Ferrus Manus=lame?

[c-wrex]

So I've been thinking about this for a few days, and want to get your opinions on it. I think the biggest example of dropping the ball by a primarch is Ferrus Manus, for a few reasons.

 

First, what is such a well known hothead doing leading any sort of military force anyway? A commander needs to be rational and calm, and not get all fired up and wrathful before each battle. I believe it was in Fulgrim where we see the Iron Hands chasing around and trying to find/catch the Diasporex, without even being able to figure out why they are there in the first place. Then, the Emperor's Children show up and Fulgrim and his captains pretty much figures it all out in a big Astartes board meeting involving both legion's high officers. All the while Fulgrim is prodding them with questions and treating all the Iron Hands like simpletons. Because, ya know, based on the evidence...

 

Second, Isstvan. So, here we have Corax, Vulkan, and then Ferrus. All three whole legions, plus their entire respective fleets of warships, have uncontested orbital superiority over top of the basically flat area the warmastah decides to barrack in. Ferrus proceeds to unleash a very short barrage, and then commits his entire legionnary force to an assault on a fortified spot, without any reinforcements. See, what would have been the smart decision would have been to drop the hammer, and lay down the law on those traitors with a constant, uninterrupted barrage from space. Nonstop lance strikes, magma bombs, and nukes. Plus, why doesn't he just virus bomb the whole landing site? There were no locals in the line of fire, no innocents near the battlefield, why not just drop a couple virus torpedoes down and wipe out all of the traitors and their primarchs? Can you imagine what the effect on the overall war would have been if the traitors on Isstvan had been all slain? Even if they killed one or two enemy primarchs? The rest may have just stopped fighting when the spell of madness tinting their visision was cleared by the harsh reality of the Emperor's justice! Now, yes, the three loyalists were attacked by the traitors that were meant as their reinforcements, but what if the four arrived to find the three, unopposed in orbit over a planet scoured of all life by orbital artillery, the warmaster, dead on the surface? One or two of them, or all of them, may have returned to loyalty on the spot, Or they might have stayed renegades and attacked the three, or fled. Point is, they would have remained a weak, leaderless faction, soon to be stopped.

 

So, based on those two points, I claim that Ferrus Manus was a crap primarch, and should never have been left in charge of anything. What are your thoughts?

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Ferrus doesn't lay claim to the "Hot head of the year, Primarch catergory" award. He faces stiff competition from leman Russ and Angron.

[c-wrex]

But he still did lead three legions in an ill planned and very rage-inspired assault against a superior enemy position. Besides, I'm not saying that he was the most irrationally angry, but he does have some anger issues that do affect his command.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

But he still did lead three legions in an ill planned and very rage-inspired assault against a superior enemy position. Besides, I'm not saying that he was the most irrationally angry, but he does have some anger issues that do affect his command.

 

No he didn't

 

He led SIX legions against 3, he felt that he outnumbered Horus. Ferrus didn't know half his force would turn traitor once he was commited to the assault.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

But he still did lead three legions in an ill planned and very rage-inspired assault against a superior enemy position. Besides, I'm not saying that he was the most irrationally angry, but he does have some anger issues that do affect his command.

 

No he didn't

 

He led SIX legions against 3, he felt that he outnumbered Horus. Ferrus didn't know half his force would turn traitor once he was commited to the assault.

[c-wrex]

Well, actually, it was seven, not six.

 

But he still did lead three legions in an ill planned and very rage-inspired assault against a superior enemy position. Besides, I'm not saying that he was the most irrationally angry, but he does have some anger issues that do affect his command.

 

No he didn't

 

Actually, he did.

However only three were present when he launched his attack/fought the battle. The rest weren't even in system yet. He couldn't have known they were traitors, and Horus and his followers weren't going to be leaving, so Ferrus had no real reason to not wait until he attacked. During which, he could have, oh, I don't know, dropped like a hundred nukes onto Horus' positions.

[Donkey Kong]

Isstvan V, I think you have a bit off wrong. We have the entirety of 3 legions, the Iron Hands, the Salamanders and the Raven Guard. In addition to this, Ferrus has the promise of reinforcement from 4 legions, the Iron Warriors, the Night Lords, the Word Bearers and, I believe, the Alpha Legion.

 

Horus and his boys are in one of the best constructed fortresses, basically ever seen.

 

He could have nuked and lanced the fortress until he ran out of things to throw, but even then the fortress might still be standing, the traitor legions would still have remnants of their forces and considering how much time went into the fortress constructed by the perfect marines I don't think it would be a just a simple little bastion. More like a complex crazy machine second only to something the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors could knock together.

 

The Virus bombs on Isstvan III weren't even good at killing all the marines in sealed bunkers, let alone a super fortress fit for four traitor legions. As for killing primarchs, by this time Fulgrim had already sold his lot with Slaanesh, they've all gone crazy or dead. The Death Guard are dead (pun) loyal to Morty and their captains and all of their remaining captains are loyal to Horus. The Sons of Horus are loyal to the Warmaster beyond everyone. Angrons boys are so out of it they're not going to stop regardless of what happens to Angron. Hell, Khan took a dozer blade on Isstvan III and he's still kicking about, like hell a couple bombs are going to stop them.

 

As for the traitors coming in disguised as reinforcements:

Word Bearers: Psycho religious fanatics, they're not changing their minds anytime soon.

Iron Warriors: Hate the loyalists because he thinks they're favored more than his legion.

Night Lords: Have proven their sadistic mentality, they might turn back, but then again he's already seen the worst possible future.

Alpha Legion: They're in it for themselves.

 

Ferrus has 3 legions with him, 4 legions in reserve, god knows how much Imperial Army men and armor, he's bombed what he thinks a fit amount, ie enough to put a hole somewhere and he feels that it's necessary to tell that poncy prick Fulgrim what for with his own damned sword. Vulkan has never proved himself a perfectly brilliant tactical guy and neither has Corax. Albeit, Corax knows how to organize an infiltration, but he's not one for storming the fortress.

 

Ferrus was a damned good Primarch, he was tricked and paid the price for it. He was the most fit out of those present at the time of the initial assault and he is a tragic member of the list of those killed during the seven years of war caused by the Horus Heresy. He was far more fit to lead a legion than Angron.

[c-wrex]

Vulkan has never proved himself a perfectly brilliant tactical guy and neither has Corax. Albeit, Corax knows how to organize an infiltration, but he's not one for storming the fortress.

 

Ferrus was a damned good Primarch, he was tricked and paid the price for it. He was the most fit out of those present at the time of the initial assault and he is a tragic member of the list of those killed during the seven years of war caused by the Horus Heresy. He was far more fit to lead a legion than Angron.

 

We don't know anything at all about Vulkan or Corax' leadership abilities, so there's no telling how well they would have led. Your opinion of Ferrus being the most fit for the attack is just opinion. We have seen that for at least one legion wide activity in the hunt for the Diasporex, that Ferrus is incapable of defeating a foe on his own, without using the aid of another primarch. And Angron is a whole different matter. The Emprah needed to do a lot of father son talking time there, and angie would have been better for t, but that's another matter entirely.

 

I don't see how you can claim the traitors on Isstvan 5 had one of the most prepared defensive positions ever. Sure, it may have been good, but one of the best ever? On what evidence do you make that claim? The seeking of perfection of the Emperor's Children might make them try to make a very good set of fortifications, but there are two whole legions far better at it than they are (IF and IW, respectively).

 

And how do you know that the virus bombs wouldn't have worked? We see in the novels that any marines exposed to atmosphere, even through their armor, will die in the toxic bio rain. And yeah, he could have done it, and the fortress may still have been standing, you could be right...

 

Or maybe it would be a pounded pile of rubble, tastefully decorated with dead traitor marines. I doubt they could survive hundreds of million degree laser lance strikes, hundreds of megaton equivalent nuclear torpedos, and whatever ordnance they receive (and there would be tons of it. TONS!) Three whole astartes battle fleets unleashing non stop death on the enemy positions for hours? A fraction of the enemy would be the only amount left.

 

Good discussion so far, guys.

[Mahoo]

he's bombed what he thinks a fit amount, ie enough to put a hole somewhere and he feels that it's necessary to tell that poncy prick Fulgrim what for with his own damned sword.

 

well said lmao.

 

I think that Isstvan III kind of proved that virus bombs aren't a sure fire way of getting the job done. The marines there didnt even have half the protection given by a fullly jazzed up bastion, yet they still held out for ages before they were over-run.

 

Plus even if dropping every piece of ordnance they had, then nose-diving their own strike cruisers and flag ships into it would work, they wouldn't.

they have that realy annoying thing, ye know, honour

 

Sure ferrus was a hot head, but can you imagine the whispers at the next family dinner if he decided to just do that instead of taking pretty boys head and mounting it on his flagship. (if he could have taken pretty boy that is)

[c-wrex]

I think that Isstvan III kind of proved that virus bombs aren't a sure fire way of getting the job done. The marines there didnt even have half the protection given by a fullly jazzed up bastion, yet they still held out for ages before they were over-run.

 

Plus even if dropping every piece of ordnance they had, then nose-diving their own strike cruisers and flag ships into it would work, they wouldn't.

they have that realy annoying thing, ye know, honour

 

Sure ferrus was a hot head, but can you imagine the whispers at the next family dinner if he decided to just do that instead of taking pretty boys head and mounting it on his flagship. (if he could have taken pretty boy that is)

 

I bet they would have congradulated him for taking the planet and destroying the traitors with maximum efficiency and speed. Honor isn't reserved for traitors. In fact as far as survival is concerned, honor is really rather worthless. Case in point: Alpha Legion. They couldn't care less about honor, but they got everything accomplished they said they would.

 

Back to Ferrus, I still say that he should have simply slammed the traitors with every bit of ordnance he had at his disposal. He had no reason not to, and as a result of his rash actions, almost three whole legions, not to mention one loyal primarch, were nearly completely obliterated. Who knows what would have happened otherwise.

 

Thoughts?

[Tutteman]

Plus, why doesn't he just virus bomb the whole landing site? There were no locals in the line of fire, no innocents near the battlefield, why not just drop a couple virus torpedoes down and wipe out all of the traitors and their primarchs?

 

So, based on those two points, I claim that Ferrus Manus was a crap primarch, and should never have been left in charge of anything. What are your thoughts?

 

Because that would be a very poor story ;) And the loyalists arived...bombed the enemy and were back in time for tea. Being serious I think it very likely that Horus has virus proof defences. He's seen the affect of Virus bombs, he used them! He'll want to make sure he isn't done in the same way. Sure Ferrus should have pulled back the attack when the other four legions arrived, but he was angry. i personally find it ironical that it was the mechanically cold Primarch who is most angry but what makes characters interesting, flaws. (In which case the Primarchs are some of the most "interesting" bunch of fiction in ages :D )

 

As for normal bombardment, can I refer you to the Somme offensive? The British dropped 1 million shells onto the German lines and felt one hundred percent sure that all German defenders were dead. Result, biggest military diaster in British History with 21,000 dead in one day, by the end of the war both sides stopped going fo rweek long bombardments and went for hour long ones. Slamming the traitors with ordanace probably wouldn't have much impact on them, they've had over six MONTHS to prepare for this. Thats how we know they have massive defences. Nice discussion though and your argument is well reasoned (But i have to defend Ferrus, Primarchs honour ;) )

[Donkey Kong]

Fulgrim was given literal months to prepare the fortifications at Isstvan V.

 

However only three were present when he launched his attack/fought the battle. The rest weren't even in system yet. He couldn't have known they were traitors, and Horus and his followers weren't going to be leaving, so Ferrus had no real reason to not wait until he attacked. During which, he could have, oh, I don't know, dropped like a hundred nukes onto Horus' positions.

 

Nukes can only do so much. Also, it's not the initial bombing that causes all the fuss with nukes, it's the fallout, the radiation. Following your logic, Ferrus should have spent the next sixty years playing dominoes with Corax and Vulkan, and then he should have invited Pert, Curze, Lorgar and Alpharious to join in the fun. If Horus was still kicking, rinse and repeat.

 

legion wide activity in the hunt for the Diasporex

 

Forgive me if I'm wrong, weren't they basically running around trying to deliberately avoid the Iron Hands who wanted to tear them apart limb from limb. Also, wasn't their fleet extremely small? And isn't space, y'know, huge? Also, even if they're confined to a certain (read: huge) space of a huge void it's going to be hard to find them, even with the entire legion working at it. Fulgrim only really nailed it down once they looked at where they're collecting resources, something Ferrus didn't really think about.

 

to quote myself:

 

The Virus bombs on Isstvan III weren't even good at killing all the marines in sealed bunkers

 

Now, looking at that logic, and adding to it the fact that Emperor's Children built a fortress to defend against Astartes, they're probably in there pretty tight. I think it's ridiculous to think that Fulgrim's lot couldn't put together something nicer.

 

Also, just to give the Virus bomb ordeal a good knock, only Horus and the Emperor were allowed to sanction their use. Ferrus may not have even had them. As for lancing the world into tiny pieces, hey, maybe it could work. Or maybe Fulgrim put his rock together tight and lancing something to pieces isn't the best option.

 

As far as fortresses go, anything constructed by Astartes can basically be summed down to being better. Yes, the Iron Warriors and the Imperial Fists are famed for it, I even said they were, but the Emperor's Children like their things perfect. I have no doubt that Fulgrim put together something damned nice.

 

The Iron Warriors are famed for their Iron Cage (which the Imperial Fists eventually breached), the Imperial Fists are famed for making the Emperor's palace the fortification it was at the Battle of Terra and it took: The Sons of Horus, The Death Guard, The World Eaters, the Iron Warriors, and I think, the Word Bearers to give that nut a good crack. Plus, while they did have a time issue, they didn't have a force of four legions kicking them from behind.

 

Corax and his legion are famed for the fast strikes. Vulkan's legion is famed for making nice things and close fire fights. The Iron Hands are probably the most siege fit Legions present, hell if Perturabo was there and loyal and Ferrus didn't put him in command I would say he was bad, but he wasn't and he wasn't, so Ferrus was left.

 

Ferrus wasn't a bad leader.

 

Also, if the Astartes fleets could really just bomb everything into submission, why did Horus decide to land on Davin's moon? Why did Fulgrim send a ground force to Murder? Why did the Luna Wolves storm the False Emperor's (presented in Horus Rising) palace? Hell, in our modern world, why don't we just blow countries into giblets with artillery?

 

Pride? Ferrus had a ton of that, and Fulgrim wasn't going to get away with snooting at it. Wanting the land? Honestly, I doubt anyone cared about Isstvan V, if they made an Alderaan out of it, I don't think anyone would really mind. But Pride overrules everything for the Astartes. Why don't the Red Scorpions wear camouflage? Because camo is for chumps. Why don't the Emperor's Children take a chill pill and relax a bit? Because being perfect is all that matters. Why does Perturabo have an inferiority complex? Because he hates the garrison duty that his legion gets stuck with.

 

Ferrus had a temper, sure, but all the Primachs did. When you have godlike power and you don't have the benevolence of a god, you have problems. And the Primachs had those problems.

 

Dorn nearly killed Garro for speaking against Horus.

Curze attacked Dorn.

Pert went traitor because he wasn't given a more active role.

Lion and Alpharious are either paranoid (ie don't tell anyone anything) or have a serious superiority complex.

Russ and Angron were brutes (albeit, I love them both).

Magnus thought he knew more than the Emperor.

 

None of the primarchs were perfect, but even Angron and Russ could lead their legions, and they did so successfully. Angron got the World Eaters to be feared by everyone. Russ did near the same with his Wolves. Psychopath Curze beat a criminal world into submission. This is going a bit off topic, but the Primarchs were warlords, and they did what they did well.

 

Honestly, I can't see the results of the Isstvan V landing being different even if they had bombed the planet into chunks. It was still the remnants of 4 legions and an additional 4 traitor legions against 3 unsuspecting loyalist legions.

[Dràyhèn]

BECAUSE

If you know something about the virusbombs and things that deadly, you also know that The Emperor itself forbade their use, save for the extreme conditions, and even then only Horus was given the authority to unleash them.

 

And Horus was one hell of a Warmaster, do you think he would have chosen a place to make a stand on, where he could've been just nuked and torpedoed to death?

 

Then there is this Astartes pride-issue...

[Allerka]

KHK summed it up pretty well, but I'll throw in a little psychobabble.

 

Ferrus had been directly betrayed by his closest brother, Fulgrim. A man he had known for decades or longer, trusted utterly, walked into his personal sanctum, beat the stuffing out of him (though I remain convinced Ferrus should have easily won that fight ;) ), and stole one of his most treasured artifacts. Understandably, Ferrus was upset by this, which was part of why he wanted to fight Fulgrim personally. The Primarchs were never known for benevolence or humility, and one has to remember how utterly obsessed with pride the Astartes are.

 

As it was established by others, bombardments can only do so much. They hammered the fortress, and drove in. The attack even went incredibly well to start. Problem is, the Salamanders and Raven Guard wanted to hang back and wait for the other Legions, which led the Iron Hands to getting cut off and nearly annihilated. And that's where the battle really went south. If all three Legions had pushed in and hit as hard as they could before the second wave arrived, the other four Legions would likely have arrived to find Fulgrim AND Horus' heads mounted on a shiny stick.

[Tutteman]

BECAUSE

If you know something about the virusbombs and things that deadly, you also know that The Emperor itself forbade their use, save for the extreme conditions, and even then only Horus was given the authority to unleash them.

 

I'd say that a full uprising by Three legion would count as extreme conditions ;) ;)

[Tutteman]

DOUBLE POST ;) ;) :P :P

[c-wrex]

wall 'o text...

 

Honestly, I can't see the results of the Isstvan V landing being different even if they had bombed the planet into chunks. It was still the remnants of 4 legions and an additional 4 traitor legions against 3 unsuspecting loyalist legions.

 

Really? So even though they had months to prepare, with only infantry and tanks to defend it, they were able to build a structure capable of withstanding NUCLEAR (as in e=mc2 levels of killy) bombardment for any longer than... let's say six hours. Every ship in the fleet launches a salvo at the Urgalls, waits for the immediate effects to end, then repeats, for six hours straight? And then you throw down some virus bombs on their heads? They'd survive that? Really? You can't see what the results of nonstop nuclear assault would be? I'll give you a hint: it's a wasteland, with superheated air, liquified ground, and whatever eensy beensy bits of rubble that dared survive.

 

I don't see how anybody thinks that the Emperor's Children could have built a structure that could repel that kind of firepower. The kind of firepower that make stars work, for crying out loud!

 

When I reference the Diasporex, I refer to the fact that Ferrus couldn't even divine the reasons why the Diasporex were in such a small section of space (and yes I get space is huge, I'm going to school for astronomy), and how he could deduce where they might be until Fulgrim and his cronies had that big meaning and figured out they need fuel and stuff. Fulgrim practically walks the assembled warriors, and Ferrus, through the logic and does so in such a condescending way that you'd think he was talking to a room full of imbeciles.

 

Again, we have no idea or examples of how Corax or Vulkan planned sieges or conducted such operations, but I doubt that would have decided to just rush the gates en masse. I think this is another example of honor getting in the way of sound strategy. So Ferrus was upset (in a big way) by Fulgrim. How do you show disdain for a warrior and his skills? Kill him from far away, laugh as he ineffectually tries to escape, and think of him or his so called skills never again. Fulgrim and the boys weren't so skilled they could dodge nukes.

 

Bombardments can only do so much? Know what they can do? Knock down fortresses and kill their defenders. If I Ferrus, I'd have ordered aforementioned bombardment, then launched the Raven Guard at the flanks, the Salamanders to the rear, and the Iron Hands Morlocks right up the center. As an additional measure of security, I'd order some of each legion to remain behind and man the guns and big ships.

 

All in all, I think his attack was poorly designed, and turned a potential great victory into an assured tragic defeat.

[Tutteman]

Really? So even though they had months to prepare, with only infantry and tanks to defend it, they were able to build a structure capable of withstanding NUCLEAR (as in e=mc2 levels of killy) bombardment for any longer than... let's say six hours. Every ship in the fleet launches a salvo at the Urgalls, waits for the immediate effects to end, then repeats, for six hours straight? And then you throw down some virus bombs on their heads? They'd survive that? Really? You can't see what the results of nonstop nuclear assault would be? I'll give you a hint: it's a wasteland, with superheated air, liquified ground, and whatever eensy beensy bits of rubble that dared survive.

 

I don't see how anybody thinks that the Emperor's Children could have built a structure that could repel that kind of firepower. The kind of firepower that make stars work, for crying out loud!

 

When I reference the Diasporex, I refer to the fact that Ferrus couldn't even divine the reasons why the Diasporex were in such a small section of space (and yes I get space is huge, I'm going to school for astronomy), and how he could deduce where they might be until Fulgrim and his cronies had that big meaning and figured out they need fuel and stuff. Fulgrim practically walks the assembled warriors, and Ferrus, through the logic and does so in such a condescending way that you'd think he was talking to a room full of imbeciles.

 

Again, we have no idea or examples of how Corax or Vulkan planned sieges or conducted such operations, but I doubt that would have decided to just rush the gates en masse. I think this is another example of honor getting in the way of sound strategy. So Ferrus was upset (in a big way) by Fulgrim. How do you show disdain for a warrior and his skills? Kill him from far away, laugh as he ineffectually tries to escape, and think of him or his so called skills never again. Fulgrim and the boys weren't so skilled they could dodge nukes.

 

Bombardments can only do so much? Know what they can do? Knock down fortresses and kill their defenders. If I Ferrus, I'd have ordered aforementioned bombardment, then launched the Raven Guard at the flanks, the Salamanders to the rear, and the Iron Hands Morlocks right up the center. As an additional measure of security, I'd order some of each legion to remain behind and man the guns and big ships.

 

All in all, I think his attack was poorly designed, and turned a potential great victory into an assured tragic defeat.

 

However, by your logic that means Corax and Vulkan are also idiots or they would have pointed out that Ferrus' plan was crap. And I think that Fulgrim had massive Mechanicum machines to help, not just guys with spades...although that is a nice image ;) To be fair, Ferrus launched a massive bombing and lets face it, 400 hundred nukes or 40000 nukes, you'd expect to kill people. Lets face it, it wasn't the best move by Ferrus, but neither of his equals countermanded them, and I expect Horus would have made SOME contigency plans.

[Donkey Kong]

You keep falling back on virus bombs . . . they don't even mention that they have virus bombs. Virus bombs are literally the Emperor's dirty little secret, he hates them. He hates using them, he hates even having to bring them out. Only the Emperor and the Warmaster are even sanctioned to use them. Ferrus, Vulkan and Corax may not, and probably don't, even have virus bombs. The Eisenstein had virus bombs on board because it was a part of the Warmaster's fleet. They were there with the full intention of being used to bomb the loyalists on Isstvan III.

 

As for nukes, the real issue with nukes is more fallout than the initial bombardment. I'd actually argue that a lance is probably a bigger issue than a nuke. As for constant bombardment for six hours, a nuke is a nuke, it's an explosion and then fallout (which can be very detrimental to a ground assault considering radiation and all the other fun things that come with it). There are three legion fleets present at this assault, Ferrus does bomb them, and for my argument of lance > nuke (which is pure speculation, mind), he probably put a hole in something.

 

Bombardments can only do so much? Know what they can do? Knock down fortresses and kill their defenders.

 

If I punch a wall, I might put a dent in it. If I punch it enough, I'll put a hole in it and maybe knock it over. Ferrus was anything but patient, and none of the other Primarchs really tried to stop him. They even landed with him, so they couldn't have all disagreed with Ferrus. And even if Ferrus did bombard the fortress to hell and back a dozen times over, so what? What if it was still standing, what if the fortress had a shield not unlike the Emperor's palace? It may have even had one, it's been a while since I read Fulgrim . . . should do that again. Also, even on Earth we have nuclear fallout shelters, they're deep below the surface and I would assume (or rather, hope), they're very safe. I doubt it wouldn't have occurred to Fulgrim that he should build some, and considering the machines of the Astartes it probably wouldn't have taken a terrible long time.

 

So, not realizing that an alien vessel which Ferrus doesn't even know the workings of requires fuel makes him and every single one of his Captains daft? Okay, let's roll with it, some of the Primarchs are very hard in the head. Angron and Russ don't have much besides a switch that says honor and another one that says kill. Fulgrim, another Primarch who most of us agree as being one of the more knowledgeable, poncy and tactical thinking sees this and points it out. Also, Ferrus was scanning the space if I remember correctly and the aliens were running around collecting fuel when they could.

 

The fluff really does seem to summarize that the Primarchs had their strengths and not much more. Dorn was a tactician, a defender and a siege master, Perturabo was much of the same. Curze was a terrorist, Fulgrim a perfectionist, Russ and Angron warriors, Vulkan a craftsman and Corax a guerrilla operative.

 

Vulkan had nice toys, Corax was used to being a sneaky little weasel. Ferrus was the head of the legion that didn't believe in weakness. Out of all of them, Ferrus was probably the most accustom to armored assaults, probably even having the greatest number of tanks. They had the backup of an unspecified force of Imperial army infantry and armor. They had the promise of four legions backing them up from Dorn, the guardian of Terra itself. Ferrus was tricked and it went downhill from there.

 

If I Ferrus, I'd have ordered aforementioned bombardment, then launched the Raven Guard at the flanks, the Salamanders to the rear, and the Iron Hands Morlocks right up the center. As an additional measure of security, I'd order some of each legion to remain behind and man the guns and big ships.

 

Failure move as a tactician, much? The Morlocks are maybe a company strong. They're the Iron Hands elite. Why in gods name would you rush just them up the center? The Salamanders in the rear? You would like to place the legion which prides itself on close range weapons in the rear? And flanking with the Raven Guard, it's a fortress, flanking won't do much, even for the guerrilla mastermind of the Emperor's armies. Flanking the outside force, maybe, but even then I'd be more reliant on drop pods for the task. Plus with your plan you've disregarded the Imperial Army, the group which should seriously be bombarding the traitors (which I'll remind you, they did). As for the ships, the Legions had serfs for that.

 

The Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Slamanders were a legion shorter than the traitors, the traitors had their own army supplement and getting smacked from behind with four more traitor legions isn't going to work from the beginning. Ferrus took his beach head. If the four incoming legions were all loyal, the Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard wouldn't be in the exact vice that they were in and Horus would really have been screwed. Additional munitions for the tanks already present, additional Astates, the traitors would have been outnumbered by three legions.

 

A trap is a trap, and no one saw this one coming.

 

Even if they did bombard the traitors' fortress, you have four incoming traitor legion fleets. Ferrus was screwed even if he'd waited. Horus may have survived the loyalist bombardment and we're still back at square one.

 

Falling back on Ferrus not realizing aliens were refueling isn't exactly a good reason for him to be a tactical idiot.

Saying that Lucius managed to sneak in a huge group of the Emperor's Children on Isstvan III doesn't make him a genius either.

 

Ferrus was in no way a terrible tactician. Prideful and overzealous, maybe. But he knew he had four more legions coming to reinforce him (or so he thought) and he knew he had a number of Imperial army forces behind him.

 

This was a tragedy, not because of Ferrus' bad decision, but because of the unseen treachery that nearly wiped out three loyalist legions.

[c-wrex]

Hahahahahaha YES it kicks up such a firestorm when you criticize a primarch :)

 

Ok, KHK, you bring up most of the best points, which I'd like to address.

 

1. Virus Bombs, I do keep going back to them because they do the job very well. It doesn't say they do have them, true, but it also doesn't say that they don't have them. I think they would have permission to annihilate the biggest traitors to the human race ever.

 

2. Nukes, yes I know that nukes have awhole lot of fallout radiation, but that is current technology. Who knows what kind of massive warheads they have 28 thousand years in the future? And the biggest danger of nukes in this case is not radiation, it's "Holy crap nuuuuu-KAPOOOOOOOOOW!!!!!!" We could say fine, let's say he just lance struck them for a few hours. He still would have killed thousands of traitors, and puntctured many of their defensive measures. This is where the virus bomb statement comes into play. If the fort is holed in so many places, breached all over the walls, then it can't keep all all the nasty germs. Given how many of the ECs where twisted and deformed at this point, many of them would be unable to wear their helmets, and I wager not every single astartes inside would be fully covered up.

 

3. Shields, ok so maybe the traitors have them. Maybe even a few good ones. But on par with the ones at the imperial palace? I hardly doubt that, or I reserve my biggest gripes for Dorn's defenses. There is no way the traitors have anything that they built in six months (where did we pick this number, anyway? I don't recall a specific time in Fulgrim, but I could be wrong) that could withstand at least ten battlebarges and at least fifteen strike cruisers couldn't wear down with a few hours of bombardment. Rolling volleys of laser lances, magma torpedoes, and nuclear explosions would flatten any energy shield they may have had on site.

 

4. The Diasporex. What makes them all daft is that the Imperials fail to realize that a deep space culture would need a very efficient energy source, and in space, it doesn't get more efficient or powerful than solar energy, and being that they were chasing the human/alien alliance around a few systems, they didn't think to check that out. The Emprah was supposed to have educated each primarch in turn about the new technology he was bringing to them right, barring Angron of course, teaching them the facts about space travel, warfare and the like? What did Manus do, forget?

 

5. I don't think the Morlocks are only a company strong in a modern codex sense. I am pretty sure (read: not 100%, if somebody could give exact figures I'd appreciate it) that that formation was at least a thousand veterans strong. Put them at the front, follow them with the rest of the legion's forces, and march them towards the center of the ruined bastion, while the RG infiltrate the punctured defenses, and the Salamanders approach from the rear, burning anything they find, and pushing into the blasted and destroyed (remember that gigantic bombardment? This is exploiting the damage done during it.) keep, pushing all traitors back with fire and bolt onto the approaching Iron Hands.

 

6. Imperial Army. There's another thing! How come they didn't land with army troopers to keep up the bombardment on the ground (of locations scouted by the Raven Guard)? I'm sure with all these forces in place, Manus must have had at least one hundred seperate vessels in orbit, from large cruisers, to escorts. All of those firing constantly at Horus' position would surely have annihilated him and all his cronies.

 

7. The arrival of 'reinforcements'. As I said, there was no way for Ferrus to know they were going to stab (read: shoot many, many, MANY times) him in the back, so I don't fault him at all for what happened after the four arrived.

 

All in all, I don't think he handled the invasion well.

 

:mellow: This is fun. Pick on a primarch and people freak!

[The emperors chosen]

Actually Ferrus only brought the morlock with him,the rest of his legion was supposed to arrive later.As to why he didn't bomb the planet, his brother betrayed him, and he wanted his head. Why do you think the emperor went to kill Horus? We also don't know how strong Fulgrims defenses were,they may have planned for nukes and virus bombs.there is also the chance that it was a necron fortress( it said it was a strange black rock...)it has been states that he thought he had a 2:1 advantage over the traitors,so he thought that he would be able to make an assault.

My 2 cents

[Donkey Kong]

I'm more of a Curze, Dorn, Fulgrim, Russ guy myself, won't stop me defending Iron Man though. In other words, I haven't flipped quite yet.

 

Virus bombs: may or may not, in a tactical situation, if you are unsure of your assets, then they really aren't assets. It's never stated that they're given permission either. So this is all up in the air, kind of like how there is one individual who is dead set on believing that Loken was a psyker and everyone on Isstvan III lived. . . don't know his name but that drives me up a wall.

 

Do we know how long Ferrus bombed them? It could very well have been several hours of constant bombardment before even making landfall and the fortress was still there. Also, if there are bomb shelters, yes, they could hold out against the life-eater which eventually consumes itself and the bombardment which will have eventually ceased.

 

A shield is a shield, especially an energy one. How long did Vervunhive hold out against Zoica's bombardment? They could have held out forever if Zoica just kept dropping bombs.

 

Given how many of the ECs where twisted and deformed at this point

 

;) what? So, the Emperor's Children were all malformed beast creatures by this point? Or a percentage of them were? That's truly hilarious, and they've been Slaanesh's lacky for how long? Fulgrim doesn't give in until after killing Ferrus and the Emperor's Children may be high on extacy and Bequa may have summoned Daemonettes, but they're not that far at this point. Besides, if you want to follow your logic about virus bombs, the life-eater is more than capable of penetrating the suit. Radiation can be sealed out, but the Emperor's Children will take as big a hit as the other three legions if they're really just nuked.

 

The Morlocks were like Fulgrim's Phoenix Guard, the best of the best of the best. They weren't numerous any way you push it.

 

They did land the army troops, it was mostly made up of MBTs, but they landed and they tried blowing chunks out of the fortress.

 

I'm really getting tired, someone take over for me.

[The emperors chosen]

Also, on istvaan 3,the loyalists survive by getting into bunkers,and as Fulgrim built a fortress, Ferrus might have realized that virus bombs wouldn't work. The fortress was on a dead world as well,so the virus would have been less effective,as there would be less biomatter to destroy.

[Midgard]

One thing about the fortifications built by Fulgrim and his lot - we are talking about 28,000 or so additional years of technological development. In the history of warfare, one pattern is rather common - usually, an unstoppable weapon is developed, and dominates the battlefield, until someone comes up with an appropriate counter to it. Once someone develops a counter, that weapon becomes effective only under very specific circumstances, and is no longer a war winner.

 

Who is there to say that there is no counter to virus bombs and/or nuclear weapons in M31? As we can see from the fate of Tallarn, even though the planet was virus bombed, it did not destroy all of its population due to protective measures. Same goes for the Astartes on Istvaan III. And if the virus bombs can be countered, or at least defended against with proper preparations, who is to say that in the next 28,000 years, someone did not come up with a way to neutralize the danger presented by the nuclear bombs and even lance strikes?

 

Keep in mind, we are not talking backwater civilizations with no resources and no technological knowledge. We are talking about the Warmaster and his allies, who have access to the best equipment in the Imperium, who know everything their loyalist counterparts know about warfare, capabilities of weapons, etc. We are talking about the people who have access to the most advanced machinery thanks to allies in the Mechanicus, and who would not hesitate to use it to create the best fortifications they can under the time constraints.

 

I would presume that even though Ferrus might have acted imprudently, he would have been aware of all of the above facts, or at least of the fact that his opponent would have prepared the fortress in such a way that traditional bombardment would have been highly ineffective. Ultimately (and I know we are discussing fictional characters here, so anything goes really), Ferrus did what he could with the assets he had, and while he made some rather inexcusable mistakes even with the information he could be expected to possess (i.e. knowing he would get reinforcements and still attacking - granted, the reinforcements were traitors, but he could not have been expected to know that), he attacked knowing that Horus almost certainly made himself immune to orbital bombardment and virus bombing. It would have been extremely idiotic for Horus not to do so, and to place the fate of his entire rebellion on a chance that Ferrus would be in charge, and that he would act exactly as predicted. Everywhere else, Horus used backup plans and safeguards... so why not prepare for things going wrong here?

[c-wrex]

:) ;) Yeah I like how this has gone! Stimulating discussion and laughs for me!

 

KHK I was referring to the damage wrought on the legion during

Bequa Kynska's demon fuelled musical perforemance on Fulgrim's flagship and several higher officers and their honor squads suffered mutations and deformities to their heads/mouths, some of them to the point of being unable to close their mouths

. Also, after checking Fulgrim again, it states that the bombardment lasts for "long minutes", so I would imagine some time between ten and thirty minutes worth of bombarment.

 

Ah, well this has been fun, gents. Anybody else wanna start a primarch hate thread ;)