Ferrus Manus=lame?

[BrotherZaah]

Alpha Legion: They're in it for themselves.

 

 

No we're not! For the Emperor. Now and Always.

[Phoebus]

Lord Russ,

 

There's hot-headed, and then there's silly. No offense! :lol:

 

Cheers,

P.

[shamen]

i think ferrus manus was really made out to be a fall guy, not only did he do what he thought was right, but would of been alive and kicking were it not for the demon inside fulgrims head taking over at the last minute. what you have to realise is that after fulgrim tried to win over ferrus to the cause of horus, not only was ferrus slightly cheesed off by fulgrim's words, he had just had most of his fleet crippled right under his nose, then to top it all off dorn tells him that he has to go and give his brothers a good kicking for dad.

 

now to istavaan 5, ask yourselves this if you had just been insulted by your closed brother, and that brother also insulted the rest of your family, would you want to sit back and take pot shots with you big guns, or go down in person and put some butt to shoe leather. cos looking at from a completely neutral point of view. ferrus did what any brother would do, go do and kick some sense in to his brothers for being rebellious.

 

now lastly the fight with fulgrim which so many people seem to feel was one of his big mistakes, looking at everything written fulgrim was more cunning and quicker than ferrus, but ferrus had the advantage of being stronger and having more endurance, and dont forget both primarchs were fighting with weapons they were not familiar yet fought to a stalemate up to the point when fulgrim saw how wounded ferrus was and realised what he had done was wrong. ferrus could of survived with corax and vulcan if it werent for the demon in fulgrims head taking over and delivering the coup de grace. and for those who want to confirm it read page 485 onwards, as i just have while writing this to make sure my facts are right.

 

ferrus wasnt lame or stupid, yes he made mistakes as did most of the loyal primarchs and there legions. but he was doing what he felt was needed at the time, and died believing he had done the right thing.

 

and on a final note: its funny how everyone has there own take on what went wrong, or what could of been done better. yet no one yet has actually read fulgrim and said "fulgrim you muppet throw the bloody talking sword away, and use your common sense." lol

[Phoebus]

Sorry, but you simply can't attribute Ferrus' actions to simply being hot-headed. Not when the whole situation doesn't make sense to begin with--like a few survivors being able to make it out of there. How? With Stormbirds or Thunderhawks? What did they do? Fly for years at a time through real-space until they got to another system? Or did they have starships waiting for them, ones that the Iron Warriors & co. simply decided it wasn't worth their time to shoot at? And if there WERE starships, all the loyalists in them decided to just sit there and do nothing while the revealed traitors massacred their comrades?

 

As for Fulgrim... that's the WHOLE POINT of being under the psychic control of a daemon weapon. :devil:

 

You're not supposed to be able to make this determination of "Wow, I'm being mentally affected by an alien intelligence!" Hence why he's so shocked and horrified at what he's done the second Ferrus is about to die--he wasn't able to even comprehend the consequences of what he was doing until after the Daemon allowed him to. :devil:

 

Cheers,

P.

[Starblayde]

and on a final note: its funny how everyone has there own take on what went wrong, or what could of been done better. yet no one yet has actually read fulgrim and said "fulgrim you muppet throw the bloody talking sword away, and use your common sense." lol

Except on the tvtropes.org article about the Horus Heresy... hehe, where every other trope seems to reference that idea.

[Donkey Kong]

and on a final note: its funny how everyone has there own take on what went wrong, or what could of been done better. yet no one yet has actually read fulgrim and said "fulgrim you muppet throw the bloody talking sword away, and use your common sense." lol

 

Because this thread is about Ferrus and not Fulgrim. I loved the novel, I love the Primarch and I love his legion before and after the Heresy, but this is about Ferrus' mistakes. In the end, the OP has yet to address any of the points made and instead insists that Ferrus and his fleet could have bombarded Isstvan V to hell and back even though munitions and defenses aren't even confirmed.

 

I'm still set on believing that Ferrus made the best with what he had at the time and what he expected. He achieved his own goals and couldn't steamroll the fortress because his plans involving seven legions got shot down to three understrength legions getting caught in a vice between eight enemy legions, four of which caught them with their pants down.

[Phoebus]

Ferrus Manus most certainly did not achieve his own goals. Before dying, he saw his Morlocks, his Veterans, cut to pieces. He saw the Salamanders and Ravenguard annihilated.

 

The only munitions that aren't "confirmed" are virus bombs. The weaponry of the actual starships in question, as in lance arrays, bombardment cannons, etc., are most certainly confirmed. If Ferrus Manus had simply counted on having seven Legions again four Traitor Legions, then he was simply an incompetent, amateur commander--something we know the Primarchs weren't.

 

And those oh, so-awesome fortifications?

 

They are comprised of walls, as tall as "thirty metres in places, with slopes of gritty sand banked against" them. The Emperor's Children use Mechanicum earthmovers to shift "the sand from before the walls of the fortress" and use it "to form a vast network of earthworks, trenches, bunkers and redoubts" along its front. In "Galaxy in Flames", Horus destroyed a 30K-era, fortifications and all, using his starship weaponry (this is after the virus bombs and firestorm, mind you). And here we're supposed to believe that a bunch of trenches in front of the 30-meter wall of a ruined, ancient fortress will do the trick? Seriously?

 

But you know what? I take it all back! When I went back to "Fulgrim" to reference the above quotes, I re-read the battle description. Sure enough, Ferrus Manus DOES order an orbital bombardment.

 

"... the entire length of the Warmaster's forces was engulfed in a searing, roaring bombardment. For long minutes, the forces of the Emperor pounded the Urgall from orbit, a firestorm of unimaginable ferocity hammering the surface of Isstvan V with the power of the world's end. ... the Emperor's Children had performed perfectly in creating a network of defences from which to face their former brothers, and the forces of the Warmaster had been well protected."

 

McNeill goes on to tell us that "the black desert burned in the aftermath of the bombardment, and the twisted remains of shattered bunkers, redoubts and collapsed trenches were a grisly testament to [the orbital bombardment's] power."

 

So why did they stop after just a few minutes? Obviously it worked! This hurts my head. I should probably just abstain from this thread, 'cause I just can't reconcile with the author's logic in this case. :devil:

 

Sigh. SIGH!

 

Cheers,

P.

[Donkey Kong]

So, counting reinforcements as battlefield assets even though they may not be there at that exact moment is incompetent. I don't buy it. Known reinforcements are a perfect reason to initiate an attack, there is the knowledge that even if you take a beating, you're going to have another ally coming to help you.

 

Ferrus Manus wanted a beach head. He wanted a place where the other four legions could land relatively safely and support his own troops. With three legions and the Imperial Army he met that goal. His own personal goal, of using the sword he forged for Fulgrim to fight Fulgrim was accomplished and while he did not succeed, he got there and that most definitely counts for something. Hell, he got to use the sword he was saving "just for Fulgrim".

 

Okay, Ferrus initiates a bombardment. His goals are clearly seen to be a ground assault. Whatever affect his bombardments may have, he may not see their value. Alternatively, there could be shelters, clearly they're moving dirt, and they can move quite a bit. Who is saying that they couldn't have constructed shelters? God forbid the Emperor's Children actually put some thought into these defenses. Maybe Ferrus underestimated his enemy, he obviously put a dent there.

 

The Primarchs weren't always the most informed fellows, so I doubt Ferrus wanted to wait much longer before giving Fulgrim a what for.

 

"... the Emperor's Children had performed perfectly in creating a network of defences from which to face their former brothers, and the forces of the Warmaster had been well protected."

 

Also, bunkers! Bunkers which saved the World Eaters on Isstvan III, bunkers which were sealed against a firestorm and virus bombs. Y'know, obviously the people around here know how to make their bunkers. Even if some collapsed, there were many more, and I'm sure some survived the devastation.

 

So, to just use this as an example, even if it is a trench line and a thirty foot wall, the Emperor's Children have clearly created something to be reckoned with.

 

Ferrus could initiated a longer lasting bombardment, but then there's the honor of looking your enemy in the eyes as you kill him. Then there's the knowledge that this fortification is being built upon an already existing and probably sturdy fortification. So, whose to say that the Legions couldn't have waited out the firestorm?

 

Just to throw it another way, supposing Ferrus bombed Isstvan V to hell and back a dozen times over, his fleet is obviously small. When the other four legions arrive, they've already determined their status as traitors, the three Legions would have been destroyed in orbit. Would Ferrus then have been decreed a coward for not attacking the fortress in a ground assault and indecisive?

 

Clearly, Ferrus doesn't have much going for him either way, but he did what he set out to do, the vice blindsided him and he, as the internet would like to say, got owned.

 

Please, give me a solution with some weight that can be used to argue Ferrus' stupidity or lack of tactical sense. Bombardments aside, the issued one, he put a hole in some defenses, if he had gone longer he may have destroyed more, but there's still the issue of probably not taking out all of the traitor Primarchs. Also, there's another issue, I don't exactly recall, but Fulgrim and Angron were on Isstvan V, Morty may have been, but was Horus there?

 

The body dies without the head, but as the Guillotine has demonstrated, the head can react on its own. A poor example, I know, but if Horus wasn't present on Isstvan V, he still had four legions that supported him, five after the incident on Prospero.

 

There's always the ideas about Fulgrim not really contributing to the siege of Terra, playing with civilians and no one can really refute the claim that a bombardment would exterminate everyone. This would leave some Death Guard, World Eaters, Emperor's Children and Sons of Horus still kicking.

 

I'm really just starting to ramble, damn you debate team :cuss .

[Allerka]

Horus was there, he was just deep inside the fortress pretty much chilling, watching the battle outside, and probably cackling evilly with the impending arrival of the second wave, knowing what would happen (and thus probably not really feeling like he needed to directly control the battle from his side, and just let the other primarchs handle it). Fulgrim goes to him in the fortress immediately after the battle to present Ferrus' head (that whole section is just a copy'n'paste from something Alan Merritt wrote for the HH card game, though the original version had Fulgrim presenting Ferrus' head on board Horus' ship, not in the fortress ;) ).

[Tutteman]

Horus was there, he was just deep inside the fortress pretty much chilling, watching the battle outside, and probably cackling evilly with the impending arrival of the second wave, knowing what would happen (and thus probably not really feeling like he needed to directly control the battle from his side, and just let the other primarchs handle it). Fulgrim goes to him in the fortress immediately after the battle to present Ferrus' head (that whole section is just a copy'n'paste from something Alan Merritt wrote for the HH card game, though the original version had Fulgrim presenting Ferrus' head on board Horus' ship, not in the fortress :) ).

 

I believe Horus reacts to the Loyalist landings with a "smile" but I expect he cackled too ;) . Basically the author didn't have much page space and needed to write a big battle scene, to the "smart thing" from Ferrus' point of view would have basically won the battle without a battle, not good fiction. I've said it before though, most of Fulgrim is a good book and i try to avoid criticizing when i could not do better, splinters and planks and all :P :P

 

EDIT: And apparently I should never criticize spelling ;)

[The Broker]

Has nobody entertained the notion that maybe Ferrus was hoping to win back the Traitors to the Emperor's Cause?

 

The Emperor himself tried to swing Horus back to the side of Righteousness at the final battle, and Ferrus Mannus would have known much less about Chaos and it's corrupting influence than the Emperor.

 

It could be seen in the short bombardment and his desire to meet the Renegade Primarchs himself.

[jb85]

Just a few general comments on some of the points made:

 

Firstly on the use of an orbital bombardment to wipe out the traitors. Well that criticism could be levelled at god knows how many battles in 40k. One of the main cases for example would be Horus attacking Terra, why not just Virus bomb it instead? The writer(s) seem to be following contemporary military experience here, where it doesn’t matter how much aerial, naval or artillery superiority you have, ultimately you still need to put boots on the ground to win battles. So if you are judging Ferrus it should be against the scenario he is in and his peers. In that regard I would imagine his actions were consistent with what his brother Primarchs would have down in a similar situation. In addition we have little detail on the disposition of the Traitor fleets or ground based orbital defences. A full scale, long orbital bombardment may not have been practical in the circumstances.

 

On the question of Virus bombs, only the Warmaster and the Emperor had the authority to unleash them. Dorn may or may not have been in a position to authorise their use based on his promotion to acting commander of all Imperial forces. However if Ferrus has received clearance to use them it seems unlikely that he would have ordered a full scale ground assault first. Again I don’t think we have the information available here to criticise Ferrus. And that is before you even start to question the likely effectiveness of the Virus bombs.

 

On his appointment as commander for the attack force, that is Dorn’s call. Out of the 6/7 Primarchs in the force (not 100% on whether Lorgar was meant to be present or not) he does strike me as the logical choice. Alpharius was young (relatively speaking), Konrad was unstable, Corax and Perturabo were too specialised and Vulkan would have struck me as too pragmatic and conservative to lead an attack of this kind. So Ferrus seems the best all rounder of the Primarchs present. Granted of the remaining loyalists, I would have put Guilliman, Jonson, Russ, Dorn and Sanguinius in command ahead of Ferrus.

 

The Diasporex incident, I would view as a positive that Ferrus was able to swallow his pride and ask for Fulgrim’s help to end the threat. There are several other Primarchs that I believe would not have been able to bring themselves to a similar action.

 

Overall the only thing I would criticise Ferrus for was the pursuit of Fulgrim after the initial assault. The logical and prudent decision would have been to withdraw with Corax and Vulkan and let the other legions take the fight to the traitors. But ultimately the trap Horus had set made that mistake a moot point.

[Starblayde]

<much truth snipped>

 

Overall the only thing I would criticise Ferrus for was the pursuit of Fulgrim after the initial assault. The logical and prudent decision would have been to withdraw with Corax and Vulkan and let the other legions take the fight to the traitors. But ultimately the trap Horus had set made that mistake a moot point.

Both Corax and Vulkan suggested that their legions withdraw, with the battle effectively won, so the arriving legions could win their honour and destroy the last remaining resistance. Fulgrim's personal challenge - which was effectively standing on the walls and waving, saying 'Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough, my brother,'. Noble and intelligent as they are, every single Primarch has been proved to be all-too-human one time or another, and with a destiny that would either finish in death at Fulgrim's hands or (presumed) death under the guns of traitorous legions, then the Dying Moment of Awesome wins out for sheer drama purposes every day of the week and twice on sundays.

[jb85]

<much truth snipped>

 

Overall the only thing I would criticise Ferrus for was the pursuit of Fulgrim after the initial assault. The logical and prudent decision would have been to withdraw with Corax and Vulkan and let the other legions take the fight to the traitors. But ultimately the trap Horus had set made that mistake a moot point.

Both Corax and Vulkan suggested that their legions withdraw, with the battle effectively won, so the arriving legions could win their honour and destroy the last remaining resistance. Fulgrim's personal challenge - which was effectively standing on the walls and waving, saying 'Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough, my brother,'. Noble and intelligent as they are, every single Primarch has been proved to be all-too-human one time or another, and with a destiny that would either finish in death at Fulgrim's hands or (presumed) death under the guns of traitorous legions, then the Dying Moment of Awesome wins out for sheer drama purposes every day of the week and twice on sundays.

 

Granted personal pride would have Ferrus accept the challenge and it does make for a good story :P However leading the Iron Hands into the middle of the enemy forces to take on Fulgrim was foolhardy, particulary given the Iron Hands weren't even at full Legion strength. Even if the plan had went well and the four supporting Legions hadn't turned, Ferrus and the Iron Hands would likely have been isolated and wiped out regardless.

[pingo]

<much truth snipped>

 

Overall the only thing I would criticise Ferrus for was the pursuit of Fulgrim after the initial assault. The logical and prudent decision would have been to withdraw with Corax and Vulkan and let the other legions take the fight to the traitors. But ultimately the trap Horus had set made that mistake a moot point.

Both Corax and Vulkan suggested that their legions withdraw, with the battle effectively won, so the arriving legions could win their honour and destroy the last remaining resistance. Fulgrim's personal challenge - which was effectively standing on the walls and waving, saying 'Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough, my brother,'. Noble and intelligent as they are, every single Primarch has been proved to be all-too-human one time or another, and with a destiny that would either finish in death at Fulgrim's hands or (presumed) death under the guns of traitorous legions, then the Dying Moment of Awesome wins out for sheer drama purposes every day of the week and twice on sundays.

 

Granted personal pride would have Ferrus accept the challenge and it does make for a good story :) However leading the Iron Hands into the middle of the enemy forces to take on Fulgrim was foolhardy, particulary given the Iron Hands weren't even at full Legion strength. Even if the plan had went well and the four supporting Legions hadn't turned, Ferrus and the Iron Hands would likely have been isolated and wiped out regardless.

 

It was 40,000 vs 30,000 in the loyalists' favour wasn't it? Plus four other legions on the way. Sounds like enough forces to me. Ferrus was only trying to establish a beachhead, not wipe the traitors out.

 

EDIT: spillung

[Piousservant]

The short answer is that it wasn't Ferrus Manus' fault as he was driven to stop the bombardment and attack on the ground due to the fell sorcery of "narrative imperative"...

[Phoebus]

Exactly.

[jb85]

<much truth snipped>

 

Overall the only thing I would criticise Ferrus for was the pursuit of Fulgrim after the initial assault. The logical and prudent decision would have been to withdraw with Corax and Vulkan and let the other legions take the fight to the traitors. But ultimately the trap Horus had set made that mistake a moot point.

Both Corax and Vulkan suggested that their legions withdraw, with the battle effectively won, so the arriving legions could win their honour and destroy the last remaining resistance. Fulgrim's personal challenge - which was effectively standing on the walls and waving, saying 'Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough, my brother,'. Noble and intelligent as they are, every single Primarch has been proved to be all-too-human one time or another, and with a destiny that would either finish in death at Fulgrim's hands or (presumed) death under the guns of traitorous legions, then the Dying Moment of Awesome wins out for sheer drama purposes every day of the week and twice on sundays.

 

Granted personal pride would have Ferrus accept the challenge and it does make for a good story :lol: However leading the Iron Hands into the middle of the enemy forces to take on Fulgrim was foolhardy, particulary given the Iron Hands weren't even at full Legion strength. Even if the plan had went well and the four supporting Legions hadn't turned, Ferrus and the Iron Hands would likely have been isolated and wiped out regardless.

 

It was 40,000 vs 30,000 in the loyalists' favour wasn't it? Plus four other legions on the way. Sounds like enough forces to me. Ferrus was only trying to establish a beachhead, not wipe the traitors out.

 

EDIT: spillung

 

It isn't a criticism of Ferrus wanting to spearhead the main attack. What he did do was take the Iron Hands into the middle of the enemy lines (granted they were retreating) while Corax and Vulkan were rotating their positions with the reinforcing legions who were still assembling at the drop sites. Assuming the reinforcing legions stay loyal and moved up to replace the Salamanders and Raven Guard, there still remains a serious risk that Ferrus would get cut-off and picked off piecemeal as he didn't wait for back-up. Ultimately it wouldn't really matter in that scenario at any rate, worst case Ferrus and the Iron Hand veterans are wiped out but Horus would still be seriously out-numbered and out-gunned.

 

That said if Ferrus had made the prudent decision and fallen back with Corax and Vulkan then he would have at least stood a chance of escaping the trap that had been set for them. That would have been a major boon for the loyalists in the longer term, as the Iron Hands were the only one of the three loyalist legions that hadn't been rendered combat ineffective during the battle (albeit there would have been no more than a handful of the Morlocks left). While he mightn't have been able to make a critical contribution at the Battle for Terra, the Iron Hands would surely have been a far more formidable force during the Heresy and Scouring with Ferrus Manus still at their head.

[Tutteman]

^ This said it is even more likely that he would have been killed anyway and in far less honourable style :devil: Oh and it wouldn't have amde such a good copy. Instead of the betrayed Ferrus takes on his estwhile (understatement of year) brother in a final attempt to hurt Horus, it would have been, while making a tactical withdrawal to allow fresh forces into the fray to carry the attack Ferrus was shot in the face by a random group of heavy weapons troopers he thought were on his side...You tell me which one you'd rather read ;) Of course you're right, it's just that really this discussion isn't about Ferrus, but the author.