Best Codex For Pre-Heresy = Space Wolves?

[KP13]

I just got the new Space Wolf Codex and have given it a quick look, but so far it looks as if it might be the best way to represent a Pre-Heresy force?

 

Powerful, Highly Customizable HQ Characters

Customizable Characters (Wolf Guard) that can be placed in other squads

Highly Customizable Terminators (who can take power weapons!)

Larger Squad sizes (Bloodclaws)

Very capable/flexible "Tactical Marines" in Grey Hunters

 

So far, so good...

 

What does anyone else think?

 

Is this now the best codex to use to represent a pre-Heresy Marine force?

[Firenze]

No. Its too assault orientated. Id actually stick with the basic Marine dex. Although, it also depends on the legion.

[Tyrannicide]

I'm not trying to be a thorn in your side, but it seems that too many people are trying to force the Space Wolves Codex into something it isn't meant to be. I see many people enthused over this new 'dex and all who aren't playing Space Wolves that would prefer to use the book, try to cut corners and use the powerful list for other armies, such as the Iron Hands, or now, Pre-Heresy forces. I'm by no means a gamer, and you can obviously use the Codex in any way you'd like, but I'd personally stick to the Space Marine Codex. If you find more enjoyment in using the SW Codex, then by all means do what pleases you the most. I'm not trying to dissuade you from using what makes your army work, rather I just don't approve of all these unneeded 'counts-as' lists. What lies beyond all this, is that 40k is a game meant to be fun, not stressful. :D

[Jonas Stromclaw]

Depends on the legion. Pre Heresy space wolves (of course), world eaters (its excellent for this), and maybe white scars or night lords if you stretch it. Just make sure your army is believable.

[KP13]

I'm not trying to be a thorn in your side, but it seems that too many people are trying to force the Space Wolves Codex into something it isn't meant to be. I see many people enthused over this new 'dex and all who aren't playing Space Wolves that would prefer to use the book, try to cut corners and use the powerful list for other armies, such as the Iron Hands, or now, Pre-Heresy forces. I'm by no means a gamer, and you can obviously use the Codex in any way you'd like, but I'd personally stick to the Space Marine Codex. If you find more enjoyment in using the SW Codex, then by all means do what pleases you the most. I'm not trying to dissuade you from using what makes your army work, rather I just don't approve of all these unneeded 'counts-as' lists. What lies beyond all this, is that 40k is a game meant to be fun, not stressful. :)

 

 

Er, I was doing this based on theme and background, not to mention modeling and painting.

 

Not sure where you're finding all the "win at all costs" and "this is more than a game" angst.

 

Either way, 40K has long since become more of a hobby than a game for me.

 

Additionally, GW has been telling us that we're living in the Golden Age of Counts As. You aren't forgetting The Most Important Rule, are you? ;)

 

But, thanks for the input!

[ArcticFox]

Powerful, Highly Customizable HQ Characters

Customizable Characters (Wolf Guard) that can be placed in other squads

Highly Customizable Terminators (who can take power weapons!)

Larger Squad sizes (Bloodclaws)

Very capable/flexible "Tactical Marines" in Grey Hunters

 

I hate to do it but I must speak up for the "thorn in your side team." :)

 

What I mean is, I'm not sure why the high degree of customization of the various units is what defines it as a good pre-heresy 'dex. The Legions varied in their structures, so the Wolf book might be good for the World Eaters (as was mentioned earlier) but I don't see it as being particularly useful for, say, the Emperor's Children, Luna Wolves or Ultramarines pre-heresy.

 

If you're looking for the flexibility for fluff purposes (as in, not being bound by the Codex Astartes) then I'd suggest either the Chaos Space Marine 'dex (sans Chaos material) or maybe the Black Templars. (Of the two, I'd favor the CSM book because it deals directly with Legions organized pre-heresy and you don't have to worry about anachronistic wargear.

[DeSnifter]

The wolves are great dex for representing a mixed force, ie when the legions fought together. The wolves codex is perfect to make an istvaan army. Blood claws and swift claws representing world eaters. Grey hunteres representing death guard and emperors children. Logan could represent abbadon, ulrik as loken, lukas as torgaddon, ragnar as Khârn, njal as malgohurst (a stretch i know)

[DeSnifter]

The wolves are great dex for representing a mixed force, ie when the legions fought together. The wolves codex is perfect to make an istvaan army. Blood claws and swift claws representing world eaters. Grey hunteres representing death guard and emperors children. Logan could represent abbadon, ulrik as loken, lukas as torgaddon, ragnar as Khârn, njal as malgohurst (a stretch i know)

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm not trying to be a thorn in your side, but it seems that too many people are trying to force the Space Wolves Codex into something it isn't meant to be. I see many people enthused over this new 'dex and all who aren't playing Space Wolves that would prefer to use the book, try to cut corners and use the powerful list for other armies, such as the Iron Hands, or now, Pre-Heresy forces. I'm by no means a gamer, and you can obviously use the Codex in any way you'd like, but I'd personally stick to the Space Marine Codex. If you find more enjoyment in using the SW Codex, then by all means do what pleases you the most. I'm not trying to dissuade you from using what makes your army work, rather I just don't approve of all these unneeded 'counts-as' lists. What lies beyond all this, is that 40k is a game meant to be fun, not stressful. :D

 

 

Er, I was doing this based on theme and background, not to mention modeling and painting.

 

Not sure where you're finding all the "win at all costs" and "this is more than a game" angst.

 

Either way, 40K has long since become more of a hobby than a game for me.

 

No, he is right, you have a case of the new and shiny. Blood Claws are poor representations of Pre-Heresy Marines, as power armor was not given to subpar assault unit. Tactical Squads in the Heresy didn't have the BP, CS, Bolter combo. Nor was every captain a near primarch. If you want to do one of the Assault Legions sure, try this. It wont work for anyone but Space Wolves, but your welcome to try.

 

Additionally, GW has been telling us that we're living in the Golden Age of Counts As. You aren't forgetting The Most Important Rule, are you? ;)

 

But, thanks for the input!

 

No, he isn't. What you have done is taken counts as and bent it to be more powerful. What is wrong with using Codex: Chaos Space Marines to represent an Assault Legion, or Codex: Space Marines to represent the others? Nothing. Feel free to do what you want, but don't try and make it different :) .

[Tyrannicide]

Either way, if I'm 'right' or not, I didn't mean to insinuate that you were in it for power gaming or ruthlessly crushing your opponents KP13. So my apologies if I didn't make that part of my post clear enough. However, M2C did suggest that you have the 'new and shiny' syndrome, and in that he's correct. You do. You like the list and new special characters, and would like to somehow shape these into a set of rules that you could run your Pre-Heresy force with. And that's perfectly fine. I had that feeling when the new Space Wolves came out too, it's normal and everyone is excited for the hyped Codex. I don't blame you for wanting to use it, I understand the feeling. :D

[KP13]

I can see we're going to have to agree to disagree here...

 

Thanks for the opinions and input though!

[Pacific81]

I would agree its very much an option!

 

Shaping a pre-heresy force is very much down to conception of how a legion was during various points in the Crusade or Heresy. It is certainly an option for an 'assault' orientated legion (WE, SW, BA etc.) - I use the BA codex for my World Eaters, but you could equally use this or even the Black Templar codex. The caveat is that you make some effort into the modelling and force selection side of things - so to your opponents it is immediately obvious why those units in your PH legion have the same rules as those in the SW codex. Obviously, there will be some aspects of the codex which would be very hard to justify (characters riding giant wolves being one example!)

 

Which legion were you planning on creating? If there is some idea of the character of legion, then it makes the job of choosing a codex alot easier.

[Volth]

Is this now the best codex to use to represent a pre-Heresy Marine force?

The best codex to represent pre-heresy Marine forces would be that of chaos Space Marines. You can make up very large squad sizes (15<) and have tons of autocannons. Those are two very pre-heretic features, no other Marine codex can offer.

[Pacific81]

And you also don't get a TON of stuff that the other, loyalist codexes can offer

 

- whirlwinds, land speeders, attack bikes, land raider options, predator options, assault marine jump pack options (chaos have raptors, but 'hit & run' doesnt seem representative of general PH assault troops), using special characters in the SM codex to further tailor your force. I'm sure if I wanted to spend more time doing so I could at least double the length of that list.

 

The only time I can imagine the chaos dex being appropriate is for World Eater forces during or after the seige of terra, where you want to represent a berserker force, or the Emperor's children/death guard for similar reasons. But, of course then why not just make a 40k chaos force as many of the traitor legions at that time were closer to that archetype? Many people collect PH because of how markedly different they were back then, and that kind of defeats the object!

 

As for autocannons, I've yet to have any complaint about giving them the same points cost as missile launchers in a game, and you can take this a step further and use the tempus fugitives campaign rules if you wanted for larger squad sizes.

[Legatus]

- whirlwinds, land speeders, attack bikes, land raider options, predator options, assault marine jump pack options (chaos have raptors, but 'hit & run' doesnt seem representative of general PH assault troops)

And half of that list is stuff a pre heresy force should not have anyway, so the Chas Codex does work out quite well.

[Pacific81]

All of those I put in the list were around pre-heresy, I'm going from whats featured in Collected Visions... (I've just realised the 2 landraider varients aren't pre-heresy, but there is some argument for having tanks which fulfilled similar functions pre-heresy, in the same way its easy to justify a razorback equivalent etc.)

 

There is also:

Dreadnought varients, land speeder tornado, drop pods , more varied terminator armaments, conversion beamers, scout squads, even thunderhawk gunships *cough* :)

 

I guess it all comes down to what kind of force you want to represent, and far be it from me to say not to use the Chaos codex, but for me in the majority of cases that book is the equivalent to putting a collecting and modelling straight-jacket on yourself.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Theoretically the SW Codex would be the most Great Crusade relevant, because everyones favourite Fenrisian decided not to bow to the Codex Astartes.

 

But in practice... Nuh uh uh!!!!

[Legatus]

All of those I put in the list were around pre-heresy, I'm going from whats featured in Collected Visions...

I think there are a lot of errors in collected visions. AFAIK there were no Land Speeders, Assault Cannons or Scouts during the great crusade or the heresy. (You did not list Assault Cannons, but IIRC they are shown in the artbooks, so I listed them as an example where the book is wrong).

 

whirlwinds, land speeders, attack bikes, land raider options, predator options, assault marine jump pack options (chaos have raptors, but 'hit & run' doesnt seem representative of general PH assault troops)

Dreadnought varients, land speeder tornado, drop pods , more varied terminator armaments, conversion beamers, scout squads, even thunderhawk gunships

 

--> Whirlwinds, Attack Bikes

 

- not sure about those, whether they were available

 

 

--> Land Speeders, Predator Options (Anihilator?), land speeder tornado, scouts

 

- they were not around during the heresy, IIRC

 

 

--> land raider options, dreadnought variants, conversion beamers

 

- loyalists don't even need those, so I would not say a pre heresy Codex needs them. Obviously a pre heresy/heresy force would not have venerable dreadnought, since there were no old and experienced dreadnoughts at that time. I assume Ironclads were developed later, so they probably would not have been available either

 

 

--> Jump packs

 

- Raptors do not have "hit & run", you may not be up to date with your rules.

 

 

--> Thunderhawk gunships

 

- not in Codex Space Marines either

 

 

--> Drop Pods

 

- that one actually makes sense, congratulations

[DaemonPrinceDargor]

Actually the guy behind the Collected Visions in Alan Merrett,and the HH novels that are being written are pretty much based on its storyline so it is the right source for information.

 

 

--> Whirlwinds, Attack Bikes

 

- Yes they were availiable,there is no source that says otherwise.

 

 

--> Land Speeders, Predator Options (Anihilator?), land speeder tornado, scouts

 

- Of course they were(minus the Annihilator),there is even a land speeder on the cover of "Fulgrim".

 

--> land raider options, dreadnought variants, conversion beamers

 

- Veterans of the Unification wars inside Dreadnoughts are venerable in my eyes,what with the Crusade lasting for 200 or so years and them being at it from the begining.The Ironclad is just new in the codex,not in the storyline.If the dreadnoughts in the chaos codex can have 2 ccw,then they also had them back then.

 

-->Assault cannons were also around pre-heresy but only mounted on vehicles.The BA's Baal predator is from that time,they found the STC during the Crusade.

 

 

Basically i know what you mean mate,but remember that most of the old fluff(2nd for example) got retconned since GW started paying more attention to the Heresy storyline.From what we get from the books,technology back then was actually working as it should,inventing new stuff and reclaiming old STCs.That leaves the 40k technology as ancient and precious relics,that cannot be easily reproduced once lost.

 

On the OP's question i think that the best codexes for Pre-heresy now are the Marine codex and the Wolf codex(leaving out all the specific SW stuff).The Chaos codex has too much daemonic stuff in it,and be sure that the Legions back then was not like the Chaos Legions of today.

 

 

Cheers! :woot:

[Octavulg]

Whirlwinds appeared in Space Marine, the game that was meant to represent the Horus Heresy.

 

Land Speeders are questionable. There is weight to both arguments.

[Legatus]

Basically i know what you mean mate,but remember that most of the old fluff(2nd for example) got retconned since GW started paying more attention to the Heresy storyline.

I can understand (and would expect) people doubting 1st Edition sources, but I never know whether I should chuckle or shake my head when someone says that 2nd Edition fluff is outdated, seeing as the current Codex Blood Angels, Codex Dark Angels, Codex Space Marines and Codex Chaos Space Marines are copying large sections straight out of the 2nd Edition Codices.

 

there is even a land speeder on the cover of "Fulgrim".

Which, just like "collected visions", is Black Library material, which not allways agrees with Games Workshop material.

 

-->Assault cannons were also around pre-heresy but only mounted on vehicles.The BA's Baal predator is from that time,they found the STC during the Crusade.

That is interresting, and I have to look into the baal predator background. IIRC the assault cannon background specifically points out that it was developed after the heresy to replace the autocannons.

[DaemonPrinceDargor]

Basically i know what you mean mate,but remember that most of the old fluff(2nd for example) got retconned since GW started paying more attention to the Heresy storyline.

I can understand (and would expect) people doubting 1st Edition sources, but I never know whether I should chuckle or shake my head when someone says that 2nd Edition fluff is outdated, seeing as the current Codex Blood Angels, Codex Dark Angels, Codex Space Marines and Codex Chaos Space Marines are copying large sections straight out of the 2nd Edition Codices.

 

 

I didnt say that all of it is outdated mate,in earlier editions we knew only the basic stuff that happened during the Heresy but with each edition more and more information became availiable.Like the IA articles in 3rd.I can understand GW retconning some inconsistences in order to make the storyline smoother,like the game the story also evolves.Btw,since the HH books are official GW material since the authors writting them are ever under the watchfull eye of mr Merrett ,and we all know that if there is someone in GW to have a say about new or old fluff,its him.

 

 

Cheers! :P

[Volth]

--> Whirlwinds

 

- Yes they were availiable,there is no source that says otherwise.

Actually Codex: Space Marines, 4th ed., says that whirlwhind design comes from an STC recovered after the heresy according to: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Whirlwind

 

--> dreadnought variants

 

- Veterans of the Unification wars inside Dreadnoughts are venerable in my eyes,what with the Crusade lasting for 200 or so years and them being at it from the begining.

Veterans in 40k-scale don't count centuries, rather than millenia. In my eyes.

 

.. the Wolf codex(leaving out all the specific SW stuff).The Chaos codex has too much daemonic stuff in it

Know what I mean?

[DaemonPrinceDargor]

http://z15.invisionfree.com/The_Great_Crus...p?showtopic=883

 

and

 

http://z15.invisionfree.com/The_Great_Crus...c=883&st=40

 

 

There you go,thats all the justification i need.Thats GW material,the latest ones and thats the ones i go by.Of course if anyone doesnt agree because this is BL or that is FW,then i would just not play that guy with my pre-heresy army.

 

Cheers and no offence guys! :)

[Volth]

Pretty good! Thanks for the link. I think C:CSM represents pre-heretical armys in most cases better than C:SM, simply because latter is "codex astartes-steamlined". From every source I know it says that pre-heretical Space Marine forces operate in great numbers of mighty warriors, the codex astartes model seems too task-force-like to me.