[WH]Project: Sisters of Battel Super Heavy

[Nelo Akuma]

Good Day.

 

I know that this would probably belong into the Apocalypse-section but I fear that only few Inquisition players actually go there and I also think that the comments from this forum will be more productive.

 

In the past days I have been talking a quite a bit with the other six local Inquisition players, four of whom play pure Sisters, and we all feel a bit left behind by the Apocalypse books. True, with an Inquisitor we can justify nearly everything but sometimes we just want to field our pure Army lists.

 

Today I sat down with the other Sisters' players and we toyed around with some ideas. The most reasonable one was the one based on a Baneblade Chassis. First we pulled out our 'Dexes to strip down the standard 500Pts Baneblade to the pure Chassis. Our Calculations:

 

500 Pts Baneblade

-100 Pts Sponsons

- 20 Pts Hull-mounted synch. Heavy Bolter

- 50 Pts Demolisher cannon

-130 Pts Baneblade cannon and Co-axial Autocannon

 

=> 200 Points for the naked Baneblade Chassis. Since the Apocalypse Books have been written with 4th Edition we used the 4th Edition Guard Codex.

 

I personally find that a rather reasonable price.

 

After that we came up with the armament, keeping in mind the general range that Sisters fight in. Thus we decided on a maximum range of 48''.

 

Seeing that we think that Sisters have enough firepower in short range we decided against Flamer weapons and thus focusing on Bolter and Melta weapons. Ranged Anti-Tank (read: more than 12'' range) is probably the biggest 'weakness' in a pure Sisters force so we looked at any ranged Melta weapon we could find in our combined books. Into mind came the Titan mounted Melta Cannon, though for this we decided to down-size the weapon:

 

Melta Cannon 130 Points

Range: 48'' Str: 8 DS: 1 Ordenance 1, 7'', Melta*

 

*Rolls a 2D6+8 for armor penetration against targets under the template. Hits the closest armor area from the center of the template.

 

We took away 16'' of range, 2 Points of Str and downsized the template as well as the penetration roll from the Titan mounted weapon. Considering that a Baneblade Chassis can support an unmodified Plasma Blastgun we think that the modified Melta Cannon too will be sufficiently supported as well.

 

Next weapon on the list was the Exorcist Launcher and thus we decided to try and calculate the value of said weapon:

 

135 Pts Exorcist

- 50 Pts Rhino Chassis

- 20 Pts Front Armor Value 13

 

=> 65 Points for the Exorcist Launcher, a reasonable price for the possible hurt this weapon can put on the opponent.

 

The next step was to consider if we wanted sponson mounted weapons or fully trade them off for a Side Armor Value of 14. We decided to take sponsons, arming the sponson itself as well as the turret on top with a synchronized Heavy Bolter each for a total sponson price of 80 Points for both sponsons.

 

Considering that the Chassis will be maned by the Sisters we wanted to the BS value of 4 and we think that a price of +25 for this is reasonable.

 

This so far leads us to the following values:

 

200 Pts Baneblade Chassis

130 Pts Melta Cannon

80 Pts Sponsons

65 Pts Exorcist Launcher

25 Pts +1 BS

 

=> 500 Pts for the vehicle alone. To us it feels like this, not counting Sister oriented special rules we are still bouncing back and forth, is a reasonable points value.

 

I'd like to hear comments on the calculations as well as the theoretical effectiveness of this setup.

 

Please leave fluff out of the picture for now, as us five are more of the people to first have something that some people think works before investing the time to come up with a reason for what we do.

[templargdt]

Seems reasonable to me, but I never play Apoc. I can't believe you have SIX guys that play inquisition in your gaming group!

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Well i posted one a while back with similar ideas, with pics and a full write up. pretty much what you have there.

 

I went with a Shadowsword base.

Traded the Lascannons for Multi Melta's

Added extra sponsors.

Upgraded Heavy Bolters with Blessed ammo

Replaced frontTwin Heavy Bolters with Inferno Cannon

Added a Excorsit Launcher

Gave it some unique rules

[Nelo Akuma]

@templargtd: i wouldn't call us Inquisition players part of the same 'gaming group'. our local GW store is simply the only store within 70 km that actually has a table bigger than 12''x12''. not to mention i am the only 'guy' playing Inquisition.

 

@Sister Rosette Soulknyt: i have seen your post back when it came around on another site. I liked the basic idea but the mix of so many different ranges felt weird to me. The Vulcano Cannon is 120'' while the rest falls between 48'' and template range. The sponsons and hull mounted weapons gave it an 'in your face' type of feeling while the rest were more of the 'sitting back' type.

 

We wanted to create something that, while having multiple weapons types, has a definite range where it should/will operate.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Well just remember your opponent wont just be at one range for longe, they will eith shoot your tank from as far as way as possible or they will assault it.

And counting in movement your either going to have to move or create a fire base out of your baneblade.

Either way most boards width are usually only 48".

 

Thats why i took the Volcana Cannon 120" for anti tank or anti titan.

* heavy bolters 36" range for anti troop

* multi melta 24" range for close support anti troop or anti tank

* excorsit launcher 48" range light anti tank heavy troop killer

* inferno cannon 24" range anti troop

 

with these i kept to the feel of the SoB weapons and wanted a diverse range to effect all areas of the table. Just remember that baneblades can, i think shoot different enemies with different weapons/turrets.

The reason i chose the Shadowsword was for the D strength weapon, SoB need a weapon that can penitrate 14 armour on more than a glancing hit. Even a Excorsist can only glance a Landraider, and even i have to roll a 6 to do it, its sad.

 

In the end its your tank, i look forward to seeing the end results, good luck.

Im testing mine agianst Tau very shortly in a 4000 point battle.

[Eddie Orlock]

Considering that the Chassis will be maned by the Sisters we wanted to the BS value of 4 and we think that a price of +25 for this is reasonable.

It's been my observation that +1 BS on a Baneblade chassis is usually valued a 100 points. I seem to recall this being being supported by the comparison of 'The Fortress of Arrogance' -Yarrick to a normal 'Blade, as well as '212' Arethusa from the latest update to Imperial Armour 1.

 

Your mileage will of course vary.

 

Were I to try to kludge a Sororita super heavy into the system, I'd probably pull the same shadow sword chassis, and mount some brand of Macro-Exorcist launcher as the primary system. 2D6 Str 9, AP 1 missiles at 72" range? Sponson mount heavy bolters for point defence, and suggest Shadowsword targetters on top of a crack adepta crew to claim skill 5

[Nelo Akuma]

@Sister Rosette Soulknyt: I don't expect the enemy to just sit there and let me blast away. I expect them to try and take it down fast. While I can now see why you choose your different weapon ranges and types to me it's still a too wild mix. Sure, on paper everything looks good and in a real battle situation my setup could proof inferior to yours but I guess it always depends on the playing style of a player.

 

Loads of people where i game like to field the Hellhammer for whatever reason but for me that configuration never worked out at all. Best it did in a single game was immobilize a Demolisher and then get blown to bits. I also never had success with vehicle mounted Flamer templates, and most of the brain behind this new Sisters vehicle hadn't either, so we decided to stay away from the Flamers.

 

I would also start to wonder where to store all that Promethium to load a Flamer when i imagine most of the insides of the Chassis to be taken by the engine to power up the Melta Cannon. Sure, we are talking WH40K here and hardly any model seems to have the 'right' size for what it does but I want to stay at least somewhat realistic.

 

Yes, the Baneblade, in fact every super heavy vehicle, can shoot it's weapons are whatever target is in range IIRC from the top of my head.

 

I see your point about D Strength weaponry but with a Melta weapon the 6 for at least glancing is the general roll and even with only glance hits I barely have problems popping that odd AV 14 vehicle i face.

 

@Eddie Orlock: Even though I stated differently in my original post, I too find 25 points for an increased Ballistic Skill way too little, but I got overruled in the group's discussion. I personally would have placed it at around 75 points.

 

So far I haven't found a Ballistic Skill of 5 on any vehicle without an upgrade character and I personally don't see it happening with the Sisters. But I will bring the idea up as a possible purchase-able upgrade.

 

 

The brain behind this will meet again on Tuesday and I'll probably take along a print-out of this thread to make sure we get to all the points mentioned. I'll update as soon as i get new infos.

[Nelo Akuma]

Sorry that this took so long but 2/3 of the brain of this project got cold feet and had to cry for mommy when some criticism came along so now it's two people with very opposite views how this should be done. But those two people are somewhat grown up and are able to discuss things without it becoming a willy comparison contest.

 

But enough whining about life and whiny gimps, on to the 'new rules':

 

The price for the naked chassis of the Baneblade remains the same, i.e. 200 points.

 

The downsized Melta Cannon too is the same as before but for completions sake here it is again

 

Melta Cannon 130 Points

Range: 48'' Str: 8 DS: 1 - Ordenance 1, 7'', Melta*

 

*Rolls a 2D6+8 for armor penetration against targets under the template. Hits the closest armor area from the center of the template.

 

The Exorcist Launcher was revamped and replaced with a modified version:

 

Grand Chapel Organ 120 points

Range: 48'' Str: 8 DS: 1 - Heavy 2D6

 

Yes, it's pretty much only two Exorcist Launcher tagged together but 'only' D6 shots feel a bit 'small' for a supposed rolling Holy Shrine of Doom. The other half of the brain wanted to make it 4d6 for 200 points but that is seriously overkill IMHO.

 

Next we come to the sponson that that really haven't changed at all: two synchronized Heavy Bolter, one mounted in the sponson and one mounted in the torrent mounted on it. Both sponson cost 80 points together.

 

Next came the case of improved BS 4. Finally the points even out at exactly 100 points at the clearly accepted value.

 

 

 

Now comes actually new stuff, read upgrades:

 

First thing is the Blessed Ammunition upgrade for 30 points. For the number of Heavy Bolter shots this vehicle can pump out I feel the points are about right.

 

Next is the Holy Icon with an increased range of 18'' for 60 points. The comparable huge price increase to the value given in the Codex but the increased range and thus potential mass of units profiting from it justify increase.

 

Lastly Veteran Sister Crew (+1 BS) for 150 points. This represents the possibility to man the vehicle with war veterans that have such a vast experience with handling heavy vehicles. While this increases the potential of the vehicle by a lot and in Apocalypse terms seems few this already is more than the cost for the Melta Cannon. I am open for ideas how to especially modify this value.

 

We were tempted to add the ability to buy the campaign veteran skills from the base rule book but that seemed like another willy comparison contest as a super heavy vehicle pretty much already has those upgrades.

 

 

 

With the hardware out of the picture lets talk about Special rules. So far there are three of them, all trying to play on the vehicle being a Holy Shrine of Doom. Though I admit that the third one is still a huge cause of discussion within the brain so I really would like some comments on that.

 

Destroy the Witch: Sisters models within 12'' of the vehicle count as Relentless.

Shrine to the God Emperor: Sister models within 12'' of the vehicle count as equipped with a Simulacrum Imperialis.

 

Give no Quarter: Sister models withing 12'' of the vehicle count as being Slow and Purposeful.

 

While we're still working on the background for those rules the reason behind seems sound at least to me: the vehicle represents the metal born will of the Emperor that inspires the Sisters to feats that are normally even beyond them.

 

With those special rules being potentially very powerful we knew we'd need to pump the points up a good way for them so lets keep it snappy and get to the counting.

 

200 Pts Baneblade Chassis

130 Pts Melta Cannon

120 Pts Grand Chapel Organ

80 Pts Sponsons

100 Pts +1 BS

 

200 - 230 Pts Special rules.

 

0 - 240 Pts Options

 

This leads to a point value between 930 and 1100 points. For the hurt this vehicle could lay down on the table and the support it can provide to advancing units I find it not too far of the target.

 

Please discuss and I'll get back to any comments asap.

[Eddie Orlock]

Lastly Veteran Sister Crew (+1 BS) for 150 points. This represents the possibility to man the vehicle with war veterans that have such a vast experience with handling heavy vehicles. While this increases the potential of the vehicle by a lot and in Apocalypse terms seems few this already is more than the cost for the Melta Cannon. I am open for ideas how to especially modify this value.

On Shadowswords when the Skill enhancing targetters are selected a pair of Lascannons are given up.When I was originally suggesting the option for Skill five, it was to be that crack crew got the tank to skill four, and that a couple of sponson hard points were given over to targeting arrays for skill five. Not that 150 is exactly unfair.

 

Why does it grant both slow and purposeful and relentless? Slow and purposeful grants relentless in its description in the rulebook. Based on guard tanks with commissariat crews, I think you're over valuing the special rules.

 

Given its lack of Void Fields and its armaments, I'm not convinced its more effective than a Warhound, and probably shouldn't cost more to start with, I'd guess somewhere between 650 and 700, plus upgrades.

[Nelo Akuma]

Emperor curse my internet provider. Been nearly a month without access and the other brain half of this projects simply disappeared for 3 of those weeks. finally managed to track her down and force her to go over it again.

 

@Eddie Orlock:

On Shadowswords when the Skill enhancing targetters are selected a pair of Lascannons are given up.When I was originally suggesting the option for Skill five, it was to be that crack crew got the tank to skill four, and that a couple of sponson hard points were given over to targeting arrays for skill five. Not that 150 is exactly unfair.

 

I took a slightly different approach when I envisioned the reasons behind the BS change. The Baneblade chassis by nature is a IG vehicle, thus not getting the same high tech hardware as Astartes or the Inquisition when they drop some extra coin. The first BS+1 (bringing it to BS4) symbolizes that the 'low grade' hardware was replaced with standard SoB tech.

 

The second BS+1 simply stands for above average crew that has over long service learned the fine details in reading screen data and similar. Of course both things could be simply interchanged so that the crew makes the BS4 and the high tech the BS5, to each their own.

 

Why does it grant both slow and purposeful and relentless? Slow and purposeful grants relentless in its description in the rulebook. Based on guard tanks with commissariat crews, I think you're over valuing the special rules.

 

Here we see the shameful results of not keeping ones notes organized. On the evening of the last post I simply pulled out all notes and crossed out what I had typed, leading to the above problem. The last post has been edited in text and point value.

 

Given its lack of Void Fields and its armaments, I'm not convinced its more effective than a Warhound, and probably shouldn't cost more to start with, I'd guess somewhere between 650 and 700, plus upgrades.

 

While I don't claim that the vehicle will be able to put as much hurt on the opponent as a Warhound I have to conter with a question of my own: is Yarrick's Baneblade (The Fortress of Arrogance IIRC) worth its near 850? for the extra 350 points above the standard Baneblade we get +1BS, a special rule against Ork and IG models in reach gain Ld 10 and rerolls on morals. I personally think that THAT is more overprized than what we came up with so far.

 

I won't deny that a Warhound can lay down way more hurt but the again I find the Warhound to be more than point efficient. Actually i believe that the Warhound could be a upped a little bit in points but that is a discussion for another time.

 

Hope I was able to reply to your satisfaction.

 

 

Now onto the new changes that befell the vehicle (we finally need to come up with a name........):

 

Weapons, Hardware and Upgrades: no changes here as it feels to be a solid base.

 

Special Rules: now here comes new stuff. Like Eddie Orlock pointed out the overlapping rules have been taken care of.

 

Shrine to the God Emperor: Sister models within 12'' of the vehicle count as equipped with a Simulacrum Imperialis.

 

Give no Quarter: Sister models withing 12'' of the vehicle count as being Slow and Purposeful.

 

To Victory or to Death: now here the brain can't agree. One sides wants this to represent Fearless, the other sides wants it to represent Feel no Pain. Both seems reasonable in their own right but both together is utterly overkill. Please give me your thoughts on this.

 

 

The points have changed only a little and that only in the Special rules part:

 

200 Pts Baneblade Chassis

130 Pts Melta Cannon

120 Pts Grand Chapel Organ

80 Pts Sponsons

100 Pts +1 BS

200 Pts Special rules.

0 - 240 Pts Options

 

This gives a base cost of 820 Points. I personally find that rather reasonable from my PoV.

 

- Nelo Akuma

[Adeptus Titanicus]

The Fortress of Arrogance also gives you a free 185 point character. I think you have overpriced the BS increase - it should be about 60 Points. I would drop The 'To victory or to death' rule, toning you SR's down to about 135 points. That gives you a base cost of 695 points, something much more fair. I have written rules for a SoB superheavy, but it is a 1650 point Leviathan Variant. It is more that twice as powerful as yours, I would guess, but we have agreed it is fair.

Cam