Thunderwolf Cavalry vs an extra GH squad

[Newobmij]

So a group of 3 Thunderwolf Cavalry cost the same as a 10 man squad of Grey Hunters. Considering the assault power of both, assuming the basic setup of pistol/cc weapon:

 

The Thunderwolves get 3 ranged attacks in the shooting phase (might get a wound) and 18 attacks on the charge

 

The Hunters get 10 attacks at range (might get 4 wounds) and 30 on the charge.

 

Now, the Thunderwolves get Rending, so assuming you're fighting marine vs. marine in power armor, the Thunderwolves will on average get 1 outright kill and five enemy wounds (average of 1 or 2 failed saves).

 

The Grey hunters will get 10 enemy wounds on average, with 3 or 4 failed armor saves.

 

On Defense, the Thunderwolves have 6 available wounds, while the Hunters have 10.

 

The extra toughness of the cavalry,combined with 2 wounds per figure means they won't outright die to most power weapons. Assuming you are in base contact with 10 enemy marines (2 cc weapons) attacking you (already in base, not charging) Thunderwolves will take 4 or 5 wounds and 2 or 3 will pass, meaning on average 1 cavalry unit will die (1/3 of the squad).

 

The hunters with the same attack coming at them take 6 or 7 wounds with 3 or 4 dying (roughly 1/3) Plus any Power weapon wounds drop the save rate lower.

 

The second turn of combat the Wolves have 5 base attacks each (1 extra attack from the 2 cc weapons) vs. the 2 attacks per unit from the Hunters. The difference here being that the hunters have more units left thus getting more attacks.

 

Now the difference in movement is huge, as is the ability to hold control points and objectives. Going from my calculations, for their points, the Thunderwolves really aren't as great as I first thought in assaulting things. A great clean-up unit to bring out of reserves, but they should not be the first thing to assault a fresh enemy squad

[confused_gordy]

Excellent, well thought out, but what happens if the thunder wolves have some upgrades, and the GH have some upgrades?

 

Storm shields will probably make some difference, as will complex unit rules. where as a special weapon effects thunder wolves for 4 attacks, not just 1 for GH.

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

Honestly it really depends on how much punch your army has already, and what you have in your army.

 

Thunder Wolves provide great anti-troop punch and some ok chance to hurt vehicles if you get them in close, coupled with a nasty movement range. They can't shoot, but they aren't supposed to, and if you don't upgrade them they get rending which can be a very nice thing indeed.

 

GH, well if you are lacking on scoring choices this is the way to go. However keep in mind that on their own a 10 man squad probably won't do as much damage against hardier foes, at least not without additional investment. First of all if you are going to take Gh you want to take the free flamer/plasma combo if you can, or shell out ten points for duel plasma if you can spare them. Then you have the transport, if you are going to take it, and if not you may want ot consider a WG who can cost even more when kitted out. I say this because honestly, while GH are a flexable and powerful unit, those Thunder Wolves are probably going to earn their points back and then some rather quickly if only due to pure hitting power and movement speed.

 

Then again scoring units can score, so if you really need another one I suppose GH would work.

[Newobmij]

I really only see power swords and frost blades being a viable upgrade, since (at least in a pack of three) you can never tell which unit will fail the saves. Its horrible when your initiative 1 power fist is killed before it gets to make an attack. Low initiative is bad on small squads like these that must allocate wounds to everybody, including people who haven't attacked yet. Give the Hunters the same equipment and the kill ratio will still balance out to be even, but the small number of units in the cavalry squad still gives the Hunters an edge on the second turn of combat.

 

Add two more Thunderwolves, and you're above the effectiveness of a Grey Hunter squad in Assault, but at the cost of a Land Raider.

 

Still, the Hunters don't have the potential to charge an enemy up to 24" away.

[Valerian]

I really only see power swords and frost blades being a viable upgrade, since (at least in a pack of three) you can never tell which unit will fail the saves. Its horrible when your initiative 1 power fist is killed before it gets to make an attack. Low initiative is bad on small squads like these that must allocate wounds to everybody, including people who haven't attacked yet. Give the Hunters the same equipment and the kill ratio will still balance out to be even, but the small number of units in the cavalry squad still gives the Hunters an edge on the second turn of combat.

 

Add two more Thunderwolves, and you're above the effectiveness of a Grey Hunter squad in Assault, but at the cost of a Land Raider.

 

Still, the Hunters don't have the potential to charge an enemy up to 24" away.

 

There is the key difference. The capability that sets the TWC apart is not necessarily their offensive capability or their survivability as opposed to Hunters, but rather their impressive Tactical Mobility. Simply put, TWC are great at applying their combat power right where you want it, wheras Hunters have a much harder time with that. Even transports such as Rhinos and Drop Pods don't make up the difference entirely.

 

Valerian

[Newobmij]

Wow. I just realised that a squad of 5 Thunderwolf Cavalry all armed with power swords can ELIMINATE a 10 man marine squad in one assault while taking on average 2 wounds (one model lost). I mean, you're paying 325 points for the squad at that point, but sweet Jesus is that awesome. Swap out one power sword for a Frost Blade (s5+1=s6)and you're slicing open Rhinos (4s glance & 5s penetrate). I'd still hesitate on using a power fist unless you know that unit will be targeting a powerfull IC.

 

A squad of Grey Hunters can't do that. 10 Wolf Guard all with Power weapons maybe could at 280 points, but you'd need to give them a Land Raider on top of it to help them get there.

 

I think I know what I'l be using to fight Plague marines with now (besides 5 Lascannon Long Fang squads).

[Newobmij]

I now realise when a power fist would be usefull. Put one on a single model. Have him run around punching tanks to death. With 5 fist attacks on the assault and a strenght 10 "PUNCH OF DOOM" everything short of a Land Raider or Monolith will fall with ease. Hell, for those you can still penetrate on a 5.

 

I can now imagine a 'Cron player laughing at me for fielding a guy on a dog. Then watch him writhe in agony as his monolith gets punched apart in one attack from Doomfist McWolfrider.

[Frosty the Pyro]

I now realise when a power fist would be usefull. Put one on a single model. Have him run around punching tanks to death. With 5 fist attacks on the assault and a strenght 10 "PUNCH OF DOOM" everything short of a Land Raider or Monolith will fall with ease. Hell, for those you can still penetrate on a 5.

 

I can now imagine a 'Cron player laughing at me for fielding a guy on a dog. Then watch him writhe in agony as his monolith gets punched apart in one attack from Doomfist McWolfrider.

yep, iron preist on a TWM can do this too, but with a thunder hamer, and one less attack (but an extra str8 from the servo arm). better armor but single wound, but extra wounds are cheap in the form of cyberwolfs.

 

but anyway, thunderwolf with a fist and a frost axe calvery can annihilate equal poitsts of nob bikers and do well vs MC and vehicles.

[Gentlemanloser]

You can only give one TWC in the Squad a Special Weapon. :P

 

But they would have a Rending PF/TH for popping Raiders/Mono's.

[merlonc]

I believe you lose rending if you take a special CC weapon

[Valerian]

I believe you lose rending if you take a special CC weapon

 

For Thunderwolf Mounts definitely, not for Thunderwolf Cavalry, however.

 

V

[Godhead]

The problem with your analysis IMO is that I feel you are comparing apples and oranges. Yes a GH squad can do a similar job as TWC, but GH's are scoring and are meant to take and hold objectives. TWC is meant to go kill the enemy. The TWC has mobility that the GH's don't.

 

Also I don't think you can directly compare two different units in a vacuum. As I had said before, these two units have different jobs. I think a TWC should be supported. I would never send a squad out alone if I can help it. Personally, I would screen them either with a swiftclaw pack, skyclaw pack, or a fen wolf pack. (of course GH should be supported too IMO).

 

I have also noticed some people comparing TWC with a TH vs the IP on a TWM. The thing about the IP is that he is a 1 wound 2 attack TH model at str 10 vs a TWC who is a 2 wound 4 attack TH model at str 10, with the option to upgrade to a storm shield. If you count the servo claw attack for the IP it still weighs in at str 8 no matter what, because the TWM doesn't change the stats of the servo arm. So for the purposes of comparison for Armor pen, the TWC has 4 str 10 attacks, which amounts to 2 more str 10 attacks, and one extra attack overall vs the IP.

 

IMO the IP gets the nod when accompanied with Cyberwolves for a cheap fast calvery unit. But this unit lacks from having a lesser save and no invuln save.

 

IMO TWC's assets lies in their ability to win tough combats with enemy units (say vs enemy dreads/walkers/Ic's etc). They are less likely to get stuck in and are able to continue eating up the enemy army. Even a basic unupgraded model has str 5 and rending. meaning it can pen anything minus a LR or a monolith (so Dreads beware). Str 5 and rending also gives them an excellent threat range for IC's and MC's. This plus the ability to sport Storm shields should make for a pretty durable unit. I think their weakness lies in a volume of fire with decent guns. Multiple HB/assault cannon fire would be my preference for killing these guys. As with terminators and seer councils squads, if you keep making them roll saves, they will end up dying. Of course if you are shooting lots of guns at these guys, then something else is most likely left unmolested. Some people say they would just pie plate these guys with a Vindi shot. The thing is, you get one shot before it potentially suffers the retalitory charge from these guys. With a rear armor rating of 10 a vindi is in severe danger to a charge from these guys even without meltabombs. Plus if a vindi is wasting its time firing at the TWC then it isnt shooting at my troops marching over to camp and drink on his objectives.

[CREATOR_OF_ALL_SINS]

If it were me, i would take the 3 Thunderwolf cavalry.

 

They can back up your infantry or just leave them behind a building and wait, and wait, and wait for the last turn and then run out to the objective which your enemy thought was safe! ITS A MEAN TACTIC!!!

[fjgarces]

I'm going to a tournament with a list with 3 TWC and a WL in TW and I'll play them with a 10 FW meat shield (no, they really can do it well if they don't die early and arrive to the enemy, efther the wolves, or maybe in time, the TWC will arrive and smash the survivors).

 

And I have a 4 Swiftclaw bikers pack with a WG on bike to support them. I'm just testing my tournament list.

 

Tomorrow I'm going to test this with my son.

 

I take 4 GH packs making the core of my army, I don't need to choose between GH or TWC... both are better ;-)