Wound allocation among DC

[SnorriSnorrison]

Today, my DC was attacked(I also used Lemartes instead of the normal chappy) by 5 Tyranid warriors with rending, 24 Hormagaunts, luckily leaving the genestealers out of range(was a retinue for the broodlord, so they couldn`t fleet).

When all the attacks came in, 4 rends and 22 "normals", one model was killed by the rends, and I made my 22 armour saves.

Only 2 fails! BAM! Then FNP saved those also....should have seen my opponent`s face ;)

 

 

Snorri

[JamesI]

Why was only one model killed by the rends? Lucky invul saves by Lemartes?

[SnorriSnorrison]

Nope, I was able to give all the rends to one model(I assume the unit size was about 7 with lemmy, was a lot of shooting before), so it would die immediately.

The rest just sucked the wounds like a sponge would do...

 

 

Snorri

 

edit:

just fixed a little mistake there, not I died, the model did. ;)

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Nope, I was able to give all the rends to one model(I assume the unit size was about 7 with lemmy, was a lot of shooting before), so I would die immediately.

The rest just sucked the wounds like a sponge would do...

 

 

Snorri

I didn't even consider the idea of wrapping all the rends to one model. Well done.

 

 

The only way he could do that was if the squad had unique models which cant be done with Death Company. Someone made a silly mistake ;)

[SnorriSnorrison]

No, there were several GW employees and some rulebooks flying around, everythings fine.

 

Lemmy was attacked by 2 hormagaunts, they caused two armour saves which were passed.

 

And as far as I know, I am able to allocate the wounds as I want as long every model has got the mandatory wounds.

I don`t understand your problem, he attacked, wounded and I made my saves. What`s wrong? Would you mind to explain? ;)

 

 

Snorri

[BOBMAKENZIE]

No, there were several GW employees and some rulebooks flying around, everythings fine.

 

Lemmy was attacked by 2 hormagaunts, they caused two armour saves which were passed.

 

And as far as I know, I am able to allocate the wounds as I want as long every model has got the mandatory wounds.

I don`t understand your problem, he attacked, wounded and I made my saves. What`s wrong? Would you mind to explain? ;)

 

 

Snorri

 

You say you assigned all 4 Rends to one model and then just removed it correct?

So basically You had 7 Death Company, took 24 Wounds and 4 Rends.

 

You went "Mr. Death Company # 6 Is going to take all 4 Rends and then the remainder will take all the armour saves.." That is correct isnt it? So in effect you lost 1 Death Company to 4 Rends?

 

my issue is that yes you can wound allocate like that but models that are identical remove models as one group. So you would have lost 4 Death Company no matter how the Rends were allocated because a Death Company Squad has to be identical. Then you would have rolled all your saves and removed more as necessary.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Ah, I see your point.

 

A very strange situation after all, three guys sayin` "yes, those 4 rends on that guy!".

Checked it with the RB right now, you`re right...but it didn`t matter very much, after that a big carnifex went through the wall and put out 9 attacks and killed Lemmy and the 5 remaining DC.

 

Mh...strange. My bad.

 

 

Snorri

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Ah, I see your point.

 

A very strange situation after all, three guys sayin` "yes, those 4 rends on that guy!".

Checked it with the RB right now, you`re right...but it didn`t matter very much, after that a big carnifex went through the wall and put out 9 attacks and killed Lemmy and the 5 remaining DC.

 

Mh...strange. My bad.

 

 

Snorri

 

its a common mistake but it bugs me alittle bit so I thought I would try and halt it before it spread any further. :wallbash:

[Demoulius]

as far as i can understand it went like thus:

 

22 normal wounds and 2 rending attacks. 7 DC. one dc model soaked up the rending attacks whilst the dc made their saves and FNP saves. the chappy got attacked as well but made his save.

 

did i got that right?

[igotsmeakabob!!]

The problem is that Death Co. are all the same, they don't have uniquely equipped models amongst them. You group save allocations by the model's equipment if they're the same type of model..

OK, here we go.

 

Termie 1 is armed with power sword, termie 2 is armed with cylcone ml, termies three and four are armed with chainfists and termies five and six are straight tac termies.

You take 10 normals and 2 rends.

 

Termie 1 gets a normal

T2 gets a normal

T3&4 are assigned two normals

T5&6 are assigned a normal and a rend

Repeat another round with the same allocation.

 

T1: 2 saves

T2: 2 saves

T3&4: 4 saves, rolled together because they have the same equipment. If two of the four dice are failures, they both die.

T5&6: 2 saves 2 invuln saves, rolled together because they have the same equipment.

 

 

You couldn't have assigned rends to individual Death Co. because they're all equipped the same. When you rolled all your saves and accounted for the rendings, 4 Death Co. would automatically die because they were rended (counts as ap2).

 

edit: Whoops, looks like my long, drawn out example was too late.

[SnorriSnorrison]

its a common mistake but it bugs me alittle bit so I thought I would try and halt it before it spread any further. :P

 

 

Thanks a lot...damn, it was so perfect! :wallbash:

 

 

Snorri

[Baba Lem]

That rule is the reason why every nob in a biker squad carries unique wargear.

[JamesI]

That rule is the reason why every nob in a biker squad carries unique wargear.

We could do the same with an HG or VAS (through additions of Shields/meltabombs)

[Baba Lem]

Indeed. But alas, with HGs and VAS' it's not as effective. Nobs are just...Nobs.

 

In simple, though.

 

If ya got a Tactical with a Bolter and a Sergeant with a Powerweapon, suffering three wounds at the same Initiative. Two of which negate armour saves.

 

Following sane allocation, you would junk the rending on the lone ranger with the bolter and let the sarge take the armour save. Now, that's only possibly because you allocate. You only allocate in case of different models or depening on their wargear.

 

In the case of Deathcompany...that's not possible, since you do all the saves for the same models at the same time.

 

A shame, really. Also, it makes rending as a whole lot a tad less good.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

The whole wound allocation rules set is basically just one question. I dont get why people seem to have so much trouble with it...maybe a Flow Chart like this would help?

 

 

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y196/Bobmakenzie/SaveFlowChart.jpg

 

Nob Bikers arent good because of the whole two wound things, they are good because they have Feel No Pain to go with an automatic 4+ Cover/Armour. In the new marine book you can do a very good command Squad in the same style.

 

Command Squad, Bikes, 4 Storm Shields, Lightning Claw, Pfist, Thammer, Flamer 335pts

 

4+/4+ (Works out to about 1/4 of your saves will Fail)

Is not nearly As good as a

3+/4+ (Works out to about 1/6 of your saves will Fail)

 

(Especially when that 3+ is an Invulnerable Save and the 4+ is an armour/cover)

 

 

for Blood angels...running A trio of Sanguinary Priests may work well with 5 Unique models...Allowing you to better pick which weapons/Specialists survive..

 

Something like 2 Honour Guards light on trimmings with Priests and not much else (maybe Just 2 Plasma guns each in a rhino?) + Corbulo..Running along side.

10 Vets, 3 Different PWep (or Pfist/Thammers/LCs etc) Loadouts, 1 Storm Shield Vet, 1Storm Shield Vet with Melta bombs, 1 Storm Sheild vet with Meltagun, 1 Storm Shield Vet with Flamer 425pts

 

Keeping the Priests near by to save Key Members as they fall and so on. Relying too much on avoiding combat with 3 Key models...Its not a very Viable tactic for us but with the new Thunder Wolf Cav and Space Marine Command Squads both can do very similar units that work well.

[Demoulius]

igotsmeakabob!! Yesterday, 09:53

The problem is that Death Co. are all the same, they don't have uniquely equipped models amongst them. You group save allocations by the model's equipment if they're the same type of model..

OK, here we go.

 

Termie 1 is armed with power sword, termie 2 is armed with cylcone ml, termies three and four are armed with chainfists and termies five and six are straight tac termies.

You take 10 normals and 2 rends.

 

Termie 1 gets a normal

T2 gets a normal

T3&4 are assigned two normals

T5&6 are assigned a normal and a rend

Repeat another round with the same allocation.

 

T1: 2 saves

T2: 2 saves

T3&4: 4 saves, rolled together because they have the same equipment. If two of the four dice are failures, they both die.

T5&6: 2 saves 2 invuln saves, rolled together because they have the same equipment.

 

 

You couldn't have assigned rends to individual Death Co. because they're all equipped the same. When you rolled all your saves and accounted for the rendings, 4 Death Co. would automatically die because they were rended (counts as ap2).

 

edit: Whoops, looks like my long, drawn out example was too late.

 

i believe that there is a small misconception here brothers. he did do that, allocate his wounds. its just that he allocated the most harmfull ones to the same model. we can all agree that every model in the units need to have one wound before you can allocate more yes? he simply alloced all normal attacks to 1 model, whilst giving the rending attacks to one. its perfectly legal, heck even the BBB uses it as an example on how to minimize losses! (see page 25, right lower corner, its in the small outline)

 

fact that all DC marines are identical doesent matter in this case. ass all the armor saves that had to be rolled, were rolled. its just that one death company marine was unfortunate enough to catch 2 rending attacks to the face :)

[JamesI]

i believe that there is a small misconception here brothers. he did do that, allocate his wounds. its just that he allocated the most harmfull ones to the same model. we can all agree that every model in the units need to have one wound before you can allocate more yes? he simply alloced all normal attacks to 1 model, whilst giving the rending attacks to one. its perfectly legal, heck even the BBB uses it as an example on how to minimize losses! (see page 25, right lower corner, its in the small outline)

 

fact that all DC marines are identical doesent matter in this case. ass all the armor saves that had to be rolled, were rolled. its just that one death company marine was unfortunate enough to catch 2 rending attacks to the face :P

You allocate to groups. All DC are identical in games terms, so there is no allocation to individual models. All 4 rends would kill a different DC, even if you allocated them all to 1 guy as you roll saves in groups.

 

If you have a VAS with a powerfist and 2 meltaguns and 3 boltpisol and chainswords. You take 12 wounds, 2 of which are rending. Even if you assign both rends to a particular meltagunner, both meltagunners die as they are identical and wounds carry over in the group. If you assign them both to the power fist, he dies and the excess wound is lost.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Wound allocation on complex units is really only effective if the unit is composed of multi wound models. You can spread around the automatically unsaved wounds and the unit survives as a whole since no one model dies from one wound apiece, barring instant death wounds. You can apply wounds individually instead of removing whole models since the unit is multi wound and fully complex. Nob bikers have a plethora of saves to choose from so they benefit the most.

 

Here are all the saves built into a typical nob biker unit:

 

4+ cover save (warbike)

3+ cover save if they turbo boost

5+ invulnerable save (cybork body)

FNP (pain boy)

 

Also the unit has a T6/5 warboss that can soak S8 wounds that would instant death the nobz and pain boy. The unit is basically impervious to small arms fire such as bolters and lasguns due to T5 and FNP. Personally I am hoping that the Death Company will gain 2 wounds per model and have access to wargear so that you can build a complex multi wound unit. I would also like to see Death Company give up zero killpoints if they are destroyed. It's only wishing on my part though.

 

0b :wub:

[SnorriSnorrison]

Sorry for mentioning it again, but I was right when giving the 4 rends to one model.

As Demoulius said, you can allocate the special wounds as it is said in the rulebook(was really confused that day) to one model, if every other model has its mandatory wound. That`s the best thing of the fifth edition in my opinion.

 

 

BTT:

Yes, DC are nasty, but stealers with broodlord are much more nasty, and when the broodlord is included he and his retinue would eat the DC for breakfast.

 

 

Snorri

[JamesI]

Sorry for mentioning it again, but I was right when giving the 4 rends to one model.

As Demoulius said, you can allocate the special wounds as it is said in the rulebook(was really confused that day) to one model, if every other model has its mandatory wound. That`s the best thing of the fifth edition in my opinion.

 

 

BTT:

Yes, DC are nasty, but stealers with broodlord are much more nasty, and when the broodlord is included he and his retinue would eat the DC for breakfast.

 

 

Snorri

No, you aren't righ All DC are the same, so wounds are done by groups. If DC could have different wargear, you would be right.

 

The rules for allocation come under complex units on page 25 of the rulebook. A unit is complex if at least one member has differnet profile, wargear or special rules. In the DC, everyone has the same profile, wargear and rules. Not a complex unit, no allocation.

 

Even if the unit was complex, the only way to allocate 4 rends to one model would be if each other model took at least 3 wounds. That could apply to a VAS, but not the DC.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

Sorry for mentioning it again, but I was right when giving the 4 rends to one model.

Snorri

 

No, you weren't. Death Co. are all the same model, equipped the same, etc. You have to assign and roll their saves as a group.

 

edit: Ah, JamesI already got to it.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Well, I am not aware of what stands in the english version of the RB as I only own the german one, but in the written text right before me it says that I am allowed to allocate wounds like rending and so on to one model if every model has got the wounds that are mandatory.

 

In Addition, I asked three other guys today, one qouting from the RB, who eventually agreed with me.

 

 

 

Snorri

[JamesI]

Quoting page 25 of the rulebook.

 

"Having allocated the wounds, all of the models in the unit that are identical in gaming terms take their saving throws at the same time, in one batch. Casualties can then be chosen by the owning player from amongst these identical models."

 

Everyone who is identical, as is all DC, count as 1 group. No allocation.

 

I don't know what the German book says. The English one makes is clear that allocation occurs in groups and only among complex units. The DC is not a complex unit.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Quoting page 25 of the rulebook.

 

"Having allocated the wounds, all of the models in the unit that are identical in gaming terms take their saving throws at the same time, in one batch. Casualties can then be chosen by the owning player from amongst these identical models."

 

Well, did I do anything else? I allocated the wounds(referred to first subordinate clause) so that every DC member had about three, one did have 4 rends.

Then I rolled all the dice in one batch, there was only no need to roll the four rendings.

 

 

Snorri

[JamesI]

Quoting page 25 of the rulebook.

 

"Having allocated the wounds, all of the models in the unit that are identical in gaming terms take their saving throws at the same time, in one batch. Casualties can then be chosen by the owning player from amongst these identical models."

 

Well, did I do anything else? I allocated the wounds(referred to first subordinate clause) so that every DC member had about three, one did have 4 rends.

Then I rolled all the dice in one batch, there was only no need to roll the four rendings.

 

 

Snorri

Wounds carry over between like models. All DC are alike. The rends count as failed saves. The DC who took all four rends dies, as does 3 of his identical friends.

 

REmember, the allocation rules only apply in a complex unit. Simple unit, no allocation