Ragnar and Bloodclaws

[Kabuse]

hail again Brothers, after looking at both the Bloodclaw and Ragnar entries it says both 'Insane Brovado' and 'Beserker charge' replace the +1 for charging, so does one replace the other? or do they stack? the way I read it is that Ragnars takes precedence, but this means on a 1 or 2 ragnar scares those pups into missing out on an attack. So is his ego so powerful as to crush the will of those Blood claws or am I reading into it wrong?

 

also does a fearless unit automaticly pass Counter-attack tests as its a leadership test?

 

thanks for your time, I await your replies brothers, feel free to call me an idiot :)

[rahl02]

hail again Brothers, after looking at both the Bloodclaw and Ragnar entries it says both 'Insane Brovado' and 'Beserker charge' replace the +1 for charging, so does one replace the other? or do they stack? the way I read it is that Ragnars takes precedence, but this means on a 1 or 2 ragnar scares those pups into missing out on an attack. So is his ego so powerful as to crush the will of those Blood claws or am I reading into it wrong?

 

also does a fearless unit automaticly pass Counter-attack tests as its a leadership test?

 

thanks for your time, I await your replies brothers, feel free to call me an idiot :)

 

 

Yes Ragnar's ability will replace the Blood Claws, and no Fearless only works on moral checks and pinning tests.

[muzzyman1981]

Well Ragnar's ability is kind of a crazy thing now and I used to bring him along with the Claws whenever I can but with the new rules I'm looking at bringing him with Grey Hunters or Wolf Guard. The main reason is because his 1-3 attack addon will help GH or WG alot more than BC's who automatically get 2. Whereas with with GH at the worst you only give them what they had before, but if he's with BCs then you have a chance of dropping the amount of extra attacks.

 

For Blood Claws I would recommend a Wolf Priest since he allows re-rolls on Preferred Enemy (which helps due to their lower WS).

[hmk17]

Fearless covers Morale and Pinning tests alone, not all Generic Leadership tests. p.75

 

The consensus I am finding on the first question is that you get to choose which "Replace Effect" occurs for the +1 bonus, BEFORE the Dice is rolled. So the Bloodclaws either get +2 or the D3 result. Ragnar would only have his D3.

 

Bear in mind that the latter is unofficial.

[SJumppanen]

BCs only get 1 extra attack in counter charge, but how about Ragnar and unit he leads, there is no mention of it in codex, unlike BCs?

[Toasterfree]

BCs only get 1 extra attack in counter charge, but how about Ragnar and unit he leads, there is no mention of it in codex, unlike BCs?

the d3 attacks happens WHEN the unit charges. not on the counter charge.

 

@hmk17

 

it may be unofficial, but you are really cheating the opponent. you should play it right at all times.

 

@muzzy

 

i run my rags with my GH (pretty much all I run now) and he rocks house with them. and the lower WS of BCs only hurts them since they are hit on 3s by most everything. you are still hitting on 4s till WS 9, then you need 5s. the biggest help that the WP is giving due to the re-rolls is the fact of the sheer quantity of the number of attacks.

[Grey Mage]

I agree with Toaster free in that you have to accept the roll, for better or worse. Why are you putting him with BCs anyways?

 

I believe that his ability works on the countercharge, as it did before.... nothings changed in counterattack or the wording of his ability to imply to me that its interactions have changed.

[Toasterfree]

...-he and any unit he joins gains +d3 bonus attacks when they launch an assault instead of the usual +1

 

can someone please quote the USR for counter-charge

[muzzyman1981]

Well he does have incredible agility, and since they don't say specifically one way or the other, like they do for Blood Claws....

[Toasterfree]

yes it does:

...-he and any unit he joins gains +d3 bonus attacks when they launch an assault instead of the usual +1

[Grey Mage]

yes it does:

...-he and any unit he joins gains +d3 bonus attacks when they launch an assault instead of the usual +1

Countercharge:

 

To represent this, when a unit with this rule is assaulted by the enemy it must pass a leadership test. If the test is successful all moedls in the unit get the +1 assault bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn.

 

Emphasis mine of course. Thats the part of Counterattack that allowed our BCs to previously get +2 on a successful LD test, and it worked on Ragnar before aswell. Since BCs mentioned an exemption from this, but his does not I can only assume that nothing has changed here and Ragnar will get his d3 on the counterattack "exactly as if he too had assaulted".

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Agreed GM as, whilst it is specifically listed that BC don't get their bonus Ragnar runs as is.

[Wispy]

I agree with Grey Mage. If they didn't want us using Insane Bravado with counter charge, they would have said so like they did with Berserk Charge.

[Toasterfree]

again though, bravado specifically states its when they LAUNCH, not when they counter attack. counter attack is just a reaction to getting charged, its not the same as charging. they may get the +1 as if, but bravado is a replacement effect just like the BCs.

[rahl02]

yes it does:

...-he and any unit he joins gains +d3 bonus attacks when they launch an assault instead of the usual +1

Countercharge:

 

To represent this, when a unit with this rule is assaulted by the enemy it must pass a leadership test. If the test is successful all moedls in the unit get the +1 assault bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn.

 

Emphasis mine of course. Thats the part of Counterattack that allowed our BCs to previously get +2 on a successful LD test, and it worked on Ragnar before aswell. Since BCs mentioned an exemption from this, but his does not I can only assume that nothing has changed here and Ragnar will get his d3 on the counterattack "exactly as if he too had assaulted".

 

Actually it was the rule for Beserk Charge for our 3rd ED codex that stated that instead of the +1 attack bonus we received a +2 attack bonus.

 

BUT Ragnar's Insane Bravado charge bonus DOES NOT work on the counter-attack, only when he LAUNCHES an assault.

 

The 3rd ed rules for Beserk charge was overpowered making Claws and Ragnar hands down obvious choices. That had to be changed. Heaven forbid GW makes us make tough choices for HQ's and other units. Get with the times and stop trying to reword the rules, when something is as clear as LAUNCHES that means when they assault not counter-attack.

 

 

Sorry if that last sentence sounded harsh but it's irratating when people try to bend obvious rules like that.

[rahl02]

***double post***

[stinkenheim]

i would say that the insane bravado doesn't work with counter attack as it says when ragnar 'launches an assault', and counter attacking isn't launching an assault.

I can however see where those who disagree with me are coming from, and i think if the dispute came up during a game i would suggest we roll for it because it is worded poorly (shock horror i know)

 

with regards to insane bravado over ruling beserk charge, yes it does. potentially you can lose an attack with you bloodclaws, but the question is why put him in bloodclaws. grey hunters or wolf guard are the way to go. you'll find he lasts longer and his squad are more capable of doing damage... plus he wouldn't be hanging around with the newbies would he theyd likely nick his sword when he wasn't looking :lol:

[Wispy]

The "exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn" bit in counter attack is the key.

 

That bit of text is what makes CA a poorly written rule (as leaving it out would have dispelled so many other conflicts and rules debates surrounding the rule), but it makes what's happening pretty clear: The squad counter attacking is also considered to be assaulting as well.

[Valerian]

The "exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn" bit in counter attack is the key.

 

That bit of text is what makes CA a poorly written rule (as leaving it out would have dispelled so many other conflicts and rules debates surrounding the rule), but it makes what's happening pretty clear: The squad counter attacking is also considered to be assaulting as well.

 

 

The exactly as if they too had assaulted does cause some problems (given that some units get "non-standard" bonuses to their attacks when they charge), but what about this part, that hasn't been empasized by anyone so far:

 

the unit get the +1 assault bonus to their attacks

 

This part is extremely clear. It doesn't say "the unit gets a +1 assault bonus to their attacks, unless they would normally get more than +1 due to their own unique unit special rule..."

 

So, units conducting a Counter Attack get + 1 assault bonus to their attacks. They are not, in fact, "launching an assault", so no +2 for Berzerk Charge, and no +d3 for Insane Bravado.

 

 

This is my take on it, but really this issue is definitely in need of a FAQ response. When the Codex: Dark Angels came out GW quickly whipped out a FAQ to respond to all of the issues; I was actually impressed. I would hope that the same would be true for this release, as the questions have been floating around the boards for weeks now.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[muzzyman1981]

So I take it as soon as 5th Ed came out people stopped using the Blood Claws +2? It seems kind of funny that all of a sudden now that the new Codex is out, and specifically denies the Blood Claws the +2 that people have any question about Ragnar's bonus when obviously they would have seen that and therefore put a clarification in the Codex for Ragnar's as well.

 

What alot of people forget is that Ragnar has insane reflexes (the reason why he gets a ++ save when he doesn't have a power field protecting him) and therefore would be getting his normal bonus on the counter-charge and why GW (and more specifically Phil Kelly) did not give the same clarification that is in the Blood Claw's entry.

 

It's as if the model were attacking themselves, therefore since it doesn't deny it, Wolf Lord Ragnar Blackmane would get his attack bonus.

[Valerian]

So I take it as soon as 5th Ed came out people stopped using the Blood Claws +2?

 

Remember, even with the old Codex there was a lot of debate about whether Blood Claws should get +2 Attacks with Counter-Attack. The community more or less settled on the side of the debate that they would, but it was never a for sure thing, and as far as I remember never got an answer in a FAQ.

 

It seems kind of funny that all of a sudden now that the new Codex is out, and specifically denies the Blood Claws the +2 that people have any question about Ragnar's bonus when obviously they would have seen that and therefore put a clarification in the Codex for Ragnar's as well.

 

I wouldn't assume that the failure to clarify in Ragnar's section as intentional; it very easily could have been an oversight (it's not as if there are no other oversights in the new codex). I'm just thankful that he actually remembered to address it in the Blood Claws entry.

 

What alot of people forget is that Ragnar has insane reflexes (the reason why he gets a ++ save when he doesn't have a power field protecting him) and therefore would be getting his normal bonus on the counter-charge.

 

Sure, Ragnar himself is amazingly fast, so perhaps you could justify that he would keep his +d3 attacks for himself on a Counter-Charge; but the real issue here is whether his personal speed would continue grant extra attacks to folks that he is attached to. If Blood Claws aren't fast enough to get extra attacks in a Counter-Attack then why would Ragnar's own agility change this for them?

 

It's as if the model were attacking themselves, therefore since it doesn't deny it, Wolf Lord Ragnar Blackmane would get his attack bonus.

 

You are only quoting the second half of the phrase; the first half says they get +1 attack.

 

V

[stinkenheim]

how about this for a solution while we wait for a definitive answer in an FAQ.

 

ragnars reflexes are so honed and sharp that he will gain the +D3 attacks even on the counter, such is his savagry and speed.

 

his squad however only gain the +1 attack, as whilst ragnar might be quick enough to launch himself at the foe with vigour and fury its unlikely his squad will be able to do the same.

 

its a good middle ground, because if bloodclaws cannot claim additional attacks it stands to reason other squads couldn't. ragnar however is meant to have the sharpest reflexes of all the wolves, and so it can easily be argued that he would be able to gain the bonus attacks. this way its not over powered and your opponents are unlikely to have too much to complain about.

if they do start to complain, roll a dice on a 4+ both ragnar and his squad gain the bonuses from insane bravado anything else they just get +1 attack

[hmk17]

@hmk17

 

it may be unofficial, but you are really cheating the opponent. you should play it right at all times.

 

 

Noting that I said this is the consensus of what I have dug up. Watch your finger pointing.

 

 

Frankly, the subject is pretty much not discussed. More of the topics out there focus on the Counter-attack/Insane Bravado question and Insane Bravado/Wolf Standard interaction.

 

 

As to the counter-attack issue, I agree that Insane Bravado would not grant the D3 during Counter-attack.

 

 

Counter-attack is just a nut roll ability that really could use some errata. The IG codex had people asking questions and the Wolves might drive home the point for an update to the main rule book.

[Grey Mage]

yes it does:

...-he and any unit he joins gains +d3 bonus attacks when they launch an assault instead of the usual +1

Countercharge:

 

To represent this, when a unit with this rule is assaulted by the enemy it must pass a leadership test. If the test is successful all moedls in the unit get the +1 assault bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn.

 

Emphasis mine of course. Thats the part of Counterattack that allowed our BCs to previously get +2 on a successful LD test, and it worked on Ragnar before aswell. Since BCs mentioned an exemption from this, but his does not I can only assume that nothing has changed here and Ragnar will get his d3 on the counterattack "exactly as if he too had assaulted".

 

Actually it was the rule for Beserk Charge for our 3rd ED codex that stated that instead of the +1 attack bonus we received a +2 attack bonus.

 

BUT Ragnar's Insane Bravado charge bonus DOES NOT work on the counter-attack, only when he LAUNCHES an assault.

 

The 3rd ed rules for Beserk charge was overpowered making Claws and Ragnar hands down obvious choices. That had to be changed. Heaven forbid GW makes us make tough choices for HQ's and other units. Get with the times and stop trying to reword the rules, when something is as clear as LAUNCHES that means when they assault not counter-attack.

 

 

Sorry if that last sentence sounded harsh but it's irratating when people try to bend obvious rules like that.

Im not rewording rules. It says its "exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn"

 

On the turn he counterattacks Ragnar gets +1d3, because thats EXACTLY how he would have done it if he too had assaulted that turn. Wich is how the rule is written.

[Toasterfree]

the key word is LAUNCH. did they launch the assualt? NO! so how can he benefit from something that he didnt do. does he count as charging to get the +1? YES. just like BCs only get +1 when they CA. if the BC+ Ragnar (which is a waste) were to LAUNCH the assault then yes they get the d3