Belt of russ VS Storm Shield

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

It seems many people on here prefer the storm shield to the belt of russ when it comes to wargear. Personally I don't get the appeal, so I thought I would ask here to see if people have a reason for passing up the belt. The way I see it the belt does provide slightly worse armor than a storm shield (which can be a very bad thing) but it also costs 5 points less, and allows you the ability to take a second CC weapon such as a pistol. That means if you buy a belt of russ instead of a storm shield you get one attack in the shooting phase before charging, and then one more attack in the assault phase when going after your prey.

 

Now I understand if you are taking something like a Thunder Hammer which is expensive to double up on, a storm shield is the way to go. By itself the hammer will probably do all the work you need and you can't get any extra melee attacks, not to mention youll be hitting last in combat, which can be a problem. Its another story for those with a frost weapon or other war gear though since you want that extra attack, and with a wolf lord its even more desirable since you have an I5, meaning most foes you will clean up at least partially before they can hit back.

 

The storm sheild itself isn't a bad bit of wargear, it just doesn't seem to make sense taking it unless you are using a power fist or thunder hammer, since the drop in init leaves you more prone to a foes normal ignore armor attacks.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I like the idea of the BoR with terminator armor and a WL with combi melta, or plasma and single WC and SoB in a pod.

 

When you land you can have a nice shooting attack, BoR gives you a better save than +5, and SoB won't let that single fist that makes it through kill the whole model.

[confused_gordy]

people love power armour, and having power armour that not even a power weapon can bust through, will always strike a chord with people.

 

I think the reason is mostly psychological, in that people spend tonnes on their characters, and if playing SW probably like them the most. And therefore want to make them as survivable as possible. Plus a futuristic warrior lord, running around with a big weapon and shield is just awesome.

 

In a game play perspective, I think it is viable to save the points and get a shot in, but people sometimes avoid shooting (in order to ensure they reach assault), and If you cant kill every person in that tac squad, then a power fist wound is probably going to come the way of your nice expensive character, at which point having a Storm shield makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside.

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

people love power armour, and having power armour that not even a power weapon can bust through, will always strike a chord with people.

 

I think the reason is mostly psychological, in that people spend tonnes on their characters, and if playing SW probably like them the most. And therefore want to make them as survivable as possible. Plus a futuristic warrior lord, running around with a big weapon and shield is just awesome.

 

In a game play perspective, I think it is viable to save the points and get a shot in, but people sometimes avoid shooting (in order to ensure they reach assault), and If you cant kill every person in that tac squad, then a power fist wound is probably going to come the way of your nice expensive character, at which point having a Storm shield makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside.

 

True, but in 5th (unless ive been doing it wrong, which was with my old wolves anyways and with someone else who had not tried 5th) you can choose to allocate wounds to other members of the unit. So really wouldn't it be better to stick your lord with some wolf guard and let one of them red shirt as opposed to just hoping that extra 16% chance is going to keep you from getting falcon punched into next week?

[lunchb0x]

you dont understand why a 3+ invuln is better then a 4+ invuln?

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

Not when you can have an extra attack for five points less and simply shunt off the wounds to someone else when dealing with power fists or other things that could eat a lord outright, no. I mean I get it that its a survivability thing, but five points more, technically two fewer attacks, though we both know the shooting attack probably won't do much, and only a 16% better chance at avoiding a power weapon. I say save it for the people who like thunder hammers and power fists on their WL/WGBL because honestly it seems like a waste of initiative otherwise, and tacking them on wolf guard in large numbers could get expensive fast.

[JamesI]

Not when you can have an extra attack for five points less and simply shunt off the wounds to someone else when dealing with power fists or other things that could eat a lord outright, no. I mean I get it that its a survivability thing, but five points more, technically two fewer attacks, though we both know the shooting attack probably won't do much, and only a 16% better chance at avoiding a power weapon. I say save it for the people who like thunder hammers and power fists on their WL/WGBL because honestly it seems like a waste of initiative otherwise, and tacking them on wolf guard in large numbers could get expensive fast.

Remember, Lords are ICs. Hits against them in close combat can't be passed off to someone else. If that powerfist swings at the lord, the lord takes the fist.

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

Well still, if he is taking the fist he is taking the fist.Your odds only go up by 1 in 6. If you are really that worried about him stick him on a wolf and then his toughness goes up, along with strength and number of attacks. Fifteen points more for a huge bonus and a guarantee that power fists won't insta-kill. And then if you want you can tack a belt or shield on anyways, though at that point I would really just emphasize the pistol.

[Thorgad]

Too slow on the reply, post deleted.

[stinkenheim]

your IC is treated as a seperate unit in combat. so people either attack his squad or if they are in base contact they can attack him. if they attack him he can't make his squad take the wounds, and if the squad is attacked then he is not considered part of them.

i give my lord a storm shield/thunder hammer partly because i love the way it looks, but also because i play orks and nids alot and that means they have a high number of power weapons (or the equivilant) so the improved inv save is more than helpfull.

if i was going against enemies where the amount of power weapons was lower, or at least less concentrated (e.g. eldar where the majority are in banshee squads) or if the models carrying them were lower strength (guard) i would probably trust my higher T to help and take the belt of russ.

i think it depends on your opponent. although if writing a list for a tournament i would play safe and take the shield.

[Lord Ragnarok]

As stinkenheim points out it is situational. I don't know if there is a right or wrong in all cases. I know my example is vaild under those circumstances. My DP experience has shown me you have to maximize that shooting since your pack will be jumping out the pod, and sitting on rocks while they drink ale and decide who the smash first.

 

That said, I understand stinkenheim's example as well. Situational.

[Bonham1963]

BoR is pretty limiting, as only one special character and the WL can take that type of wargear. TH/SS can be taken by many different units and grants a better save. For fluff reasons, I don't think there should be that many BoR in any army. In fact, it should have been only, one per army, IMHO.

[Chucku]

BoR is pretty limiting, as only one special character and the WL can take that type of wargear. TH/SS can be taken by many different units and grants a better save. For fluff reasons, I don't think there should be that many BoR in any army. In fact, it should have been only, one per army, IMHO.

 

I agree with the above. The BoR is not very accessible, while you can give nearly anyone a Storm Shield. If I'm taking a Storm Shield it is much more often than not mixed with a weapon that cannot benefit from a second standard CC weapon. So for Thunder Hammers or Power Fists it's a great combo. It's also not a bad choice for high-priced leaders who lack Saga of the Bear as it's better insurance against Instant Death hits.

[Vlk]

Well, I'll probably field the Wolf Lord mainly with a Thunderwolf mount which should raise his base T (at least that's how I read it and I hope I remember it right). There are not many S10 weapons around so I prefer to give him a BoR and a Frost Axe... that gives me 7 attacks on charge (S6, I5, WS6, ignoring armour) which is something I just can't give up.

[thade]

Well still, if he is taking the fist he is taking the fist.Your odds only go up by 1 in 6.

 

"Only 1 in 6"?! I'll take those odds in a heartbeat!

 

4++ = 50% chance of save.

3++ = 66% chance of save...which is significantly better than 50%.

 

I love me my storm shields. <3

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

Yes, 16% as I had stated in an earlier post, or a 1 in 6 increase as in "From 3 out of 6 to 4 out of 6". that is a 1 in 6 increase.

 

however I again have to state that for that increase you are giving up on two attacks, one of which could be wtih a S5 or S6 power weapon on I5. It can eat people.

[Coverfire]

Yes, 16% as I had stated in an earlier post, or a 1 in 6 increase as in "From 3 out of 6 to 4 out of 6". that is a 1 in 6 increase.

 

however I again have to state that for that increase you are giving up on two attacks, one of which could be wtih a S5 or S6 power weapon on I5. It can eat people.

 

Why 2 attacks? Might just be having a blonde moment but aren't you only losing 1 attack for extra weapon?

 

Belt of Russ - 5 points less than Storm Shield (I think) and not losing 1 attack for extra weapon but 4+ save

 

Storm Shield - 3+ Save, loss of 1 attack (for extra weapon)

 

Question really comes down to if you would spend 5 points +1A for an extra +1 to saving throw...

 

Then once you have analyse the question and come up with your answer then throw it out and ask yourself which one is way cooler and much easier to model!

[maznaz]

Yes, 16% as I had stated in an earlier post, or a 1 in 6 increase as in "From 3 out of 6 to 4 out of 6". that is a 1 in 6 increase.

 

however I again have to state that for that increase you are giving up on two attacks, one of which could be wtih a S5 or S6 power weapon on I5. It can eat people.

 

It's not a 16% increase, that's not how statistics work.

 

Your odds of succesfully saving the attack increase by 33%. This doesn't seem intuitive unless you understand that to go from 6+ inv to 5+ actually doubles your chance of survival; ie an increase of 100%.

 

As you can see, that extra 1 on the saving throw matters more than it might seem to depending on how you express it.

 

Put it this way: If you swap the belt for a shield you will pass 33% more saving rolls.

 

Marek

[Gentlemanloser]

And you can't get the extra attack in TDA anyway.

 

Sure, if you're running a TWM IC, then use a BoR and load up with a Pistol plus FB. Or two WC.

 

If you plan on using a PF or TH, get the SS, as you can't get the extra attack anyway (unless you really want to buy a second PF/TH...)

[Death Dealer 101]

The main weakness of independent characters is the fact that they can take a powerfist to the face and be instant killed. Without having eternal warrior the best protection against this happening is a storm shield giving a 3++, sometimes model positioning and what nots just don't work and having 66% chance of surving is better that a 50%. But on a counter note an extra attack might have killed th fist wielder. SO it really comes down to personnel choice.

 

When fighitng normal infrantry the extra attack is more beneficial

But after doing many maths calcs when fighting enemy characters the storm shield giving the 3++ always is the better option. No matter how many attacks the enemy have 4/6 wounds will be neglected. So character on character battles really comes down to a battle of attrition.

That extra attack is not better then the +1 to your save. When fighting a similar equiped enemy witht only the 4+ and an extra attack. This is because that extra attack needs to hit, wound, have the enemy fail their invulnerbale so in the end it does little. But have a better invuln means that those attacks that do get through are neglected a lot of the time.

[Grey Mage]

Not when you can have an extra attack for five points less and simply shunt off the wounds to someone else when dealing with power fists or other things that could eat a lord outright, no. I mean I get it that its a survivability thing, but five points more, technically two fewer attacks, though we both know the shooting attack probably won't do much, and only a 16% better chance at avoiding a power weapon. I say save it for the people who like thunder hammers and power fists on their WL/WGBL because honestly it seems like a waste of initiative otherwise, and tacking them on wolf guard in large numbers could get expensive fast.

Its not nessecairily five points less or an extra attack.

 

Plasmapistol is 15pts- and sure, youve got a hell of a shot but now its 10 pts more and -1 to your invlunerable... but +1 attack.

 

Combiweapons on the other hand, since we lost true grit, dont even give an extra attack... and they make up that 5pts.

 

*shrugs*.

 

I think Wolf Gaurd, who are remaining with a unit, should have a 2/3 ratio of shields /no shields and atleast one per squad. Why? Well one Shieldmen are just part of the style in my opinion and also because its quite the badass who blocks the rocket that could take out a rhino in one hit with his shield.

 

It always confused me that a SS was a save in CC only, simply because shields capable of blocking a powerfist can block... well, missile launchers and lascannons. So why not? Thats what most Axeman used shields for- stopping arrows.

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

Well yes but you still get the +1 in melee either way, you don't have to spend those points to get it, they just come with the bolt pistol.

 

Personally I don't plan on sticking an SS on anyone. Maybe my RP who is already on a bike but that is it. Same with Combis, though Don't really like those anyways. the one use thing just really turns me off to those.

 

Personally I don't plan on using shields in any list, but that is me. I just throw them in an LRC and let them run loose.

[Grey Mage]

Well yes but you still get the +1 in melee either way, you don't have to spend those points to get it, they just come with the bolt pistol.

 

Personally I don't plan on sticking an SS on anyone. Maybe my RP who is already on a bike but that is it. Same with Combis, though Don't really like those anyways. the one use thing just really turns me off to those.

 

Personally I don't plan on using shields in any list, but that is me. I just throw them in an LRC and let them run loose.

Sadly, Rune Priests cant take a SS unless in TDA.

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

Well yes but you still get the +1 in melee either way, you don't have to spend those points to get it, they just come with the bolt pistol.

 

Personally I don't plan on sticking an SS on anyone. Maybe my RP who is already on a bike but that is it. Same with Combis, though Don't really like those anyways. the one use thing just really turns me off to those.

 

Personally I don't plan on using shields in any list, but that is me. I just throw them in an LRC and let them run loose.

Sadly, Rune Priests cant take a SS unless in TDA.

 

They really didn't want the RP to have much close combat ability did they? I am getting a feeling I need to go over the troop section again some time and look at their wargear entry.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Storm shield isn't an option for him at all.