How to handle the "Air-Cav" IG armies

[minigun762]

I'm really struggling against the "Air-Cav" Imperial Guard armies right now.

 

For those who don't know, the basic idea is using alot of Valkyries and Vendettas loaded up with Meltagun Vet Squads. Other support choices are variable but Leman Russes, Sentinels, Banewolves and Medusa all appear.

 

Valkyries can pack enough anti-infantry firepower to lay waste horde and threaten exposed Marines while the Vendetta packs 3 TL'd LasCannons that will fry any non-Land Raider Marine vehicle without much trouble considering how easy it is to get side armor shots.

 

For any of our heavy stuff like Land Raiders, they drop in Melta Vets, with 3 BS4 Meltaguns, they're atleast as good as Termicide for around the same price, plus they're scoring.

 

And these squads are only about 200-250 points per Skimmer/Squad combo, so its not hard to fit in 3+ in a 1500 point list and still have another 5 pieces of armor on the table with Chimera/Hellhounds/Leman Russ/Artillery.

 

The immediate answer might seem like Obliterators, but with that many LasCannons fireing (more accurately then a Marine can fire too) Obliterators are going to go down fairly quickly, even in 4+ cover.

Our typical response of Meltaguns seems far too short ranged to knock out vehicles that can hang back at 48" and snipe us. Termicide is also almost useless.

AV12 on Front/Sides protects them from alot of weapons and you going into a shooting contest against them with a Predator or Land Raider seems like a losing proposition as well.

 

On paper the best bet is probably Autocannon/Missile Havocks, but those are not very common choices and they suffer against the sheer volume of AP3 death that IG can put out.

 

(Shrug) :cuss I'm not seeing an easy way out of this, anyone else got a plan?

[Night Lord Dred]

Whats wrong with a combi-pred or two? 2 autocannon shots, 2 lascannons, 130 points. Guard wont touch your AV13.

 

EDIT: I know someone is going to talk about outflanking, so I might as well address it.

 

Any heavy support unit is going to get outflanked. However, with predators you can definitely cover flanks by putting them in your corners. They can shoot 48" so range isnt a problem. I often play the preds this way, though it can be hindered by terrain (in which case, you should probably hug that terrain).

[Drudge Dreadnought]

There isn't an easy way out. Valk/Vendetta spam is overpowered, its that simple. Just like with 9 Russ lists, the only way to beat them is to pack so much anti armor (in the case of valks ranged anti light armor) that your list can no longer be considered an all comers one. So yeah, either tailor your list against it and you'll maybe have a fair fight, or just pray to the dice gods. Chaos marines cannot make an all comers list that can really deal with guard, because guard is overpowered.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Agreed with Drudge. Most stuff I can figure out pretty easily, but I just can't see a way to defeat air cav consistently with CSM all-comers.

At 230 pts for a valk with 2 boltertype-pieplates and Vets with 3 meltas, you'll lose an LR and the squad of zerks inside easily. Light transports get TLLC sniped by Vendettas. And we can't catch any of the if the Guard player feels so inclined.

[minigun762]

Whats wrong with a combi-pred or two? 2 autocannon shots, 2 lascannons, 130 points. Guard wont touch your AV13.

 

EDIT: I know someone is going to talk about outflanking, so I might as well address it.

 

Any heavy support unit is going to get outflanked. However, with predators you can definitely cover flanks by putting them in your corners. They can shoot 48" so range isnt a problem. I often play the preds this way, though it can be hindered by terrain (in which case, you should probably hug that terrain).

 

The Combi-Predator is probably one of the better options in all honesty, but I think you'd be lucky to trade 1 Predator for 1 Vend/Valk (depending on terrain, first turn etc). The thing I notice is that while you can use up 3 FOC slots to take 3 Predators, they can fairly reliably field 2x that.

 

There isn't an easy way out. Valk/Vendetta spam is overpowered, its that simple. Just like with 9 Russ lists, the only way to beat them is to pack so much anti armor (in the case of valks ranged anti light armor) that your list can no longer be considered an all comers one. So yeah, either tailor your list against it and you'll maybe have a fair fight, or just pray to the dice gods. Chaos marines cannot make an all comers list that can really deal with guard, because guard is overpowered.

I know exactly where you're coming from, but I don't want to give up on this quite yet.

 

Lets think about what we can do

1) Can we effectively counter it with Termicide?

2) Can we out shoot it with Predators/Defilers/Havocks?

3) Can we get at it with Bikers/Raptors and Meltaguns?

4) Can we know it out with Plasmagun spamming?

5) Can we assault it with winged Daemon Princes?

6) Would it be pure madness to start including heavy weapons in CSM squads?

 

looking at its weaknesses

1) Its AV12, so its tough but not immune to anti-tank

2) With Vendettas, its usually enough to just stun-lock it

3) If you can kill it with the cargo inside, there is a chance to pin them or kill them with the explosion

4) It can only move 6" if you want to fire all 3 weapons (Vendetta)

5) The firepower on a Valkyrie isn't horribly scary, especially if they take the Rocket Pods

6) If they loadup on Skimmers/Vets, then their army should be fairly small (for IG that is).

7) Vets are just expensive Guardsmen when it comes to killing them off.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Lets think about what we can do:

1) We can kill them with termicide as effectively as the next piece of armor. That said, termicide still doesn't counter them due to the armor saturation levels IG can reach. At least not efficiently.

2) I would say no, due to their ability to pick side armor shots.

3) These units are normally good anti tank due to their speed. Valks are faster though. If he's letting you in range to use them its because it was worth the risk for him.

4) Possibly, but then we'd have inefficient weapons VS the regular guardsmen.

5) Not sure. But we really need those princes to be killing their Russes, not chasing the valks around.

6) The chance of any single heavy weapon killing an AV 12 is still very low. So no.

 

The issue isn't just the Valks and vendettas. Its them in the context of the entire list. You can fill up your heavy support with autocannon havocs and combi preds to drop them, but then what deals with all the russes? Its an issue of threat saturation. And lets not forget they can still pack a good deal of infantry in a list. The problem is that the things that counter guardsmen and the things that counter russes are both countered by valks/vendettas. We use close range fire power and CC to deal with infantry, but that relies on transports. As soon as we lose the transports, we are russ fodder. We use a combination of meltas and our various heavy support options to counter the russes, but those are countered by valks with the exception of termicide (which can only do so much). If we load up on units to counter valks, then we don't have enough to deal with either the infantry or the russes.

[satanaka]

There isn't an easy way out. Valk/Vendetta spam is overpowered, its that simple. Just like with 9 Russ lists, the only way to beat them is to pack so much anti armor (in the case of valks ranged anti light armor) that your list can no longer be considered an all comers one. So yeah, either tailor your list against it and you'll maybe have a fair fight, or just pray to the dice gods. Chaos marines cannot make an all comers list that can really deal with guard, because guard is overpowered.

 

No offense, Druge, but I call bull.

 

first off, each Russ costs about 200 pts a piece once you get done with sponsons and what not. That's between 1500 and 1800 pts and includes nothing that can actually hold any objectives. the most you should ever put in a guard army is 3-4, otherwise you are not going to have much for holding objectives.

 

If someone IS dumb enough to bring that list against you, you should be targeting the troops choices from turn one, and even with platoons, they won't have that much to worry you. No troops, you can't hold objectives and armor 14 doesn't mean much in CC, where you hit on the back armor (armor 10 or 11, depending) with melta bombs. DP's do a number on pretty much any armor also, and they usually get there to dole it out.

 

Guard are not overpowered, by any means. In fact, they're pretty much a one trick pony.

 

And this is a mech/ air cav guard player saying that.

 

Now the Valk list has mobility. What it doesn't have is any serious armor. Autocannons are S7, that's 5's to glance, 6's to pen and 2 shots to do it with. and that means you should bring a normal Pred, with Lascannon sponsons. Blastmasters are S8, and a template. Ok good there. Krak missiles are S8 also. Reaper Autocannons are S7, 2 shots with a re-roll. Vindies have a S10 template cannon. Oblits have Plasma Cannons, Lascannons, and Multi - Meltas.

 

Chaos has many options to deal with Valks easily. You just have to find them, and most people include these things in their lists anyways, or they SHOULD BE.

[Rummy]

No imput on the helping side but atleast the Imperial Guard can do what the fluff actually makes you think they can... Be The Hammer of the Imperium and cruch everything under it with sher numbers of units and alot of Armour like it should be ;)!!

 

But don't give up brothers...... They are not unstopable!!! For they are only man and we are gods to them!

Long live the power armoured beasts of chaos!!

[Night Lord Dred]

You can fill up your heavy support with autocannon havocs and combi preds to drop them, but then what deals with all the russes?

 

What deals with them period? Theyre AV14, nothing is getting through that from far away. We have terminators who do a great job of destroying them. We have oblits that can suicide in as well and get rid of them - but at that point, youre leaving only your 4 troops and Prince on the field for 1-2 turns. They are still the key to winning, and getting killed before the cavalry arrives is pointless as well.

[Seahawk]

Chaos marines cannot make an all comers list that can really deal with guard, because guard is overpowered.

I also have to call plop on that as well. Having played against the new IG codex in horde, rolling thunder, and air cav forms (and defeated all handily), it's really not that strong unless the person tools it to the nines and only plays that way. Really, you have to play against it and not get scared at the math beforehand.

 

Also, how many points are we talking here? That will open up more options. As it is, land raiders, predators, havocs, obliterators, and defilers all work well against them in varying degrees. They are only AV12 vehicles that nearly never get cover saves. Land raiders take them down without breaking a sweat (actually, anything with lascannons can do that), but the LR can take the return fire and laugh, where all the other units would get nailed by something. The defiler's battle cannon stands a decent chance to take them down too (provided the hole lands anywhere over the enormous model). Typically though, I've shot them down with squad carried missile launchers and lascannons. Then the piddly squad inside gets shot once and dies or runs away.

 

Another good thing is, with the squads packing meltas, those skimmers are coming for you. So, prepare for close quarters (where CSM excel against IG) and bring a few long range to punish them for not closing the distance.

 

 

Lets think about what we can do

1) Can we effectively counter it with Termicide? Heck no. If you're not sending those tightly packed meltaguns against LR's, there's something wrong.

2) Can we out shoot it with Predators/Defilers/Havocks? Easily.

3) Can we get at it with Bikers/Raptors and Meltaguns? Of course. They are the same speed, after all.

4) Can we know it out with Plasmagun spamming? Possibly, though autocannons would do better from farther away.

5) Can we assault it with winged Daemon Princes? Probably, but why.

6) Would it be pure madness to start including heavy weapons in CSM squads? Never madness! Though there are better places for them, like Havoc squads.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

1) Can we effectively counter it with Termicide? Heck no. If you're not sending those tightly packed meltaguns against LR's, there's something wrong.

2) Can we out shoot it with Predators/Defilers/Havocks? Easily.

3) Can we get at it with Bikers/Raptors and Meltaguns? Of course. They are the same speed, after all.

4) Can we know it out with Plasmagun spamming? Possibly, though autocannons would do better from farther away.

5) Can we assault it with winged Daemon Princes? Probably, but why.

6) Would it be pure madness to start including heavy weapons in CSM squads? Never madness! Though there are better places for them, like Havoc squads.

 

2) No, we can't. A defiler is 150 pts and is only using the reaper when shooting at a vendetta. Thats 150 pts with 2 tl-s7 shots vs 130 with 3 tl-lascannons (both bs 3) the defiler loses that by a mile. Same with a pred. A las pred is ~160 for less average hits, and it'll take them on its side armor and so be at minus armor. Thats worse shooting, worse armor, and worse price. Combi preds lose as well, they are just a bit cheaper about it. AC havocs will do well, but they are battlecannon fodder.

3) Them being the same speed means we CANNOT get them. The opponent starts on the other side of the board remember...

 

 

Now the Valk list has mobility. What it doesn't have is any serious armor. Autocannons are S7, that's 5's to glance, 6's to pen and 2 shots to do it with. and that means you should bring a normal Pred, with Lascannon sponsons. Blastmasters are S8, and a template. Ok good there. Krak missiles are S8 also. Reaper Autocannons are S7, 2 shots with a re-roll. Vindies have a S10 template cannon. Oblits have Plasma Cannons, Lascannons, and Multi - Meltas.

 

As it is, land raiders, predators, havocs, obliterators, and defilers all work well against them in varying degrees.

 

You guys are saying its not overpowered, and then you list a bunch of units that supposedly beat this. The problem is these units do NOT actually beat this. Point for point, vendettas beat any of our heavy support except havocs. But those are battlecannon fodder.

 

 

The problem is that the units CSM have that are good are generally countered by guard units. DPs, termicide, berserkers, plague marines and oblits are our good units. But combinations of these loose to air cav. We can swap for units that are decent against air cav, but then we suffer too greatly in other match ups. We'll be able to handle the air cav but it will no longer be an allcomers list. This is exactly what i said in my first post.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Again, Dudge is right on the money here.

 

Say at 1750 you run into this:

 

CCS, Astropath, 3 Meltas, Flamer

Marbo

10 Veterans, 3 Flamer

10 Veterans, 3 Flamer

10 Veterans, 3 Melta

10 Veterans, 3 Melta

10 Veterans, 3 Melta

2 Vendettas

2 Vendettas

2 Valkyries, Multiple Rocket Pods

Manticore

Manticore

 

Tha's 1750 dead on.

Vets and Manticores will kill heavy armor or a Rhino/thing, Vendettas will pop a Rhino each.

That's all your Rhinos, all your transports gone turn 1.

Any rear shooting unit gets hit by Marbo turn 2 or 3.

3 Flamer Vet squads and 2 pieplate Valks will wipe whole squads when used synergistically.

If he goes 2nd, he's practically gaurenteed 2 outflanking squads of skimmers (right where they're wanted) and will probably get both manticores with the astropath.

 

My 1750 all-comers curls up into a ball and dies against this.

[Vissah]

I played a list with two Vendettas yesterday and I beated the same guy three times yesterday he gave me some good problems.

The problem is that for the first time he was taking out my Oblits in turn one so I did not had any long range Anti Tank anymore, like said before against a VEndetta and some other Lascannons they die pretty fast even with 4+ cover.

I always try and send my unit of Bikers at them and they will kill one if Im lucky or kill one or two tanks but they will get killed.

SO basicly you can try and hurt them as much as you can but still hope they dont shoot all your Rhino's up.

 

The times I played against him the first turn is the crucial one and the second is also a game breaker.

Either he strands me in my deployment or about half the table or he cant touch me (this happened a couple times) and Im in the middle of his deployment zone and he cant stop me fast enough.

 

So just try to get in his line fast and you can rip him apart if he surrounds you (wich is fairly easy with all those flyers) and strands you you will get a hard time.

[Seahawk]

Drudge, have you ever actually played against these lists, or are you just using math and theory? They don't always work. Not everyone plays with DP, termicide, zerks, lagues, and oblits. From that list I only use oblits and never any of the others. There are other units in the codex, and when one learns to use them, they become useful in situations like this.

 

Them being the same speed means we CANNOT get them. The opponent starts on the other side of the board remember...

This makes zero sense. They are coming towards us, and yet bikes cannot catch them? If anything this is a fantastic thing, as the bikes force the valkyries to continuously move fast, thus making them not shoot at all. All that firepower, not a shot. Kinda makes it easy then. Sure they can drop troops, but it gets dangerous.

[Corpse.]

Uh I have to say this is a common list we see around our tables. Most notably this sort of list.

 

3 vendettas

3 griffons

3 valkyries with rocket pods

3 basilisks

Total: 1380

 

Troops are the ones with long range lascannon and flamer/grenade launcher for firing between their own models to hit tanks and not get obscurity for firing past their own units. The flamer for the unit that flees from melee, has their assaultee's be flamed harshly. Or grenade launchers for the similar task of blast if that comes up, or using krak shots while moving away from the enemy. The command squads pack full of 4 meltaguns or 4 flamers inside the valkyries, maybe one unit or two of demo charge special weapons squads inside the vendettas for a hot-drop (whatever that rule is) suicide run.

 

Very nasty 2k list that has something for everything. Griffons cant really hurt the vendettas if they manage a bad scatter on the second roll. Basilisks hammer things out of range of course. Either its those vehicles or chimera spam with lots of heavy weapons teams firing from the hatches of the chimeras to see over the men blocking the chimeras hull so well that it gets obscure saves.

 

 

Very common as in, there are 9 players with similar variants of that list I noted. Some prefer more of one thing or another but thats pretty much it. I faced it before the codex came out in fact! (shhh)

 

 

 

I hate to say it, but they are just another eldar skimmer to me. Vendetta doesn't move much to fire everything and even then immobilize removes one without moving over 6". Aim and shoot, hope you kill it sort of deal. Anyone can kill obliterators before you get a chance to fire them. They stand so very tall though I can understand why you're annoyed. Cant hide them behind rhinos effectively at that point. You can always make them deep strike or arrive in reserve though!

 

All marines come with krak grenades except for thousand sons. The only vehicles they have that make us hit them on 6's are either AV12, or easy to bash in melee (or both). Get aggressive as usual, chaos isnt a vanilla codex. Aggression wins the day IMO no matter the list. Charge forward and hit their core, letting their silly skimmers bounce everywhere. Either you focus on the 30% of points spent on skimmers, or the 70% points sitting on his side of the table. I rather hit the 70% to be honest. Hit them hard and with melee. Multiple-charge their troops with one half of the unit, and hit the vehicle near them with a few krak grenades. So that I don't kill so many of the 10 guardsmen to make them flee before the opponents turn, and get a 'krak' at his vehicles. Or charge 20 of them and be stuck in there hoping to remove enough to be free to charge next assault phase.

 

 

IG are a tough match up for chaos any way you look at it. I say just go in and do your best from turn to turn.

[Prot]

I actually have a very large Steel Legion army, which was pretty horrid for a while... then the current IG codex came out, and I thought... wow this is too powerful.... now I've settled somewhere in between.

 

I don't think they're overpowered, but I do think Chaos has some serious issues with them. I've been hosed in 2-3 turns by Orks, White Scars (and really any variant that allows 'flank').

 

The issue here is that the Valks come out, do their thing, and you can't do anything about it. I do think Valks bring the Autocannon back into play for Chaos. But as far as 'handling' the Valk rush, it is usually a one trick pony.... the problem lies in bearing the brunt of the initial laydown of firepower. Personally, the things Chaos does to defend against this I think are very 'generic' because we don't have any 5th edition tools in our antiquated codex.

 

If it makes you feel any better, it appears so far that 'Nids will be handing it to the IG pretty good. I know it's not a solution.... But every army has its magic bullet lately....except Orks.

 

The IG model described above puts us in a situation where I think mechanised becomes more and more important. And by the time everyone is playing mech Chaos (if you aren't already), Nids will come out and have you tip toeing around in your deployment zone.

 

It's quite a meta game we face. Tough choices.

[minigun762]

Some of the changes I'm planning on doing will include

 

1) Potential removal of Predators/Vindicators for Defilers to get stronger side armor.

2) Potential removal of all armored heavy slots and replacing them with a combination of Obliterators and Havocks.

3) Replacing the Terminators Heavy Flamer with Reaper ACs for added anti-tank at range.

4) More Rhino mounted troop squads for target saturation.

5) Potential replacement of Daemon Princes with Lords/Sorcerers hiding in Rhinos

 

Aggression wins the day IMO no matter the list.

I think Corpse is onto something. IG is going to want to play a standoff game for the most part. They hope to sacrifice half their army to slow down all of yours and pound you down at range.

With luck, ramming our fist down their throat will steal the initative away from them and the whole battlefield becomes one big quarmire where they can't shoot anything effectively because its all tied up in HtH combat.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Drudge, have you ever actually played against these lists, or are you just using math and theory? They don't always work. Not everyone plays with DP, termicide, zerks, lagues, and oblits. From that list I only use oblits and never any of the others. There are other units in the codex, and when one learns to use them, they become useful in situations like this.

 

There is a guy at my local LGS who plays this sort of list. He doesn't have the best version of it, and he isn't the best player though. I have both won and lost to him, but each time i've lost its been because of mistakes he's made.

 

It is true that not everyone plays with those unit combinations. Plenty of people play inferior armies. But that does not change that this is our best list combination. As i said before, we can use other units in the codex that allow us to deal with air cav. But then we are no longer a proper all-comers list. Take your list that handles air cav so well and then go beat nob bikers, vulkan, landraider rush, or even lash/plagues/oblits. You won't, all else being equal.

 

This makes zero sense. They are coming towards us, and yet bikes cannot catch them? If anything this is a fantastic thing, as the bikes force the valkyries to continuously move fast, thus making them not shoot at all. All that firepower, not a shot. Kinda makes it easy then. Sure they can drop troops, but it gets dangerous.

 

Why is a unit with a 48" range coming towards you? And bikes are an easy target for the rest of the army.

[Spacefrisian]

Don't know if someone else has thought about it but let the Valkerie spam player go first (if you can choose) and put youre army in reserve. This greatly disrupts their tactics and most of the time they don't know what to do with the situation.

[Corpse.]

They can easily sit in their deployment zone and not move until you arrive Spacefrisian. It does not disrupt anything at all, rather they would love to see you come on from your table edge. The further you are from them the better they perform.

[minigun762]

Don't know if someone else has thought about it but let the Valkerie spam player go first (if you can choose) and put youre army in reserve. This greatly disrupts their tactics and most of the time they don't know what to do with the situation.

 

Loyalists might have that option using a Drop Pod army.

Pod in close, fry a squad and hopefully get stuck in.

Plus they have MM or dual Missile Speeders to go skimmer hunting with.

 

Chaos only has 2 deployment options, walking and mechanized. Coupled with a general lack of amazing fast attack choices and we're stuck relying on a substantial fire base to provide cover as we move up the board.

[deepstrike]

It's quite a meta game we face. Tough choices.

Its why I love this game. Better know your army and what it can do, every part, every unit, every weapon.

Something to also think of is "Do I consider every weapon available to me in my army list or do I put fluff based boundaries on myself, and if so why?" I dont like oblits and run a world eaters army thats my decision. So when I face armies that negate my advantages then I probably lose a straight up fight and have to do things to win like kill something then run and hide or go after stragglers and hope for good deviation rolls on long range ordnance. I use combo preds, I use land raiders I use defiler and I use CSM squad with lascannon so I can kill from range but in the end its berzerkers that make or break my play style.

[satanaka]

Again, Dudge is right on the money here.

 

Say at 1750 you run into this:

 

CCS, Astropath, 3 Meltas, Flamer

Marbo

10 Veterans, 3 Flamer

10 Veterans, 3 Flamer

10 Veterans, 3 Melta

10 Veterans, 3 Melta

10 Veterans, 3 Melta

2 Vendettas

2 Vendettas

2 Valkyries, Multiple Rocket Pods

Manticore

Manticore

 

Tha's 1750 dead on.

Vets and Manticores will kill heavy armor or a Rhino/thing, Vendettas will pop a Rhino each.

That's all your Rhinos, all your transports gone turn 1.

Any rear shooting unit gets hit by Marbo turn 2 or 3.

3 Flamer Vet squads and 2 pieplate Valks will wipe whole squads when used synergistically.

If he goes 2nd, he's practically gaurenteed 2 outflanking squads of skimmers (right where they're wanted) and will probably get both manticores with the astropath.

 

My 1750 all-comers curls up into a ball and dies against this.

 

First off, I never met ANY guard player in my area, either at my local store or our battle bunker, that actually fields Marbo, Astropaths, or Manticores, especially in a 1750 game, much less a 2K one, and I live in Chicago, so that is A LOT of guard players.

 

Also, no one's dumb enough around here to run THAT many vets. You get better bang for the buck using platoons.

 

Second, Drudge is not right, in fact he's way off base, especially since the Vendetta/Valkyrie is a skimmer, the same as Eldar Wave Serpents, and WS can carry something far deadlier than silly little guardsmen with flashlights. (Harlequins, anyone?)

 

So is Drudge saying that a WS/Harley list is unbeatable with an all comers list? I call bull on that one too, because I've pounded Harley lists into the ground with an all comers list on a regular basis. Due to the lack of Island hopping anymore, you WANT them to get close. If they are dumb enough to charge you, they'll get stuck off in the middle of nowhere without cover and get shot to hell the next turn.

 

I field FAR, FAR more multilasers in my mech list than you have in your list and I still have issues with doling out enough damage, before Chaos armies are in my face. I spit out the equivalent of 8 templates a turn and around 54 shots a turn, just from vehicles. You can not tell me in ANY form that the list you cited is more potent than my mech list, as I have seen the proof for myself, repeatedly.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Straw man much Satanaka?

[satanaka]

Uh I have to say this is a common list we see around our tables. Most notably this sort of list.

 

3 vendettas

3 griffons

3 valkyries with rocket pods

3 basilisks

Total: 1380

 

Troops are the ones with long range lascannon and flamer/grenade launcher for firing between their own models to hit tanks and not get obscurity for firing past their own units. The flamer for the unit that flees from melee, has their assaultee's be flamed harshly. Or grenade launchers for the similar task of blast if that comes up, or using krak shots while moving away from the enemy. The command squads pack full of 4 meltaguns or 4 flamers inside the valkyries, maybe one unit or two of demo charge special weapons squads inside the vendettas for a hot-drop (whatever that rule is) suicide run.

 

Very nasty 2k list that has something for everything. Griffons cant really hurt the vendettas if they manage a bad scatter on the second roll. Basilisks hammer things out of range of course. Either its those vehicles or chimera spam with lots of heavy weapons teams firing from the hatches of the chimeras to see over the men blocking the chimeras hull so well that it gets obscure saves.

 

 

Very common as in, there are 9 players with similar variants of that list I noted. Some prefer more of one thing or another but thats pretty much it. I faced it before the codex came out in fact! (shhh)

 

 

 

I hate to say it, but they are just another eldar skimmer to me. Vendetta doesn't move much to fire everything and even then immobilize removes one without moving over 6". Aim and shoot, hope you kill it sort of deal. Anyone can kill obliterators before you get a chance to fire them. They stand so very tall though I can understand why you're annoyed. Cant hide them behind rhinos effectively at that point. You can always make them deep strike or arrive in reserve though!

 

All marines come with krak grenades except for thousand sons. The only vehicles they have that make us hit them on 6's are either AV12, or easy to bash in melee (or both). Get aggressive as usual, chaos isnt a vanilla codex. Aggression wins the day IMO no matter the list. Charge forward and hit their core, letting their silly skimmers bounce everywhere. Either you focus on the 30% of points spent on skimmers, or the 70% points sitting on his side of the table. I rather hit the 70% to be honest. Hit them hard and with melee. Multiple-charge their troops with one half of the unit, and hit the vehicle near them with a few krak grenades. So that I don't kill so many of the 10 guardsmen to make them flee before the opponents turn, and get a 'krak' at his vehicles. Or charge 20 of them and be stuck in there hoping to remove enough to be free to charge next assault phase.

 

 

IG are a tough match up for chaos any way you look at it. I say just go in and do your best from turn to turn.

 

 

Some of the changes I'm planning on doing will include

 

1) Potential removal of Predators/Vindicators for Defilers to get stronger side armor.

2) Potential removal of all armored heavy slots and replacing them with a combination of Obliterators and Havocks.

3) Replacing the Terminators Heavy Flamer with Reaper ACs for added anti-tank at range.

4) More Rhino mounted troop squads for target saturation.

5) Potential replacement of Daemon Princes with Lords/Sorcerers hiding in Rhinos

 

Aggression wins the day IMO no matter the list.

I think Corpse is onto something. IG is going to want to play a standoff game for the most part. They hope to sacrifice half their army to slow down all of yours and pound you down at range.

With luck, ramming our fist down their throat will steal the initative away from them and the whole battlefield becomes one big quarmire where they can't shoot anything effectively because its all tied up in HtH combat.

 

 

Don't know if someone else has thought about it but let the Valkerie spam player go first (if you can choose) and put youre army in reserve. This greatly disrupts their tactics and most of the time they don't know what to do with the situation.

 

 

LOL you 3 get it when it comes to dealing with Guard. TBH, minigun, I wouldn't remove the Preds or DP's just yet. I think if you only do #'s 3 and 4 on your list, you might find the rest will work in concert with those two changes magnificently.

 

 

 

Now my bigger question is: why are people not tailoring their list game to game to deal with that particular army's strengths, especially if you know it didn't work last time you played them? I understand trying to have a "template" to work from, but if you know something isn't going to work, why in the hell are you paying the points for it in the first place????