How to handle the "Air-Cav" IG armies

[satanaka]

Straw man much Satanaka?

 

LOL it might considered one, if you hadn't basically said in a prior post that the valk/ vendetta list couldn't be beaten (your exact words was that it was overpowered), followed up by a similar comment about 9 russ spam.

 

Both are actually highly beatable and with the list you cite as one that could not. The issue isn't what troops, it's what strategy.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

LOL it might considered one, if you hadn't basically said in a prior post that the valk/ vendetta list couldn't be beaten, followed up by a similar comment about 9 russ spam.

 

Yeah, except i never said that. I said it couldn't be beaten without tailoring to the point that you are no longer playing an all-comers/generalist list. So thats a straw man in the first place. So that was your first straw man. But then you write an entire post that is basically irrelevant to the topic.

 

First off, I never met ANY guard player in my area, either at my local store or our battle bunker, that actually fields Marbo, Astropaths, or Manticores, especially in a 1750 game, much less a 2K one, and I live in Chicago, so that is A LOT of guard players.

 

Also, no one's dumb enough around here to run THAT many vets. You get better bang for the buck using platoons.

 

Anecdotal evidence. What people around you play is meaningless. There several chaos players around where i play who's idea of a good army is 6 5 man squads with 1 plasma gun each, no rhinos, footslogging possessed, and lots of points sunk into dreads and footslogging khorne claw terminators. Should i consider them to be authorities on Chaos just because there's a bunch of players like this around where i am? If the list that you quoted is a bad one, you should have no trouble stating why without brining in anecdotal evidence.

 

Second, Drudge is not right, in fact he's way off base, especially since the Vendetta/Valkyrie is a skimmer, the same as Eldar Wave Serpents, and WS can carry something far deadlier than silly little guardsmen with flashlights. (Harlequins, anyone?)

 

So is Drudge saying that a WS/Harley list is unbeatable with an all comers list? I call bull on that one too, because I've pounded Harley lists into the ground with an all comers list on a regular basis. Due to the lack of Island hopping anymore, you WANT them to get close. If they are dumb enough to charge you, they'll get stuck off in the middle of nowhere without cover and get shot to hell the next turn.

 

So i'm way off. You've been saying this for awhile (in response to me saying the list was unbeatable which, once again, i never did). But now you are not even bothering to say WHY i'm not right. Everybody knows that eldar and their units are a completely different situation. The comparison is not valid. Why are you even bringing this up? Harley lists are not imperial guard air cav. The similarities end after the av 12 skimmer part. You know, Tau have AV 12 skimmers too. Lets throw them into this comparison as well. And hey, air cav lits often have russes. And russes have front armor 14. Land raiders also have front armor 14, so obviously air cav and landraider rush are exactly the same thing too. But hey, harley spam and air cav are the same, and air cav and landraider rush are the same, so that means that harley spam = landraiders! Therefore if i can beat Lr rush, i can beat air cav and harley spam with the same list and tactics, right?

 

I field FAR, FAR more multilasers in my mech list than you have in your list and I still have issues with doling out enough damage, before Chaos armies are in my face. I spit out the equivalent of 8 templates a turn and around 54 shots a turn, just from vehicles. You can not tell me in ANY form that the list you cited is more potent than my mech list, as I have seen the proof for myself, repeatedly.

 

You are right, we can't tell you that list is more potent than your mech list, because you haven't bothered to tell us what your mech list is. But then again, why are we even comparing your list to that one in the first place? If the quoted list is a poor example, and you are as knowledgeable about all this as you seem to claim, then you can tell us WHY that list is so bad and provide a better one for the sake of this discussion. But of course, this discussion isn't about any specific list, Iron Chaos Brute was just mentioning it as an aside.

 

Now my bigger question is: why are people not tailoring their list game to game to deal with that particular army's strengths, especially if you know it didn't work last time you played them? I understand trying to have a "template" to work from, but if you know something isn't going to work, why in the hell are you paying the points for it in the first place????

 

Most people consider this borderline cheating as list tailoring kind of defeats the purpose the of game. What's the point in playing if your opponent has just designed their list to beat yours? And if you then tailor yours to beat theirs, you start a cycle of stupidity. Its better to just not have either person list tailor in the first place. Also plenty of people have one set list regardless of who they are playing against for fluff, or even financial, reasons.

 

 

Now, can you please put the straw manning aside and have a real discussion? If the list is bad, tell us why. If i'm wrong somewhere, explain why and be prepared to defend your stance. Less mass quoting followed by vague, unsupported statements.

[the jeske]

Most people consider this borderline cheating as list tailoring kind of defeats the purpose the of game. What's the point in playing if your opponent has just designed their list to beat yours?

+ on the tailoring side there is no other army better then IG. if you want to build an eldar killer , meq or anti ork list , there is no better army then IG [it has always been true what IG had problems in 4th , begining of 5th ed was the all rounder lists] . also beating someone with a list that is tailored makes no sense . If I play a LR rush list against an army that cant kill av14 at all or has minimal chance to do so .

 

 

as the countering goes. putting whole army in to reservers aint very good [specially when IG can manipulate the rolls] . we are a short range list [am speaking about general chaos lists ] , If we get two rhino squads and the IG gets two valkis we suffer more [specially as we dont have to worry only about the skimers , we have to worry about the rest of the IG army] . Solutions are two . Escape in to hth , where valkis cant hurt us[or at least not our troops] and removing the anti tank in to deep strike [here the later showing up of oblits/termicids can sometimes even help as we dont have to hope for going second] .

the assault part is easy . just like with tau even a half strengh squad of csm can beat a squad of guardsman , agresive use of lash means we can well end up in hth turn 1 or 2 with a lot of squads. if units are 7-8 man strong its not unwise to attack two squads of guardsman . higher WS t4 and+3 save will still get us a small victory or draw[that is a good thing as it means our wining squad wont get shot to hell on next IG turn].

For me at least its as If you would play a tau and eldar list at the same time . Doesnt mean that the match up is easy , but IG is still far from being a very bad match up for chaos .

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Jeske, you seem to be talking about IG in general. Were you meaning Air Cav guard specifically? They do not tend to have infantry in the open to go assault, and if they do its really far away. If you did not mean air cav, what are your comments on that specifically?

[Corpse.]

I play horde guard (no conscripts... No heavy weapons about half the time) with heavy chimeras from time to time. The mass of firepower, combined power weapons of combined squads + commisar.. Pretty fun list, my skeletons don't like running so the "Commomancer" keeps them from doing that. They never back out of a fight, even if its pointless. I take 10 krak grenades sometimes among the 51 models of the unit, just for the "what if" factor.

 

I certainly don't lose often but when I do, its not a bad loss more so my mistake, bad roll on my end, or the opponent just had my number with great dice rolls. Its a generic army with generic tactics that I employ almost every game and gets genericly boring. Move 150 models, shoot, wait to take casualties. Move, shoot, maybe get some melee going, take more models out. Continue to watch the bodies pile up and see the enemy thin out and flee. Chase them with my measly I3 and continue to shoot and move. That's all they are really. I would have to say melee armies give it the worst troubles, making me use my chimeras to block what I can to take out whatever I do before the entire enemy gets to me.

 

I went air cav with proxies, and got the models. Its not as fun as I thought it would be. No "eldar" units to make use of it. I had fun blasting forward with 5-ish special weapons squads with 3 demo charges each. That was really cool for a bit. Then sold them to a buddy because it's not my style and I rather do eldar.

 

 

From having IG, I know what IG hates most is an aggressive opponent that ignores terrain except for the idea of how much it will slow him down getting to me. I play aggressive and the same results generate from game to game in a constant among all the games I play against IG with my chaos. Just get there as quick as possible and ruin him up close.

 

IG players who pack allied SoB and GK melee-capable units makes me cringe when I see them. Counters the aggression while being decently shooty for balance.

[Prot]

First off guys, please don't get into personal arguments. This is a pretty good, thought out discussion... let's keep it going!

 

Secondly, as I said, I actually have a large IG army, and I find the truth really is until you see something enough, a lot of the initial reactions are a little... over the top.

 

Personally I don't think the CAV 'army style' is flexible enough to be an all comers type of bargain. In fact I found my best lists just had two of them. And I used massed heavy weapons from infantry for anti-tank, and Heavy Support (Punishers, or Russ') for anti-infantry. The best use of my Valks involved doing some magic bullet work.... That is to say I might feel well in control of a game, but I need a 'magic bullet' for that Landraider full of nasties.... I send the Valk (magic bullet) out and take it down. That was actually the most effective variant I played. It required more flexible tactics on my side, but I found the list was harder.

 

I think Satanaka is right in that Chaos fights IG like it always has... get there... just get there as fast as possible. At the end of the day 5th ed is about holding objectives. This might be the thing no one has talked about with the 'new' IG. Old IG stunk at holding or contesting.... the new Valk IG are very, very potent at holding and contesting. I think that's why, like always, the number one priority is simply getting stuck in with them. And it is doable....

 

Landraiders are still tough no matter what. And at the very minimum you are probably running a few rhinos anyway.... the Landraiders always soak up tons of garbage. And if they manage to attract the Valk attacks, then all you can do is cross your fingers and hope they whiff for one more turn, because really how many turns do you need to get there?

 

Personally I'd still rather face IG than Orks. It's true. And once 'Nids come out, I'm almost certain Nids will also be a bigger problem than IG. Really I see IG requiring us to make some tweaks (Maybe some Autocannons, stress on mobility,) and we can still do it.

 

For an experiment, I'd like to go back to a list where I played fleeting Defilers, Khârn, a D.P. w/Wings and World Eaters in Rhino's. I've played against mech Guard and just demolished them with rear armour attacks.

[minigun762]

Personally I don't think the CAV 'army style' is flexible enough to be an all comers type of bargain. In fact I found my best lists just had two of them. And I used massed heavy weapons from infantry for anti-tank, and Heavy Support (Punishers, or Russ') for anti-infantry.

 

I think you are correct, that having a 2-3 of them supported by a more "normal" IG army of tanks, transports and infantry would probably be a better all-comers list.

 

The Air-Cav concept is very appealing to alot of players because its (in some ways) very simple and relies on overpowered choices so there isn't alot of thought that goes into it. It feels alot like the Ork Nob Bikers of doom or Land Raider Rushing lists or other one trick ponies. All of those lists rely on the fact that they're incredibly hard to beat with a balanced list because they overwhelm your ability to deal with a particular type of target by spamming the overpowered choices in their respective codex.

So we can tailor our armies to beat it, but as Drudge has pointed out, we're no longer playing an all-comers list, or atleast not the same all-comers list we were before.

 

Sidenote: I am firmly in the camp that says the Vendetta is overpowered. It brings more firepower, more mobility and transport capabilities for a cheaper price tag then a Predator or Obliterators with equivalent durability. I really like the idea of it, but it should have been something more like 2 normal Lascannons at that price or bump the price up to atleast 160+ points.

[the jeske]

If you did not mean air cav, what are your comments on that specifically?

well after terminators and oblits go down they do have infantry on table [the vets] . the deep striking is [for me] the only way to deal with both IGAC and normal IG lists [specially as offten IG list offten run one or two valk anyway]. as said before the match up is not easy and it is hard to get more then a mirror victory out of it [because for first two turn we more or less get shot up bad] . am not saying one has to assault , but that being in combat makes the loses smaller . sometimes one has to go down in cover and wait for those valks being poped [or hope that your opponent disembarks to vets to kill a DP standing next to it and then charge] . game playwise for me , it is a game against a tau and eldar list at the same time . this means that our DPs will die and that our transports will get blown up , that pms are more hurt here then normal csm [becaues of the las canons and vets shoting at them]etc .

But at the same time , those valks are not falcons . they do die when shot at . the ig troops [vets or not] even their hqs die to our troops even when they are hurt [even 3-4 csm on the charge have a chance to break a unit of vets]. that is why it is good to use your units in pairs . you pop a rhino/dp with vets /valk say hello to the DP standing next to it . you burn the DP[and out of the many armies out there IG is one of those who doesnt care what type of DP yours using] your troops get charged or double taped .

 

huge cover , assault when ever it is possible , sometimes go to the ground in turns 1-2. it all depends how turn 1-2 look like. how many rhinos were poped , are DPS dead [4d6" or 2x2d6" closer to your units offten means a charge] , did termicid or oblits drop etc. I would say the match ups requiers a "water" style of play.

 

Personally I don't think the CAV 'army style' is flexible enough to be an all comers type of bargain.

it doesnt have to be. its a very good anti meq army when most armies are meq and it does ok against orks/ig lists . it has a nicve 50/50 chance of wining against eldar . non meq list dont have to be balanaced . eldar circus players didnt care that nids were one of their worse match ups , they still played their list and it was seen as top tier.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Personally I don't think the CAV 'army style' is flexible enough to be an all comers type of bargain. In fact I found my best lists just had two of them. And I used massed heavy weapons from infantry for anti-tank, and Heavy Support (Punishers, or Russ') for anti-infantry.

 

I think you are correct, that having a 2-3 of them supported by a more "normal" IG army of tanks, transports and infantry would probably be a better all-comers list.

 

The Air-Cav concept is very appealing to alot of players because its (in some ways) very simple and relies on overpowered choices so there isn't alot of thought that goes into it. It feels alot like the Ork Nob Bikers of doom or Land Raider Rushing lists or other one trick ponies. All of those lists rely on the fact that they're incredibly hard to beat with a balanced list because they overwhelm your ability to deal with a particular type of target by spamming the overpowered choices in their respective codex.

So we can tailor our armies to beat it, but as Drudge has pointed out, we're no longer playing an all-comers list, or atleast not the same all-comers list we were before.

 

Sidenote: I am firmly in the camp that says the Vendetta is overpowered. It brings more firepower, more mobility and transport capabilities for a cheaper price tag then a Predator or Obliterators with equivalent durability. I really like the idea of it, but it should have been something more like 2 normal Lascannons at that price or bump the price up to atleast 160+ points.

 

Agreed. The reason we can't compete with it with an all-comers list is that it isn't one either.

[Tfcdogbert]

Id personally consider the solution to this to lie in raptors, cheap ones with perhaps mark of Nurgle and 2 meltaguns, 2 squads (3 is ideal) of 8 or so hop up the table with some cover and try to get in close, nothing IG has can touch them in CC and they toast tanks very well as a rule, counter their mobility with your own, or perhaps suicide bikers (never used them so cant give a real report), when i play my raptors often cover hop (and indeed it the only part of my army that friggin works).

 

Other way is target saturation but that requires extreme list tailoring, (2 daemon princes, mark of tzeench and bolt, 3 preds with autocannons, 2 land raiders with terminators) give them way too many targets to shoot at and make him panic, although taht is an expensive tactic and require serious minmaxing.

[the jeske]

well 2-3 valkis have are mobile then 5 raptors . ion does nothing against most weapons IG will use against them [las , melta guns, plasma guns or autocanons] . there is also the problem of valks having freaking tall bases , it is really really hard to hide behind terrain without entering it[and then do dangerous terrain test for being jump infantry]

[Talisac]

it is really really hard to hide behind terrain without entering it[and then do dangerous terrain test for being jump infantry]

You could always land an inch or two outside the terrain in your movement phase, then use your shooting phase to run the last inch or two into the terrain. Of course, that's only if you're too far away to shoot.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

it is really really hard to hide behind terrain without entering it[and then do dangerous terrain test for being jump infantry]

You could always land an inch or two outside the terrain in your movement phase, then use your shooting phase to run the last inch or two into the terrain. Of course, that's only if you're too far away to shoot.

 

Then you still have to test next turn when you jump out.

[Talisac]

True, I forgot you test on the way out too. Still, it's one less test and you get the option to walk out of the terrain, should the enemy be within range.

[minigun762]

It might be a case where the 3 Bikers 2 Meltaguns might be useful. Still a fairly cheap squad.

 

Still, I wonder if either of these squads are really needed when the standard CSM loadout is dual Meltaguns in a Rhino. You're trading inherent mobility (Bikes/Jump Packs) for scoring purposes and I think its worth it.

[Corpse.]

If you can manage to surround the small flier base that they measure the 2" disembarking distance from fairly closely, if you kill the transport the guys die inside too. But, since they are normally guardsmen its best to probably just tie up with them in melee combat after the craft perishes.

[minigun762]

Being as most people already use Terminators of some variety, I think one of the easiest things to add is replacing the Heavy Flamer with the Reaper Autocannon.

 

The common logic before was that the Heavy Flamer was the no-brainer choice, at 1/5th the price and murdering hordes, it was a great buy.

 

However, as more and more armies go mechanized, I believe that the Reaper is becoming a valid alternative.

 

Autocannons are the best raged non-Melta light armor killer that Marines have access to, infact here are the numbers for AV10-12.

vs AV10 = 1.18 glancing or penetrating shots

vs AV11 = 0.89 glancing or penetrating shots

vs AV12 = 0.59 glancing or penetrating shots

so against rear armor (AV10) and Rhinos (AV11) you're quite likely to get a damage result each turn you fire it.

[Warp Angel]

Valkyries and Vendettas have two basic weaknesses that can be exploited.

 

Weakness 1) Rear AV 10

 

Weakness 2) Have to move 6 or less" to have appreciable firepower.

 

Now, if your only weapon is shooting, it's hard to get the rear AV 10 shot, so you're stuck with AV12, which is problematic. But if you combine that with weakness #2, all you have to do is catch it to kill it.

 

I get poo poohed on a fairly regular basis for suggesting chaos bikes are a good unit, but this is EXACTLY the kind of situation that you want/need them. 2 melta guns, good close combat, and the speed to chase down the enemy.

 

Even a handfull of bikers has the potential to completely wreck a whole SQUADRON of Valkyries or Vendettas in one turn, especially when led by a lord on a bike.

 

Each biker with basic attacks, on the charge against a 6" or slower moving skimmer will hit 1/2, glance 1/6, meaning you need 12 attacks (four bikes) to average a glancing hit.

With Krak grenades, you end up with hit 1/2 + glance 1/6 + pen 1/3, meaning you need four bikes to average a glancing or penetrating hit.

A power fist hits 1/2 + glances 1/6 + 2/3 pen, providing you with slightly more than an average glance or pen for each champion.

 

Throw in what a lord can do and a 5 man squad with a champion, led by a Lord is going to average two glancing or penetrating hits for the squad, plus what the lord does. Squadron rules says that hits are allocated across the squadron, so that means that you should be able to at least shake, and possibly destroy more than one vehicle in the assault phase.

 

Oh, and you've probably been able to damage or destroy one in shooting ahead of time.

 

When those vets disembark, there's a fair chance they're pinned, assuming that your bikes have left them with any room for safe disembarking after the vehicle is wrecked. Good chance they die in place. If they do manage to get out alive, they won't be for long. They can't handle the bikes in assault. Hitting on 4s and wounding on 6s with saves on a 3+.... It means 36 attacks average to inflict an unsaved wound.

[Corpse.]

One small miss there warp angel.

Valkyries with rocket pods are not ord, they're regular large blasts at strength 4. They are fast vehicles, so they can move 12" and fire at full effect with one multi-laser and 2 rocket pods.

 

But the rocket pods are 24".

[Warp Angel]

One small miss there warp angel.

Valkyries with rocket pods are not ord, they're regular large blasts at strength 4. They are fast vehicles, so they can move 12" and fire at full effect with one multi-laser and 2 rocket pods.

 

But the rocket pods are 24".

 

Not a miss. I said "appreciable" firepower. As a guard player, the rocket pods are yawningly ineffective against Marines without putting yourself in a compromising position.

[minigun762]

Yeah I think we have to assume that the Vendetta is the more feared of the Skimmers when it comes to Marines.

 

Having said that, the Valkyrie is a great little buy for other armies and I expect to see more of them once the new Tyrnaid's codex comes out.

 

Throw in what a lord can do and a 5 man squad with a champion, led by a Lord is going to average two glancing or penetrating hits for the squad, plus what the lord does. Squadron rules says that hits are allocated across the squadron, so that means that you should be able to at least shake, and possibly destroy more than one vehicle in the assault phase.

 

As I'm sure you're well aware of Warp, Chaos are very hesitant to invest heavily in Bikers because they suffer alot of drawbacks compared to Loyalist versions.

The squad you mentioned above is going to set you back anywhere from 350-400 points depending on unit loadout and HQ options.

For those same points, we could field a Daemon Prince and 2 Termicide squads which would be arugably more effective in the same role.

 

I could see the arguement being made about "Bikercide" squads of 3 guys and 2 Meltaguns for 120ish points but 3x that is hard to justify.

[Warp Angel]

They fill the same role as a termicide squad at the smaller sizes, and you don't NEED a lord to be effective. Even 4 unassisted bikers should land at least one glance or pen, before fist or meltas. And even at small squad sizes should own guard vets in hand to hand.

[minigun762]

Would it be useful to try and ignore them, the same way we do with Monoliths?

[Brother Nihm]

The question is, depending on their kill ratio (and the mission), can we afford to?

Monoliths are slow, not very 'killy' (even with the arc), and costly. Everything that the air-cav isn't.

[HERO]

I'd like to mention that IG Mech right now with Chimeras w/ Vets, 3x Vendettas, 2x Manticores and 3x Leman Russes is impossibly hard for non-tailored Marines to beat (all Marines, not just CSM).