Blade), and apply the reroll of either To Hit or To Wound to that other weapon.

 

Which is why I'm fairly certain that GW's intention is that the weapon bonuses do not stack. You pick the bonus for one, and then figure out if the other qualifies as a second close combat weapon for the +1 Attack bonus.

 

 

DV8

[Haroof]

I don't have the BRB to hand, but for powerfist's doesn't it say that it double's the user's base strength? Because if that was the case, then even if you do take 2 power fists and (if confirmed by FAQ) that 2 frost blades gives you +2 strength, 2 power fists would only give you strength of 8, since an MEQ's base strength is 4. Hence why a furious charging MEQ with a powerfist get's a strength of 9 instead of 10, since the +1 strength due to furious charing doesn't count as part of the MEQ's base Strength.

 

If the BRB doesn't use the phrase "base strength", my whole argument is moot and can be safely ignored :D