SamaNagol Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I am interested to hear yours, and of course others' experiences with running the 2 LR 3 Rhino build at 1500pts with specific reference to how to utilise the ISTs in Rhinos in both KP and Objective missions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Mounted melta ISTs are all about de-meching your opponent. You want to strand your opponent's meltas (or other AP 1 weaponry) before it gets to your hammer units riding around in your land raiders. So be aggressive with them. Kill land speeders, gang up on bike units and use your rhinos to put up blocks so they can't actually get to your raiders until you are in position to unload on them with your GKs and GKTs. Rush forward to block and slag enemy melta/Rhino or melta/Chimera units. And never forget that meltas are assault weapons, which is another great advantage they have over plasma. After slagging a transport with 4 melta guns from a pair of IST units, for example, you can then assault the stranded infantry and hold them up while you get your hammers into position. There are many many tactical uses of IST units. Experience will teach you what to do when against which opponent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2159539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asher Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Well as you said, it really depends on the mission. In a multiple objective game, I tend to play my IST's a little more conservatively due to the fact that I may need them around to hold an objective. Other than that, they are dispensable cruise missles designed to eliminate armor and give my Raiders free reign of the battlefield. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2159615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 A question about Rhinos. If the Rhino counts as "open topped" does that mean BOTH meltas can fire, vs a "closed" rhino with only 1 fire point? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2159850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 A question about Rhinos. If the Rhino counts as "open topped" does that mean BOTH meltas can fire, vs a "closed" rhino with only 1 fire point? Historically, you could fire both Meltas out of the single fire point. At times it has been specifically noted as accommodating two gunners. In fairness, you should be able to fire both even without the 'Open Topped' Drawback. Were it truly open topped I'd be arguing for a volley of Las-fire supplementing a flamer drive by, or using them as a plasma pill-box, hearkening back to the early days of Third. No, the 'Open Topped'ness only kicks in on your opponents turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2159993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 22, 2009 Author Share Posted October 22, 2009 Show me where it says 'open topped' only kicks in in the opponents turn. Thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2160079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Show me where it says 'open topped' only kicks in in the opponents turn. Thanks.This, good sir, is not a path I'd advise going down. I do not recommend being that pedantic about the rules. I'd cite the Fourth Book of the Astronomicon, page 50, contemporary to the current deamon and witch hunters codice as a precedent for interpretation. Further, and perhaps more compelling, box at the top of pg 33 of the which hunter book, the same side bar that makes our transports truly exclusive. They only count as being open topped for purposes of being attacked. Suffice to say, it only becomes open topped after your shots have been fired. After any models have disembarked and established that they've disembarked from an enclosed transport, and after you've calculated the number of shots you can fire. I suppose I would make it open topped in time for your own assault phase if you were so foolish as to shoot while embarked and not assault or move your tank away. I digress that as something of a 'Greybeard' in this hobby, I forget that not everyone has 'Grown up' with the rules and that interpretation doctrines that may have been common place five years ago are now obscure references to arcane documents of dubious standing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2160099 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 22, 2009 Author Share Posted October 22, 2009 I'm 28 and have been playing since RT. :D And when GW openly encourages us to use 'Kills outright' Force Weapons and 4+ Storm Shields which only work against one opponent, I am afraid I have to use exactly what the DH Codex says. Which is... Daemonhunters Rhino: It has one firepoint. It does not specify what that firepoint is. The chimera has 2 firepoints, again unspecified. In the current SM and SW dexes it states that the firepoint is the top hatch, however this is not the case in the DH book. It goes on to say in the box above the unit entries that 'A Rhino or Chimera using it's top hatch as a fire point will count as being open topped if the saving throw of any of its passengers is worse than 3+'. We know this is a reference to an out dated rule, but it is very clear in its wording. If any of the passengers have a saving throw of worse than 3+ it counts as being open topped. There is no restriction on counts as being open topped. As we have seen in the new Space Wolves book with Logan and Wolf Guard, 'counts as' without any limitations means they take on all the rules and properties of that description. I bring your attention to page 70 of the BRB: OPEN-TOPPED TRANSPORT VEHICLESOpen topped vehicles do not have specific fire points. Instead, all passengers in an open topped vehicle may fire, measuring range and line of sight from the hull of the vehicle By RAW you may EITHER fire one weapon from a fire point and benefit from the usual protection of the Rhino, or if you choose to use the top hatch of the vehicle as a firepoint all models may fire as it counts as open topped and therefor follows all rules for open topped vehicles. Whilst this is completely different from the current ruling for Rhinos, it is very clearly spelled out in the rules as written. And it is no different from our completely different Force Weapons, Hurricane Bolters, Machine Spirit and Storm Shields which exist in many other Codices working in different ways. It does not matter what was intended until it is FAQed and made law. RAW is the law of the game. It's not 'gamesmanship' or being beardy or what have you, it is just what is written. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2160137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
glsn Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 *CLAPS* I've never seen that before, and I like it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2160215 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lungboy Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Show me where it says 'open topped' only kicks in in the opponents turn. Thanks.This, good sir, is not a path I'd advise going down. I do not recommend being that pedantic about the rules. I'd cite the Fourth Book of the Astronomicon, page 50, contemporary to the current deamon and witch hunters codice as a precedent for interpretation. Further, and perhaps more compelling, box at the top of pg 33 of the which hunter book, the same side bar that makes our transports truly exclusive. They only count as being open topped for purposes of being attacked. Suffice to say, it only becomes open topped after your shots have been fired. After any models have disembarked and established that they've disembarked from an enclosed transport, and after you've calculated the number of shots you can fire. I suppose I would make it open topped in time for your own assault phase if you were so foolish as to shoot while embarked and not assault or move your tank away. As SamaNagol says, the DH codex has no further details on when the Rhino becomes opened topped. This is very different to the Witch Hunters codex, which specifies it is only open-topped during the opposition's shooting phase. As these books were released very close to each other, it is possible that this difference was intended. Either way, i can see no RAW argument to stop a full IST squad or Inquisitorial retinue firing from a Daemon Hunter Rhino. It's something that will need to be discussed prior to a game though, and my gaming group has already ruled it as ok. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2160624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
avatar8481 Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Or use Chimeras, get a whole boatload of extra weapons (3shot S6 dakka and a HF, +1AV and a second fire point, eliminating the need to ever broach open-topped as an issue. And for only what, 35 points more? Admitted it suggests slightly different tactics, (less "rhino-of-fury" run and gun and more, "I'm a little bunker, short and stout"), and so is a personal choice, but that's what I do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2160926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asher Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 SamaNagol seems completely correct in his description of the rules. However, I would make this very clear to an opponent prior to starting a game to keep it fair. Casual games within your gaming group can be whatever you want them to be, typically everyone in my group plays a Rhino as a Codex: Space Marine Rhino, however, your group may not. I'm not judging, just simply saying you should clarify obscure rules prior to beginning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2161004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 ... And when GW openly encourages us to use 'Kills outright' Force Weapons and 4+ Storm Shields which only work against one opponent, I am afraid I have to use exactly what the DH Codex says. Which is... Daemonhunters Rhino: ... By RAW ... It does not matter what was intended until it is FAQed and made law. RAW is the law of the game. It's not 'gamesmanship' or being beardy or what have you, it is just what is written. ... And so I step into your 'Trick' argument. At what point during the posts prior to my initial answer were 'Deamon Hunter Rhino's' specified? Regardless, arguing the ambiguity of what the 'one fire point is' (I'd suggest that it is supposed to be the top hatch, but this is another discussion) is many of the things you decry it not being at the end of your post. We could go further and launch a ridiculous case about it not specifying what the three access points are, and if you were to start a game under your spurious precepts I would counter that none of the fire points or access points are defined in the codex, and therefore can not be used, just like any other rule that references out dated information. Further, neither are the fire/access points on any such Land Raiders or Chimeras. While it might be suggested that they refer to the models hatches, this isn't expressly stated. If RAW is LAW, you can't get in or out of a Land Raider, the hatches aren't defined. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2161236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 23, 2009 Author Share Posted October 23, 2009 I have no idea what you are talking about. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2161415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 I have no idea what you are talking about.Sure you don't. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2161437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 23, 2009 Author Share Posted October 23, 2009 And so I step into your 'Trick' argument. At what point during the posts prior to my initial answer were 'Deamon Hunter Rhino's' specified? This whole topic is about Daemonhunters' Rhinos. Regardless, arguing the ambiguity of what the 'one fire point is' (I'd suggest that it is supposed to be the top hatch, but this is another discussion) is many of the things you decry it not being at the end of your post. Firepoints are specified in later iterations of codices. They are not specified in the DH book for either the Rhino or Chimera however. Whilst the separate box at the top of the page mentions the top hatch being used, it uses wording which refers to 3rd and 4th Edition rulesets. Even if the 1 firepoint on the Rhino is the top hatch, it clearly states that using said top hatch as a firepoint makes the vehicle 'count as open topped'. This is very clear. If we therefor go by the assumption that the Top hatch is the only firepoint available, then all that would do is remove the possibility to fire a single weapon from a firepoint and avoid the open-topped ruling. You would only be able to fire out of the top hatch, and the vehicle would count as open topped. We could go further and launch a ridiculous case about it not specifying what the three access points are, and if you were to start a game under your spurious precepts I would counter that none of the fire points or access points are defined in the codex, and therefore can not be used, just like any other rule that references out dated information. Further, neither are the fire/access points on any such Land Raiders or Chimeras. While it might be suggested that they refer to the models hatches, this isn't expressly stated. This is exactly correct, and access points on vehicles need to be specified and agreed on before the game. There are different marks of Rhino and Land Raider variants which all have differently positioned Access Points. However as long as you specify what they are before the game, you may use them as such. If RAW is LAW, you can't get in or out of a Land Raider, the hatches aren't defined. Not defining where the access points are on the vehicle does not mean that you cannot use them, it means you need to define them before the game. This is a throwback to 'DIY' vehicles and their rules. It even relates to the different positioning of the sponsons and hatches on the Land Raider which can either be to the fore or the back. The reason why there is an ambiguity in the rules for DH Rhinos and firepoints is the wording very clearly states they count as open topped vehicles. And in the current 5th edition rule book it states that open topped transports allow ALL models to fire weapons and that ranges are measured from the hull. It is no different to our old rule for Force Weapons (kills outright) working in a completely unique way with a current rule set (Eternal Warrior). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2161460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 This topic has veered quite dangerously close to being hostile a couple of times now. Please keep it civil so I won't be forced to close it and/or issue warnings. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2161531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 24, 2009 Author Share Posted October 24, 2009 And it is meant to be more about tactics, ploys and tricks rather than rule debates. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2161536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rat of vengence Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 There is no restriction on counts as being open topped. As we have seen in the new Space Wolves book with Logan and Wolf Guard, 'counts as' without any limitations means they take on all the rules and properties of that description. So you can assault from that rhino according to your logic. It is, after all, open topped... RAW is the law of the game. It's not 'gamesmanship' or being beardy or what have you, it is just what is written. And here was me thinking there was a 'Most important rule'... RoV Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2161696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 Firepoints are specified in later iterations of codices. They are not specified in the DH book for either the Rhino or Chimera however. Whilst the separate box at the top of the page mentions the top hatch being used, it uses wording which refers to 3rd and 4th Edition rulesets. ...So, when it is convent, and serves our purposes, we can invoke precedents from previous rules sets? I do clearly recall earlier mention about how this was only the codex and its interactions with fifth ed.This is exactly correct, and access points on vehicles need to be specified and agreed on before the game. There are different marks of Rhino and Land Raider variants which all have differently positioned Access Points. However as long as you specify what they are before the game, you may use them as such.I beg to differ my good man. Surveying the recent materials on my desk, the current editions of Codexs Guard, Marines, and Eldar, they all define what portion of the model is considered what form of access. Nor do I recall anything in the pre-game sequence in the rule book about indicating what is what on models. No, it's just a regrettable interaction of the old book and the new rules and the inadmissibility of the Chapter qApproved annuals that used to contain the definitions. Given the intervention of the moderator here, and the fact that we're likely to never play each other, I think we shall have to agree to disagree here. If we accept the 'it counts as open topped in all ways' interpretation, if something poorly armoured shoots from it, I suppose it could allow for some shady shenanigans regarding disembarking an independent character and shooting with the squad making it open topped so that the character, having disembarked from what is now an open topped transport, could assault. Mind you, it also doesn't mention when the open-toppedness ends. This could lead to it being some brand of assault platform, if the claim is made that it lasts until the end of the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2161708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 24, 2009 Author Share Posted October 24, 2009 You did chop the end of the sentence off. I was referring to 3rd and 4th edition of the game because the wording refers to an older edition and therefor opens it to a new interpretation as 5th Ed has new rules for Open Topped Transports. If we are to look at the DH Rhino in a wider sense, not just RAW but how it will actually affect play, you will probably only take advantage of the Rhino's open topped ruling to fire an extra special weapon out of the top, or as you mentioned earlier, to fire all of the Hellguns along with a Plasma gun to get anti-infantry shots. If it is being used to fire a second Meltagun then that would make it no different to the current C:SM Rhino (2 firepoints) but with the drawback of +1 to damage rolls. This isn't particularly game-breaking. But then that is just me justifying it's use in my mind. I have seen people argue about claiming an extra attack from a Storm Shield but I personally wouldn't try and argue that as I find it to be a bit....cheap. However, the only thing which actually matters when resolving rules are the RAW. Those rules clearly state that if you fire out of the top hatch, the vehicle counts as open topped. That would last until you do something to change that. That would be your next shooting phase, you either fire out of the top hatch again and it counts as open topped, or you do not and it does not. So by RAW, yes you could also assault out of the vehicle. Thankfully this cannot be abused by putting 8 man units of PAGK inside and using it as a 50 pt assault vehicle with super Smoke Launchers, because their 3+ save stops it being open topped. And yes, you do need to specify access points on vehicles. My Mk2 Heresy pattern Land Raider has different hatch positioning to my LRC which also has different hatch positioning to my RT era small size Land Raider. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2161769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rat of vengence Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 However, the only thing which actually matters when resolving rules are the RAW. Those rules clearly state that if you fire out of the top hatch, the vehicle counts as open topped. That would last until you do something to change that. That would be your next shooting phase, you either fire out of the top hatch again and it counts as open topped, or you do not and it does not. So by RAW, yes you could also assault out of the vehicle. Thankfully this cannot be abused by putting 8 man units of PAGK inside and using it as a 50 pt assault vehicle with super Smoke Launchers, because their 3+ save stops it being open topped. If your reading of the rules says that a IST squad can assault out of a rhino at any point, then I suggest that the problem lies with the way you are interpreting the rules. And yes, you do need to specify access points on vehicles. My Mk2 Heresy pattern Land Raider has different hatch positioning to my LRC which also has different hatch positioning to my RT era small size Land Raider. Can't we assign access points to the bleedin obvious? Like, that big hatch, the door on the side of the tank? Do we need to have a discussion about how the door is in fact a door? RoV Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2161926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 24, 2009 Author Share Posted October 24, 2009 I didn't write the rules. That's what they say. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2162079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 Time for a cooling off period. Possibly reopened at a future date according to my discretion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182536-number-6-your-use-of-istsinquisitors-in-rhino/#findComment-2162165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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